HHH, 3 Push/Pulls- 3 on,on,on mini's(NO SELECTOR)

[candyflipper7]

First of all... Hello- I am very new to this site and would like to say "HELLO". I have been on this site reading forums for almost a little over a month now reading about HHH schemes, but have not come to anything with my project I am about to take on "or " preparing to take on. So I have come to the experts here a GN2.


I would like to wire and build:


Swimming Pool Strat Body with 2 point Trem. (Body from: Guitar Fetish- Body has 56 mm Neck Pocket)
Custom Pick guard from Warmoth- Cut for 3 Humbucker - Bridge Humbucker: (Angled)


I would like to use 3 humbucker's instead of 3 Single coils set up some what like a Super Strat but more options.

I am Using for the: Swimming Pool Cavity, And Pickguard:

Neck: Dragonfire Sealed Chrome HB 8.3k
w/ Treble bleed kit - and a .022 oil in paper euro kt 1800, 160 vdc capacitor

Middle: GFS Lipstick Humbucker 9k
w/ Treble bleed kit - and a .022 oil in paper euro kt 1800, 160 vdc capacitor (Same as above)


Bridge: Dragonfire Sealed Chrome HB 16.9k
w/ Treble bleed kit - .047 Orange Drop Cap
*(Optional add on Black Ice, On board Distortion Cap) (Lowest setting)


All of the Humbuckers have 4 wires and grounds

I would like to have for each Humbucker:

Neck: 500k Push/Pull Pot - To use for Volume Push and Pull to switch
In Phase-Out of Phase

Middle Lipstick Humbucker: 500k Push/Pull Pot - To use for Volume Push and Pull to switch
In Phase-Out of Phase

Bridge: 500k Push/Pull Pot - To use for Volume Push and Pull to switch
In Phase-Out of Phase


Then I would like to eliminate a 5 way all together and use:

3 - DP3t mini toggles On/On/On

Neck: To Select between- Outter Coil, Inner Coil And last position Full Humbucker

Middle Lipstick: Outter Coil, Inner Coil And last position Full Humbucker


Bridge: Outter Coil, Inner Coil And last position Full Humbucker


"I know there has been alot of HHH questions here in the forum of GN2. I am not experienced enough to piece together all of the Schemes from here, and Seymour W. Duncan's site to figure this out as this will be my first build and wiring project ever. Any help, suggestions and Wiring Diagrams, Schemes, drawings and advice will be so great! I know this sounds like alot and maybe a really far shot but I would really like to see this project come to life."

Oh, and by the way does an "ANGLED" Humbucker really give higher highs and lower lows? I know they used to do this awhile back and you don't see this that much anymore. Just looking for as many tone possibilities without a 5 way switch or SUPER SWITCH (Not a fan of them never liked them - this is really the reason I would like to build a custom) Thanks in advance for any help that might come out of this.... A drawing would be great!

[newey]

cf7-

Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2!

The key to a design like the one you are seeking is to think of it in terms of modules. The modules for each pickup are the same, in this case. If we give you the individual modules, you can then string them together quite easily into a complete wiring diagram.

And, in the process, you'll pick up some understanding of how it all fits together and works.

But, before we get started, a few clarifications are needed:

Neck: To Select between- Outter Coil, Inner Coil And last position Full Humbucker

Is the order of these selections important? If the full HB was to be in the center position, could you live with that?

I would like to have for each Humbucker:
Neck: 500k Push/Pull Pot - To use for Volume Push and Pull to switch
In Phase-Out of Phase

Can I assume this phase switch is intended to put the neck pickup OOP with the other pickups, as opposed to putting the 2 coils of the neck HB OOP with each other (Not a useful option, IMHO . . .)

If my assumption is correct, I should also point out that having a phase switch on each pickup is redundant*, as putting phase switches on any 2 of the 3 pups will give you all possible OOP sounds. You could use the third P/P pot for something else, or simplify your wiring by just omitting it.

Each HB will be wired, modularly, as follows:

Pickup ----->DPDT On-On-On coil selector---->Phase switch---->Vol. Pot----->output jack. Although, as above, you may want to omit a phase switch somewhere.

* Yeah, I know, the Brian May guitar has three phase switches, and folks here have argued in the past that it aids in quickly switching to OOP sounds for stage work to have the 3 switches. I'm not buying that explanation, it's still an unneeded redundancy, and can actually make it easier to end up back in phase when one meant to get an OOP sound.

