new (or nu?) fender

[Deleted]

After two months with the ibanez arz800 (LesPaul shape but more modern), and being busy fixing the Kramer 210 (with the floyd rose base plate stripped threads problem) and setting up (at last) the Carvin DC135 (MY88) correctly, finally i caught myself browsing ebay.co.uk for a new strat (i have no fender yet, only strat copies or my own partscaster which, for some reason, i do not like any more).

Whatever i am gonna do, i am gonna do it next summer... just planing ahead. This is a guitar that i will keep for a lifetime (like the rest).

I am a strat-fan, but also a little bit "shreddy" type of player. Would you recommend the american standard or the american deluxe?

I know most of you strat guys love the single coils, but i most probably will go for the HSS. (i can change later anyway, modern standards and deluxe's are H-S-H routed anyway, i can go either way and change pickguard).

Any personal opinions?

PS

most probably i will buy it from the USA. Prices in Greece/Germany suck. Even with taxes it will come cheaper from the USA.

[bowyn]

I'm not terribly knowledgeable about the difference between the American Standard and the Deluxe... I could look up stuff with Google, but I'd rather someone with some hands on knowledge comment on that.

However, as far as pickups go, I have to suggest an HSS setup, but with a HB sized P-90 in the bridge instead of a Humbucker. A great one for the money is the Mean 90 from GFS. I haven't tried the Rebel 90 from ToneRider, but I hear tons of good things and I definitely plan to try them out in the near future.

OR, you could go buck wild, and throw 3 Mini humbuckers in a Strat ;D I've always wanted to do that. One day I'll get brave enough to try cutting a pickguard for that and try it out.

[Deleted]

Nov 6, 2012 4:20:15 GMT -5 bowyn said:

I'm not terribly knowledgeable about the difference between the American Standard and the Deluxe... I could look up stuff with Google, but I'd rather someone with some hands on knowledge comment on that.

However, as far as pickups go, I have to suggest an HSS setup, but with a HB sized P-90 in the bridge instead of a Humbucker. A great one for the money is the Mean 90 from GFS. I haven't tried the Rebel 90 from ToneRider, but I hear tons of good things and I definitely plan to try them out in the near future.

OR, you could go buck wild, and throw 3 Mini humbuckers in a Strat ;D I've always wanted to do that. One day I'll get brave enough to try cutting a pickguard for that and try it out.

thanx,

i have Dimarzio fast-track1/2 in a strat-copy that i have (neck/bridge) and it is very good. However the middle stayed the stock pup. It is hard to achieve this "Dire Straits" sound (read : nail that tone!! ) in position 2 (bridge/middle) unless the middle is a genuine single coil pup. I noticed no major difference if the bridge is SC or HB. Position 2 sounds the same.

Interesting staff about the P-90... i never had anything close to it.

[4real]

Ironically, Knophler favours this guitar...



a mahogany/maple pensa-suhr with EMGs and a blocked floyd...

Another example of how much of the 'sound and tone' is really in the hands of the player more than the 'gear'...

[Deleted]

Nov 11, 2012 16:07:12 GMT -5 4real said:

Ironically, Knophler favours this guitar...

a mahogany/maple pensa-suhr with EMGs and a blocked floyd...

Another example of how much of the 'sound and tone' is really in the hands of the player more than the 'gear'...

alright, but that was after the 1st album, when Mark Knophler decided to go distorted and started to use Les Pauls, etc... (like in the "money for nothing" hit). I have EMGs (EMG81/EMG60) on the ibby arz800, mahogany/mapple , and i cannot think how it could sound like the original "Sultans of swing" sound. (or down to the waterline which is also very representative of this era).

[4real]

I know what you mean, but I don't really agreee and you have to compare apples with apples. Scale length and string gauges and such can have a big effect. An HB senses a lot more of the string and is far more 'midrangy' so hardly a fair comparison, even split. And, pups are important, they are not the engine that produces the sound of a guitar, a large part is in the attack, decay, sustain and teh harmonic content and how things evolve. Many of these aspects are initiated and controlled by the player.

I think with the kinds of 'gig's that knopler played/plays the traditional strat might have been unreliable with it's many flaws...it is a design from the 1950's after all. For one, the noise factor of the single coil pickups might have been a problem at giant volumes and on TV and he might have needed a bit more 'body' to the sound and variety perhaps....maybe he just likes this reliable workhorse.

