candyflipper7
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?I don?t know sh*t from shinola. Maybe that?s why I?m so original.? -Ace Frehley
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Post by candyflipper7 on Nov 21, 2012 14:23:39 GMT -5
After much thougt, and consideration from my last thread on this project. I have seriously thought about design modification from all of the help & advice everyone here has given me. Thanks to all who have given me ideas, and more knowledge of wiring. I actually am going to go with this design, as I see it the easiest to wire and totally gets rid of that forsaken 5 way switch. I will be using Seymour D colors for my wiring( Shown are Dimarzio Colors). I have the modified plans on my work bench with the correct color codes(Listed below) (This is Dimarzio). I found this by chance on the net, and decided it was a combination of what members here drew up for me, and what I actually wanted. My original design had "NO" Tone Control(Which was pointed out to me here by "Newey) and got me thinking if I could live without tone control. The answer was no(LOL). This gives me the complete package for HHH( Even if this mod will not work with the design). My question is: Would I be able to use the 2nd Tone Control Knob If I decide to go this rout for an add on ( Currently, I will have a Basic Master Volume/Master Tone with a .022 Cap) for 3 HHH individually wired and linked together. Would this Mod work with this? I haven't ordered my pickguard yet from Warmoth seeing I might need that 3rd hole for the 6p2p. Add this in place of the capacitor. On my 500k No Load Master Tone Pot. I will also go to 1 Meg Volume pot with a treble Bleed on it. I finally got the swimming pool body stripped down from the factory finish and clear coat. Took almost 2 weeks and still have sealer to remove before I can even think about applying wood filler. Thought this would be a good time for advise before I get wiring going! If so I will be using: Will use these Values in HB Mode .047. .033. .022 Will use the Lower values when in Single coil modes- .015 .006 .003 Also since I am not using a 5 way selector would I use the second lug on the 6p2p from the jumper wire coming from the mini toggles as that would have naturally been my 5 way? Not sure how that would go. I think I am seeing this right but not sure. These are Dimarzio colors. I would use the Seymour Colors which would be: North Start - Black (Red=Dimarzio) North Fin- White (Black=Dimarzio) South Fin- Red (White=Dimarzio) South Start- Green (Green=Dimarzio same as Seymour D) Am I missing something? Or would that be in order or an explosion at the spaggetti factory Also is there any recommended values for tone caps in single coil positions. I know this seems like over kill but I am looking for the max out of my axe! I'm not a performer...Just love the possibilities of different sounds and tones.
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Post by JohnH on Nov 21, 2012 15:27:23 GMT -5
That seems like a good scheme, for a 'studio' guitar, provided you like flicking toggles. One option you might consider is, so far all the single coil settings cut to the same polaraty coil so in-phase combos of single coils will all have the same hum as a single coil and out of phase combos will be quieter. You could make one pickup cut instead to the other sc to get sone hum cancelled in phase sc combos.
Id suggest a 500k log volume pot would be better for this scheme than a 1M, for better tone consistency and lower output impedance, particularly if you have a no-load tone pot or your switched caps.