[candyflipper7]

First off..."Thank-you so much for replying NEWEY." Means alot that you have taken time to check the forum for newbies like me and experienced players as well.

1. "Yes", I would love the Middle Position Pick-up to be the full HB as this is the one I want to work around. Just didn't know how to go about that.

2. My original plan was to actually only have 2 Push/Pulls and have a 500 k Master volume with a treble bleed kit if I needed it. I have been doing a lot of research on this, but trying to fit it all together as I have seen "SO MANY" HHH combos but none really omitting the 5 way switch or the Super Switch.


"Can I assume this phase switch is intended to put the neck pickup OOP with the other pickups, as opposed to putting the 2 coils of the neck HB OOP with each other (Not a useful option, IMHO . . .)"

And, also yes....This assumption is correct above.


And I would be satisfied with omitting the middle "phase (toggle switch) from the Middle pickup (Which will be the Lipstick HB)


After reading your suggestions:

*I would like to keep the Middle HB (IN PHASE) but be able to select INNER/OUTTER COILS - FULL HB Option.

And the other 2 - IN & OUT OF PHASE and still have the options of INNER/OUTTER COIL & FULL HB

Possibly just a 500k Volume for Middle PUP? And Push Pull on the other (NECK & BRIDGE)

Sound DO-able? I was trying to keep it simplified actually.... (Nervous Laugh)

Thanks for taking a look at this Newey I am really looking forward to seeing what you think about it. TY for your suggestions they make a lot of sense. That is pretty much how I was thinking of it but didn't know how to express it (LOL) ;D

[newey]

With individual volumes for each pickup, the Master Volume may be problematic. It certainly can be done, but the two volume controls will interact with each other which may not be desireable.

The same is true of having individual volumes with a master tone control. You haven't mentioned a tone control, and since this is to be a Strat, I'm assuming only the three pots total.

What I'll do later today (actual paying work is calling . . .) is draw up a module for one pickup, which you can then expand to the three. You can just omit the mid pup phase switch, as discussed it's a separate module.

Be aware that, since pickups of different types are being used, you'll need to check for phasing first, or you run the risk of the mid GFS pup being OOP with the other two Dragonfires. Thgis means at worst having to reopen the Strat and swap the mid wires around.

[candyflipper7]

Hmmm. Didn't think of that with the master volume. O.k , I would like to not use that option, and use your advise. (Correct) There will be only 3 Knobs 1 for the middle HB and One Push- Pull (each) for the Dragonfire Neck and Bridge HB. Preferably, Would like to use push-pull on each humbucker (the neck & bridge for volume control and tone control) And leave the middle HB (lipstick) as a 500k volume pot. Thank-you for your time. I hate to be a drag on a Sat.

So:

1 (EACH) Push Pull 500k Pot for The Neck & Bridge. I would like to use push-pull, on each humbucker (neck & bridge) for phase in/out & 1 DP3T Mini toggle (each) for coil splitting: inner coil/ outter coil / full HB For the neck and bridge.

1 500k Volume pot for Middle Lipstick ( Would like to leave that as pure as possible with the exception of a treble bleed kit.

"Or" anything close to that, that will be able to coil split HB's in Neck and Bridge (Phase in - Out on HB Neck and Bridge)

And coil options on the middle with "NO PHASE OUT"

And Volume control. Somehow?

[newey]

OK, here's a diagram which suffices as either the "neck pickup module" or the "bridge pickup module". The DPDT switch gives series HB in the center position, with N coil alone in the "Toggle down" position and S coil alone in the "up" position, as you desire. The P/P puts it In/Out of phase, with a volume control.

The middle HB would get the same treatment minus the phase switch. The DPDT output then just goes to the Vol pot "hot" lug and to ground, respectively.

I've shown the grounding done to a screw into the side of the cavity as a grounding point. That's the way to go if you're shielding the cavity. If not, you may want to use the back of a pot shell for the grounding point, which would presumably be the middle pup volume control, since the other two are P/P pots (which have only a very small grounding tab, not a good meeting point for a lot of wires)

The wire colors are SD colors, which are the same as your GFS colors. Not sure about the Dragonfire colors, so you may need to test polarities, as mentioned, and swap colors around to translate the color scheme to that of the diagram.