Don't get me wrong, the strat is not only a rock music icon, it's also a design icon and an extremely versitile tool. The same basic instrument is played by Hendrix to beck to knophler to clapton and countless others and associated with a huge diversity of genres...and sporned countless variations and copies.

I have one, but for 25 years, I played an LP exclusively and was seen very much to be that kind of thing in my era...though I did have strat envy for quite a while I know!

As for the player thing, a lot has to do with how a player phrases and attacks the string that marks their signiture on any guitar they play. As one matures as a player, these are the things that people hear and recognise and what they refine.

All the best players, certainly the players mentioned above and all others, have this aspect refined to a high degree. It's one of the 'traps' of shredding players and that mind set IMHO. It is easy to play distorted and run around some pentatonic or other scales at speed, or at least an aquired skill (and can be fun to muck around with), but the thing that really calls attention to a player is that 'touch' and would encorage people to research this kind of thing and look to their own playing as to how they want to play things.

Another aspect is that music and certainly ones own playing, is an expressive art and depends a lot on what you want to say with it. Consider it perhaps like talking. There is a time for shouting and speaking as fast as one can, often though this is a barrier to actually communicating much other than you are 'angry' perhaps. By the time of bands like Nirvana the blueprint of a lot of rock/pop was set to become that fast, distorted alternating with slow/chorused clean thing...which has/had it's power perhaps, but also of being a little 'bipolar' or lurching to extremes with no finesse inbetween. That too is a valid expression and perhaps the way life is experienced, one of the other. But like talking, I think that we all have a voice, an accent and way of speaking and ambitions to 'say' things with more variety or like others.

Hmmm....5am and not expressing this well, but you can get an idea from this perhaps of a direction one might take to refine your sound and range of expression. The guitars are just tools. Often a different gutiar, certainly setup, will help bring that out or change the 'tone' of your musical voice, but the signiture is really in the hands as much as anything.

Much of the guitar industry exploits and creates GAS and being male dominated, tends to have that bent anyway and we men are kind of wired that way. We also live in a time where it is common that we think that we can 'buy' a players tone with the tool associated with them.

The tools are important and many like the strat can produce a characteristic sound and hence, why we tend not to just have 'one guitar' though there is a certain romaniticim to that.

I'd tend towards trying as hard as one can to look inside to the kind of things one wants and needs from a guitar personally and spend a lot of time refining those desires before a purchase to get the right tool for the job. Then a lot more time refining one's skills with that tool to achieve the 'voice' with it to say things in your own way. The strat is an extremely versitile instrument and may well be the tool for the job, I'd be wary of things like the HSS format, even though mine is or expecting a 'swiss army knife' approach often aspired to in guitar wirings....it is almost always to some degree a compromise. I would not mind a guitar that had one really good 'sound' and often play the guitar in that way, just a favorite pickup setting and trying to work with that and get the variety from the playing....working within restrictions often reaps the biggest rewards.

Oh, and 85% of any audience does not care what 'brand' of guitar one plays, most if not all will be more 'impressed' by the sound you make with it. There are visual icons, a strat is one of them and this is important to recognise I guess.

Sometimes this 'GAS' thing is symptomatic not of the instrument that one plays, but of a disatisfaction with one's playing and the hope (often hyped by marketing or our own biases or admiration of those that have what we 'desire') that if we onbly had that equipment, we too would sound like that. With a bit of work one might even become a creditable imitation, but a higher ambition is to find one's own voice, influenced heavily by others, and optimise your instrument to help bring that out. It tends to be what people really hear and what we inately recognise as being a 'great player' over one that is 'good' or just gymnastically impressive in terms of speed or loudness.

Hope the essence of that makes sense...

[Deleted]

surely makes sense!

And i am sure e.g. my wife cannot tell if play :



(one of her favorites from her former country which does not exist anymore - the country that is )

with a strat or the ibby, but i can!

more specifically, strat legendary position #2, cannot be emulated easily. When you think you got this, there is always something closer!

Also i saw you are against "swiss knife HSS" configurations, why that? I mean wasting a strat not to play metal is total sacrifice!