Treble bleed 150k with either 1nF or 0.82nF cap in parallel J
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Post by JohnH on Nov 21, 2012 16:02:46 GMT -5
Just thought id float one more idea by you. It may be too much but its no more complex to wire and it would give you even more tones:
At the moment you have all the combos as parallel and no series combos between pups. You have heaps of tonal range and you also have one more phase switch than you need. So how about changing the bridge phase switch to another on on on wired similarly to the other three, to combine B with the net combined output of N and M as selected by the other two phase on/off/on switches. If you do this the mid setting is B off with whatever you set on NM. Up is B in series with NM and down is B in para with NM. I think thar is still logical in use and you lose no tones and gain a bunch more. J
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candyflipper7
Meter Reader 1st Class
?I don?t know sh*t from shinola. Maybe that?s why I?m so original.? -Ace Frehley
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Post by candyflipper7 on Nov 21, 2012 18:24:31 GMT -5
*Noted on the 500k pot. I was thinking a 1 meg would go well with the 3 HHH. So I will definately go with your suggestion. (500k L). I just received my Treble Bleed Kit(s) from JK Bookshelf today. Waiting on my .o15 caps to come by the weekend. Will get my other caps next week sometime. Looking for a variety pack of NOS. I am trying to visualize the other option you mentioned in your last reply. Anyway to add more options and Lose a switch but gain one extra on/on/on is a plus! And Noise/Hum cancelling is always a plus) ;D
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Post by JohnH on Nov 21, 2012 18:45:36 GMT -5
cf7
If you are intetested in my second suggestion, theres one small caveat. If you set B to be in series with N/M, and then select N and M both off, then theres no sound. If you just want B, then B only would be set by putting B in parallel mode not series mode. I dont think thats too bad on this guitar - youll be getting a lot of juice out of your 6 switches - i reckon theres 195 combos! (including 51 series combos)
I can sketch the switch wiring if you wish
John
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Post by newey on Nov 21, 2012 19:28:25 GMT -5
JohnH's idea is a good one. You replace the bridge phase switch, since three phase switches are superfluous- two will get you all possible OOP combos of three pickups. Actually, it doesn't have to be the bridge phase you lose, it could be any one of the phase switches. But it makes sense to put the bridge in series with the others (since neck * mid might be too muddy). And if the series/parallel switch is going to be operating on the bridge, it logically follows that the bridge phase switch should be the one to replace. To help you visualize this, the spot taken by the bridge phase switch gets an on-on-on instead. This switch gets wired exactly like the series/parallel switches on each of your pickups. But, instead of putting one HB in series/SC/parallel, you'll be doing the same with the output from the bridge pup switch and the output from the N and M switches combined. For wiring purposes, you treat the output from the bridge pickup's Series/parallel switch (shown as red and black wires coming out of the "bridge A" switch) the same as the diagram treats one coil from the HB. You treat the output of the neck and middle switches as if it were 2 wires from the other coil of the HB, as shown on the diagram. (This would be the fuchsia-colored wires from the N and M, plus grounds.) In the center position, rather than selecting a single coil from a HB, you'll be selecting the N + M output, leaving the bridge pup "off", just as the other coil of the HB is "off" for the pickup switches. So, with your new switch set to parallel, you'll get B + M, B + N, B + M + N, or the bridge pup by itself with both N and M pups "off". You also get OOP combos, of course. With the new switch set to the center, your other switches are controlling the N and M, giving you N, M , and N + M. The Bridge pup is "off" in this setting. With the new switch set to series, You'll be adding all new series combos of the bridge with the N and/or M: B * N, B * M, and B * (N + M). And these can likewise be OOP. The other suggestion, separate from the above, was to maximize hum-cancelling in the SC settings by wiring one of the three pups (your choice) so as to select the opposite coil for its single coil setting. You do this by wiring one HB "inside-out". Since you already need to correlate to different wire colors, I'm not going to confuse this more by talking wire colors here. I'll just point you to our member wolf's site for his discussion of coil cut switching. Page down for the DPDT On-On-On wiring, that's exactly like yours. If you wish to pursue this, I'd suggest you draw up a preliminary diagram and we'll check your work. You'll have a better "feel" for how this wiring works if you've drawn it up yourself.
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candyflipper7
Meter Reader 1st Class
?I don?t know sh*t from shinola. Maybe that?s why I?m so original.? -Ace Frehley
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Post by candyflipper7 on Nov 21, 2012 20:59:52 GMT -5
JohnH & Newey...Thanks! I will study this and draw it up myself per the explanation. It is most likely going to take a few tries I am assuming to get it right. I will get back to this thread with my drawing with the correct colors of wires also. TY both and have a Great Thanksgiving! MB
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Post by JohnH on Nov 21, 2012 21:24:24 GMT -5
Sounds good.
Just thinking about which of the pickups to move the coils in for humcancelling. Im going to suggest its the B pup. Then you can get in phase humcancelling with sinngle coil versions of B and N and B and M, and in series mode, if you cut all pickups to single, then all three such series combos will be humcancelling BxN, BxM and Bx(N+M).
But it may be a good idea to not worry about that for the first drawing, since once the wiring topology is correct and checked, its just a matter of changing some wire colours. In deciding, it will also be relevent to know if you have covered or uncovered pups since the screw coil of a covered pickup sounds clearer than the covered slug coil.