Two caveats, however:

First, we will need someone to double-check this to be sure it's good to go. I'm a little iffy on whether the Vol pot lugs are shown the right-way around; I've shown the pot upside down, as if you were wiring it from the back.

And second, I'm not happy with one aspect of this scheme. With the S coil operational (i.e., DPDT toggle lever is "up", meaning the bottom two sets of lugs are connected), the N coil is left hanging from hot; it's disconnected at the ground end, but is connected to the output via the purple wire between the upper left and lower right lugs on the switch.

This will work just fine, the S coil will operate in that position, and the N coil won't. But in theory, a "hanging from hot" situation is to be avoided, where possible, since it might generate some added noise.

Or it may not, no way to really tell without trying it. As I said, this is a situation to be avoided where it is possible to do so- and I've looked at this eighteen ways from Sunday and can't see a way around it.

But I'm far from the sharpest knife in the drawer, so maybe someone else can suggest a solution that I'm missing. Anyone?

Other than that, you're good to go. This should allow you to draw up your own diagram to show the complete wiring for all three pups.

[candyflipper7]

;D Thank-you Newey! You have made my day. I truly am very appreciative of the help, and knowledge you have shared with me on beginning this project. I have the electronics already, and just have to order my pick guard from WARMOTH now. The body should be coming this week, but I now have to think about the paint job I would like to have that will match my pick guard. I will be posting pics of this project as it progresses. I am sure I will be back with more questions(LOL) But you really did explain a lot, and clear up some confusion I had regarding wiring. Finding ones own tone from everyone else can be an adventure I a finding out! Once again TY. Have a killer week. As you had mentioned above.....others may have ideas also.

"Two caveats, however:

First, we will need someone to double-check this to be sure it's good to go. I'm a little iffy on whether the Vol pot lugs are shown the right-way around; I've shown the pot upside down, as if you were wiring it from the back.

And second, I'm not happy with one aspect of this scheme. With the S coil operational (i.e., DPDT toggle lever is "up", meaning the bottom two sets of lugs are connected), the N coil is left hanging from hot; it's disconnected at the ground end, but is connected to the output via the purple wire between the upper left and lower right lugs on the switch.

This will work just fine, the S coil will operate in that position, and the N coil won't. But in theory, a "hanging from hot" situation is to be avoided, where possible, since it might generate some added noise.

Or it may not, no way to really tell without trying it. As I said, this is a situation to be avoided where it is possible to do so- and I've looked at this eighteen ways from Sunday and can't see a way around it.

But I'm far from the sharpest knife in the drawer, so maybe someone else can suggest a solution that I'm missing. Anyone?

Other than that, you're good to go. This should allow you to draw up your own diagram to show the complete wiring for all three pups."



I do hope others "do" indeed join in on this topic. As I know I am not the only one interested in Schemes like this, and wiring puzzles like this one are so far from practical.


Thanks Newey for the brainstorming, and if anyone else wants to chime in. Thank-you in advance!

[ashcatlt]

First - with no real pickup selection switch its left to the V controls to weed out unwanted pickups from the overall mix. Now, if could be said that enough attenuation will effectively reduce a pickup's contribution to negligible, but I personally would prefer to actually turn it all the way off. Wired as newey has shown, this is impossible since turning any one V to 0 shorts the jack and leads to complete silence. Those pots will need to be wired "backwards" and you'll just have to live with the consequences.

The other thing - I didn't really bother to suss out the toggle switching there, but I wonder why you're not just shunting the unwanted coils. It might take a little bit of finangling to make sure you get full HB in the middle, but you should be able to keep either coil from hanging by one end.

Edit - yeah, I think you can just move that black wire coming from the pickup down to the common terminal on that side of the switch.

[candyflipper7]

"VOIDED MY POST"

[newey]

Ash is right, a pickup selector would be a desirable thing. As is, wiring the pots backwards would help a bit but still not optimal.

But Cf77, it looks like you've abandoned this scheme entirely, in favor of one with the "freeway Switch"?

That's fine, but I have several questions, First, what's all this now about tone pots?

Previously, you had specified 3 volume pots, one for each pickup. That takes up all three potential spots for pots in a regular Strat pickguard layouts.

But now we're adding tone controls? Where are these going to go?

You can have concentric pots to put a Vol and tone on a dual pot, but there are no concentric pots that also have a push/pull switch attached.