[4real]

Hey, each to their own. Putting an HB in the bridge position of a strat compromises the bridge+middle thing, generally there is a big discrepency between the HB and single coils too in volume and tone.

That said, I have an HSS strat...just saying.

Metal...it's a foriegn country to me generally, so I'm not one to critique it. There are some great players I am sure and obviously fans, though it does not speak to me and comes across as shallow and lacking in dynamics and emotional content...but then I'm a harsh critic I know...as I say, each to their own.

A lot of 'metal' really often has so much effects and volume that you really can't hear the differences in guitars, IMHO. Really, without knowing (if that is possible) can people really hear the actual guitars or amps used on any of this? A classic case is say Led Zepplin, their first two albums and classic solos such as on stairway to heaven, were all done on a stock telecaster and if you listen you can tell in the attack and cutting power of these guitars...but most would perhaps assume an LP from the image of Page live perhaps.

But though I played hard rock in my days, metal really passed me and most down here by. I mean, I lived through the heyday and saw this stuff rising (and had hair to my waist), but it rose from the MTV rise as much as anything and the message always felt 'dubious' if there was one. It appealed to a primarily male audience and, what can I say, I liked women...doh...disregard that.

...

Guitar's right...well a strat is a strat and if you want what it does best, then messing with the design and fooling yourself that any guitar can do anything with abit of coil splitting of some kind of hotter pup or something is not necessarily going to cut it.

Personally I am not that much of a purist and chose a guitar that had other options than a traditional strat obviously, and 'tricked it out' with over 30 pup combos. A large part of that though was to get back the more traditional sound and balance that the HB took away. The 'big thing' for me also is that I've always generally favoured combined pup combos, especially the B+N which is not on a normal strat selector. I also play clean generally and with dynamics, this is what a strat really excells at, HB's too can sound good clean, but harder and not with as much character (harmonic content) because they are sensing a much wider window of the strings vibration.

Fender made Jeff Beck an original signiture model and added an extra lace pup in the bridge, he never used it!

A very tradtional strat is probably not good for those saturated high gain sounds live though, any noise in the system as is typical of the SC pup is going to cause problems...but technology has moved on and you can get some great noiseless pups these days to handle that.

...

Metal can be fun, I have no doubt, but not much of it 'speaks to me' and I can't here the quality of the guitars through teh 'bee in a jam tin' tone often favoured. It is so compressed, you can't hear differences in dynamics, the lyrics are innane in many cases and speaks perhaps to the anxieties of a different culture or something. All that "ohhh, I'm so evil"...well, that's why the movie Spinal Tap is so funny.

A real doco of the LA metal scene is...

The Decline of Western Civilization Part II: The Metal Years
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Decline_of_Western_Civilization_Part_II:_The_Metal_Years (there is a punk one, Part 1...I can imagine what that one is like)

This will hopefully shine a light on the people, the excesses and the weirdness and cure or mature the metal fixation...

But, perhaps it does speak to a generation of diseffected white guys, confused in their beliefs and masculinity and swayed at a time of image over substance...where louder, faster, lower; any excess is only mirrored by the number of substances consumed. Perhaps an inner anger that makes them feel comfortable at someone yelling about how angry and frustrated they are, without offering anything in terms of hope or resolution. If music, especially of one's youth, is the soundtrake of our lives, I do have concern about the 'message' expressed in that form. Nothing in music is invalid, there are many fine players and gymnastically ept, but it does not speak nor try to speak to me.

But hey, getting old, but it didn't speak to me in it's hey day when I was in my 20's and had long hair too, so I just get it, certainly now with the benefit of hindsight.

I will acknowledge though, that this is in large part cultural. Australia likes it's hard rock and created bands like AC/Dc (but really, there is nothing 'hairspray about that and they are clearly tounge in cheek...the is a 60yo ugly guy in a school uniform going manic on stage). That period was also a time when the governement put some controls to foster airplay of australian acts and music and saw an explosion of acts of all kinds with a distinctive 'australian' character.

...

As for strats...the potential is enormous...I love JB, and without that bridge SC sized noiseless and a great trem setup, you just are not going to get those harmonics...but the tone is not 'clean' particularly nor thin and yet it says 'strat' (in a modern way) and it says Beck in every way!



A high gain HB is just going to sound generic...is my opinion...clearly I got a few...LOL

[Deleted]

Hello,

if you include thrash/hardcore/grundge/nu-metal the thing goes off way off the classic metal picture of the early 80s.

There is a plethora of great bands, with great soul, great music, and not a bit of hair spray on their (often bald) heads. ;D

Check "Suicidal Tendencies" and their guitarist "Rocky George" back in the 80s, 90s.... one of my all time favorites.

[Deleted]

talking about harmonics :



check out 4:55 and on... *THAT* IS HARMONICS !!!!

RIP Diamond Dimebag Darrell Abbott. = the all time master of natural harmonics ...

[Deleted]

Well, jammed with my cousin yesterday. It was quite good! played pink floyd, rage against the machine, ACDC, whatever the backing track on the ipad would bring

My cousin has a black-ish, (damn i dont remember the color) american deluxe strat S-S-S, with a german multi-efffcts processor www.thomann.de/gb/behringer_vamp3.htm .

In cleans, the strat sounded amazingly good. My Ibbzy arz800 sounded a little muddy, i had to turn the treble all the way up to be able to match the strat in clarity. But still i caught my cousin staring at the ibby cause of its bassy sound.

Distortion wise, the ibby was the clean winner! Now cousin wants to come over my place to show him how this pinch harmonics job is done Also i will have the time to examine the strat more thoroughly this time.

Anyway, the idea of getting a strat is growing, and think by next year September i would most probably get it...

something puzzles me tho. Should i just first get my partscaster and work on it? Where should i invest? Is keeping a pride of making smth your own a good reason to deny smth better? And is this "smth better" truly ... something better?

Also smth i realized from yesterday where we played on huge marshall stacks. It plays a big role the amp. I mean you cannot judge instruments playing at 0-1 in your bedroom. It has to compete with other sounds *in* the whole mix.

[newey]

pyrros-

On the Behringer V-amp, our moderator ashcatlt was in a band (or still is, perhaps) where no one used guitar or bass amplifiers- they all just toted their V-amps and plugged into a PA system.

Doing that might not be for everyone, but it sure beats carrying around Marshall stacks, at least until the band hits it big enough to hire some roadies. . .

As far as your Strat questions, there is no reason a Partscaster, well-made and properly set up, cannot be every bit as good as a real Fender- but at some point, you get into Fender price territory as well.

If you're going to do a Partscaster, put your money into the neck. Buy a good one, and all the rest will fall into place. Pickups are number two on your expense sheet, bridge is number three. The rest of the pieces can be cheaper versions without affecting the sound or playability very much.

And, since you've hung around this forum long enough, you should be able to resist all the "magic mojo" talkers who claim that you just have to have a certain capacitor or "vintage wire" or whatnot. Save your money there.

Is keeping a pride of making smth your own a good reason to deny smth better? And is this "smth better" truly ... something better?

Now, that's a tough question. Is a real Fender Strat truly better than the better-grade clones? I'd say yes . . .and no.

I've played Squier Strats, after they took a trip through the tech shop, that were every bit as good as the real Fenders. But the quality is very hit or miss- you could pull a good one off the music store wall, you could pull a lousy one.

Sound-wise, a pickup upgrade to a cheaper model can also make a huge difference.

But, I'm a bit prejudiced because I like the narrower neck width at the nut- that's the one difference you notice right away with a Squier as compared with the real Fender. Those who like a bit more width probably would like the Fender better.

The real Fenders are much more likely to come from the factory with the little issues already dealt with- no fretwork needed and with a decent set up.

Of course, people like their guitars set up differently-guitar techs make a living off of the shredders, who want super-low action without any buzzes. If that's where you're at, I'd expect that any guitar you buy will need at least one trip to the shop, and probably more. All set up is a compromise, and guitar factories compromise around what most folks want most of the time. If you want to go to the extremes, expect to have to pay for it.

I don't do my own set-up work, so I factor the cost of that into my budget for all my projects- and also into the price of a new guitar as well. I find writing a check to my tech is easier than the four hours of frustration I would endure trying to get it right myself- and he can get better results in an hour than I could get if I futzed with it for days . . .

As far as the pride of having done it yourself, that certainly counts for something- but only if the guitar is a real player when you're done with it.