Also, you're now talking about two toggle switches for out-of-phase settings. One does the middle pup, that's fine. The other is specified to do both neck and bridge.

You don't need both. A phase switch on the middle and one on either the neck or the bridge, but not both, will give you all possible OOP combos of three pickups.

If you put both N and B OOP on a single switch, you'll be switching them together, meaning they will stay in phase with each other regardless of which way the switch is flipped. So, that scheme would only allow the middle to be OOP with either the N or the B, but you could never get the N and B OOP with each other. N and B OOP is going to be the most useful OOP setting, that's definitely one you want to have.

[JohnH]

I think neweys diagram will work as he says. If the pickups are covered then the hanging from hot is not a problem.

Ashs idea can be added by putting a link from top right to middle right lugs. Opinion differs on whether this solves this small hanging problem and my view is that it does not.

Thinking of alternatives, theres a way to wire the switch that goes full hb, one coil, other coil, with no hanging from hot. But then when you pull the phase switch, both sc settings have the problem.

Another version has just a 2position toggle for hb and sc and when you pull the phase in sc mode, you get the other sc with no hanging from hot

But from what you have asked for, id stick with neweys diagram and see if the link to do ashs idea helps

[candyflipper7]

@ Newey.... No, No. Not abandoning ( Perfect For Me) (Just a thought) I originally wanted to use (First post, And still do.) Push/Pull for each to use for volume and In/out of Phase. Then started thinking (But not thinking logic) thought I would somehow use the P/P for volume and tone control and switches another way. Started thinking about my response after reading Ashcatlt's response to you and got totally off of subject and the original plan. (thought maybe that would be a simpler way to wire... that's all)
I am still sticking with the original (Which you have drawn out and using the point that Ashcatlt made in response to the drawing about the hanging wire. Sorry guys for any confusion. Just a case of TMI from too much reading on different sites. My Bad.... I am still down with the original plan. I do agree about a pick-up selector but (was wondering about a free-way selector possibly?) As projects go, there are just so many possiblities ( My previous post was obviously confusing to all) Your plan is what I would like to use Newey. TY and sorry for confusing everyone today.

[newey]

OK, if you're going with the original idea, you can consider adding pickup selector switches if you like, and if you have room to fit some.

Given that you don't like 5-ways:

One On-Off could be used to turn the middle pup on/off by itself. One DPDT On-On-On could give you N / N + B / B.

Thus, two simple switches can give you all 7 possible parallel combos of three pickups (that's all the regular 5 Strat selections, plus N + B and "all 3").

Another idea that I'll throw out there. As it is, you've got the ability to select either coil on each HB plus the full HB setting. Being able to select either N or S coil does have the advantage of maximizing hum-cancelling, since you can flip any of the three pups over to the other coil.

But, apart from that, there is not likely to be much difference in sound between the N coil and the S coil. The coils are right next to each other, so the difference in position along the string is minimal; the 2 coils are also, presumably, identical to each other.

So, if you can live without the ability to select N and S coils for each pickup, you could use your 3 DPDT switches to give you HB/SC/Off.
And, by cutting the mid pup to the opposite coil of the N and B pups, you would have at least 2 hum-cancelling SC positions (out of 3 total).

Just a thought.

[candyflipper7]

Newey- This one sounds about right. So I can definately still use the diagram you gave me with this option?


"Another idea that I'll throw out there. As it is, you've got the ability to select either coil on each HB plus the full HB setting. Being able to select either N or S coil does have the advantage of maximizing hum-cancelling, since you can flip any of the three pups over to the other coil.

But, apart from that, there is not likely to be much difference in sound between the N coil and the S coil. The coils are right next to each other, so the difference in position along the string is minimal; the 2 coils are also, presumably, identical to each other."


If so could you possibly help me with the diagram (again?) I know I am asking a bit much. This is the way I am going to go (Final)

TY!

Just need to get more switches, and map out the pick guard with a definate road map of electronics and small hardware.

[newey]

This one sounds about right. So I can definately still use the diagram you gave me with this option?

The DPDT wiring will change if you want an "off" position. No need for more switches.

If you want to do this, here's a module. This just "slots in" to the prior diagram where the DPDT switch is. However, if you want the middle pup to select the other coil for hum-cancelling, as I suggested, then the module for the mid pup will have the wire colors swapped around (swap red with green and black with white).

Now, everything I said earlier about wire colors and needing to test the Dragonfires for polarity still applies.