[long813]

Just to add on to what many have said on the HSS v. SSS. A coil split HB does not replicate a single coil very well. Having playing around with it my self on my LP I find that it primarily just lowers the output.

Another big part of the Straty sound is the angle of the bridge pickup. The HSS deluxe model removes that and straightens it out. I wonder if Fender ever thought of putting the HB on an angle?

There are many metal plays who do use strats though, Iron Maiden is my #1 example simply because that is the heaviest metal I enjoy these days! But, even in shred genre's look at Paul Gilbert!

I think it's very important to try out both of those guitars to see which you truly prefer. Both have their merits.

[Deleted]

Nov 25, 2012 10:52:49 GMT -5 newey said:

pyrros-

On the Behringer V-amp, our moderator ashcatlt was in a band (or still is, perhaps) where no one used guitar or bass amplifiers- they all just toted their V-amps and plugged into a PA system.

Doing that might not be for everyone, but it sure beats carrying around Marshall stacks, at least until the band hits it big enough to hire some roadies. . .

As far as your Strat questions, there is no reason a Partscaster, well-made and properly set up, cannot be every bit as good as a real Fender- but at some point, you get into Fender price territory as well.

If you're going to do a Partscaster, put your money into the neck. Buy a good one, and all the rest will fall into place. Pickups are number two on your expense sheet, bridge is number three. The rest of the pieces can be cheaper versions without affecting the sound or playability very much.

And, since you've hung around this forum long enough, you should be able to resist all the "magic mojo" talkers who claim that you just have to have a certain capacitor or "vintage wire" or whatnot. Save your money there.

Is keeping a pride of making smth your own a good reason to deny smth better? And is this "smth better" truly ... something better?

Now, that's a tough question. Is a real Fender Strat truly better than the better-grade clones? I'd say yes . . .and no.

I've played Squier Strats, after they took a trip through the tech shop, that were every bit as good as the real Fenders. But the quality is very hit or miss- you could pull a good one off the music store wall, you could pull a lousy one.

Sound-wise, a pickup upgrade to a cheaper model can also make a huge difference.

But, I'm a bit prejudiced because I like the narrower neck width at the nut- that's the one difference you notice right away with a Squier as compared with the real Fender. Those who like a bit more width probably would like the Fender better.

The real Fenders are much more likely to come from the factory with the little issues already dealt with- no fretwork needed and with a decent set up.

Of course, people like their guitars set up differently-guitar techs make a living off of the shredders, who want super-low action without any buzzes. If that's where you're at, I'd expect that any guitar you buy will need at least one trip to the shop, and probably more. All set up is a compromise, and guitar factories compromise around what most folks want most of the time. If you want to go to the extremes, expect to have to pay for it.

I don't do my own set-up work, so I factor the cost of that into my budget for all my projects- and also into the price of a new guitar as well. I find writing a check to my tech is easier than the four hours of frustration I would endure trying to get it right myself- and he can get better results in an hour than I could get if I futzed with it for days . . .

As far as the pride of having done it yourself, that certainly counts for something- but only if the guitar is a real player when you're done with it.

Newey, thanx. As far as the Behringer V-amp (which is in the range of 100 euros) is concerned i can't say much. My cousin was impressed by the sounds of my boss me-25 multi-effects processor (which sells in the range of 200 EUROS).

About the setup, i agree 100%. Ibanez sends the ARZ out of the factory as fast as they can. I had two of them, the 1st had a big issue with the tail piece. So definitely a hit or miss situation. Both had OK fretwork, and OK overall quality in general. At the factory setup they could play good without buzz anywhere in the fretboard, but the fretwork was not 100% perfect. It was OK, in order to get low action, but not with 100% buzz-free with ultra low action. I guess the Fenders will be even better than that.

Now that i think about, and with all this crisis around me, i better start behaving like the rest, and get into this "mode" of DIY.

That also means : more modz!!!! hell we are not professionals here, at least not me, no need for 100% perfect tone!! (btw, i was showing my kids and one of their friends some basic physics, which material conducts electrism, i was showing them aluminum, iron, copper and lead, and measuring the resistance, when i saw those ..... tone capacitors i was buying like mad back in the shielding days!!! Also the shield paint which now is completely dry, all the equipment back from the day... Maybe i will start working on the partscaster again... This has a scalloped neck (from China : 100 USD, but really good, for the money)... so i will keep modding it, and comparing it to the cousin's strat. When i achieve his tone, then i'll stop.

[Deleted]

Nov 25, 2012 12:06:17 GMT -5 long813 said:

Just to add on to what many have said on the HSS v. SSS. A coil split HB does not replicate a single coil very well. Having playing around with it my self on my LP I find that it primarily just lowers the output.

Another big part of the Straty sound is the angle of the bridge pickup. The HSS deluxe model removes that and straightens it out. I wonder if Fender ever thought of putting the HB on an angle?

There are many metal plays who do use strats though, Iron Maiden is my #1 example simply because that is the heaviest metal I enjoy these days! But, even in shred genre's look at Paul Gilbert!

I think it's very important to try out both of those guitars to see which you truly prefer. Both have their merits.

Long, IMHO strat was the first shred axe. Ok we had some old school shredders with Gibsons (Randy rhoads, Zakk wylde) but the majority of the true old shredder guard : Eric Johnson, Jon Uli Roth , Jake e Lee, and Yngwie Malmsteen (the Great ) all played with strats. (sorry guys but i still cannot consider Blackmore or Hendrix as shredders.... never could .... or .... Jimmy Page.... ok player yes, guitar god, no way)

I doubt i can leave the strat with a single coil in the bridge. In my partscaster i have dimarzio super distortion in the bridge, and while it is much louder than the middle (no name) and neck (dimarzio HS-3) it is still clean and powerful. But i will have to rethink the pup configuration on this.

For some crazy reason, in my partscaster, without any explicit coil-splitting, just wiring together the super distortion and the no name middle in parallel, give a very distinctive straty position-2 sound, to the point i wonder why ppl find it so much hard to achieve that sound with humbukers. Now for just position 1 with coil splitting, i find no urgent reason to try it yet.

Definitely i will try to develop the partscaster and keep trying make it as good as my cousins deluxe, or roughly.

[long813]

Gotta agree to all that. Strats are definitely the shred axe, even today! I think much of it is due to the upper fret access - something I notice any time I hit above the 15th fret on the LP

[Deleted]

Nov 25, 2012 20:58:04 GMT -5 long813 said:

Gotta agree to all that. Strats are definitely the shred axe, even today! I think much of it is due to the upper fret access - something I notice any time I hit above the 15th fret on the LP

The classic neck joint on the strat is so and so (in the standard models with no beveled corners) but in LP it is even worse. I mean LP has this nylon-classical-guitar neck set-in design kept from the middle ages when the guitar was first designed.

Modern LP-inspired designs (like my ibanez arz800) are much better in this dept :



access to the 24th fret is just very easy.

[4real]

Nov 25, 2012 12:06:17 GMT -5 long813 said:

Just to add on to what many have said on the HSS v. SSS. A coil split HB does not replicate a single coil very well. Having playing around with it my self on my LP I find that it primarily just lowers the output.

HB's split or go into parallel very well. My SD JB bridge HB is renown for doing this well for instance. Often hotter pickups work well while don't impress at all becaues over hot. I've heard some that grow out of 'metal' to a more 'crunch' sound run some of those motherbucker like things in paralell to get quite a good almost PAF sound with perhaps a bit more edge and still be noise cancelling.

A variable split though is often great. There are various ways of 'splitting' in this way, such as running the treble out of one coil with a cap, leaving the one coil bright but adding a bit of body from the other (effectively turning the tone right down on one coil).

On my variable spin/select on my strat. The inner coil is the default from the HB as you turn it 'down' to split completely a one end of the dial. Pull the pot and it operates on the other bridge most coil for a much brighter sound and adds a very small cap that varies the 'spin-select' action in a slightly different way.

As for neck joins...



I think a lot of people put way too much attention to this while not understanding others. An SG has amazing 'access' but the whole guitar feels like 'rubber'...as a Prime Minister here once said "life wasn't meant to be easy" and really, how hard is it to stretch across on the higher frets? The neck/body join is one of the most critical parts of the guitar and you don't really want to mess too much with it, especially if you are going to have a massive neck pickup route right up against the end of the fret board.

all things present potential compromise...the excesses of teh eighties really pushed some silly notions...