John
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candyflipper7
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?I don?t know sh*t from shinola. Maybe that?s why I?m so original.? -Ace Frehley
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Post by candyflipper7 on Nov 24, 2012 17:39:48 GMT -5
Ok, I am super confused now after 3 days of trying to figure this out. I have no scanner to upload the modified drawing to photobucket so you guys can see it. If I am correct I am only going to have 2 on/off/on switches for each HB, and just 2 On/On/On for the 2 HB's Neck and Bridge and a (3rd Switch) For Series which will be wired as the same On/Off/On to control Series for all Three HB's. This Last switch is to be On/On/On to control series with the fusia colored wired going to the Last switch and wires from neck and middle going into this last on/on/on switch. Correct? With my current plan and set-up with the varitone switch(added in and connected to my master tone pot.) am I risking massive Humming noise? I was under the impression (Even though the current plans are parallel only and no series) That Covered Humbuckers produced less Hum than uncovered HB's. What is the chance of massive Hum and extra noise using just parallel connection as it currently stands? I would love to have series options and I am in no rush at the moment to wire as I am still prepping for primer and painting will take awhile with the cure time of my paint clear coats and so forth. I do like the option of dropping a switch as well. So is it truly needed to have series, and parallel if I have the choice of any option as it stands?
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Post by newey on Nov 24, 2012 19:52:01 GMT -5
Candyflipper- That last is pretty much just one big run-on, so let me see if I can sort this out for you. As we look at your existing diagram, there are 3 pickups (N, M, B) and 6 DPDT switches, which are labeled "A" and "B" for each pickup, So we can designate the switches as "Neck A" ("NA"), "Neck B" ("NB"), "MId A" ("MA"), etc. If you undertake JohnH's scheme, you will be using a grand total of 2 DPDT On-Off-On switches. These will be used for phase switches on the middle and neck pickups. These correspond to switches "NB" and " MB". These two On-Off-On switches will be wired just as per the diagram. They will give, for each one of those pickups: 1) In Phase (with rest of guitar) 2) Off 3) Out of Phase (with rest of guitar) You will be using a grand total of 4 DPDT On-On-On switches. Three of the four are the pickup "series/SC/parallel" switches. These correspond to NA, MA, and BA. These are wired exactly as per the diagram unless you take the suggestion to wire one HB "inside out" for hum cancellation purposes. If you do decide to do that, the neck pickup wiring (presumably) would be changed to "inside out", as I explained earlier. Either way, these 3 pickup switches will operate on each of the three HBs to give you: 1) HB, coils in parallel 2) Split coil 3) HB, coils in series (std. HB) Apart from the possible swapping of wire colors to the neck pickup, the only thing that will change in JohnH's scheme is the wiring to switch BB., except for the ground wires off of MB and NB. As shown in the diagram, BB's a third On-Off-On phase switch, just like NB and MB. But now, this is replaced with a fourth On-On-On switch. This 4th On-On-On switch will be wired just like the other three, but instead of operating on the two coils of one HB, it will be a sort-of "Meta-switch", operating between two sets of pickups. Into one side of this switch, instead of the wires for one coil of a HB, you'll have the output from BA. Into the other, instead of the other coil wires from a HB, you'll have the combined output of MB and NB (fuchsia wires) plus a ground wire. Look at switches MB and NB. The center lug on the left-hand side of each switch is indicated to connect to ground. These will now NOT be grounded (at least, not right away) but instead, both will be run to switch BB as shown on the diagram. It will look like this (but let's get someone to check this first!): I have used the wire colors from your previous diagram. While this looks a bit different than BA, MA and NA, it is really the same electrically. With the toggle lever "up" (meaning the lower set of lugs are connected), the bridge is in series with whatever N and M selections are made by NA, MA, NB and MB. With the lever "down" (upper sets of lugs are connected), the bridge is in parallel with the N and M switch settings. In the middle position, the bridge is disconnected and only N and M are operable, as set by NA, MA, NB and MB. For drawings, you can just use MS Paint and post it like a photo through photobucket, as I just did.
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Post by JohnH on Nov 25, 2012 6:08:59 GMT -5
V sorry, but I just had to draw it: Its the same drawing as you had. but: Converted to SD colours. the Bridge B switch is swapped for an A switch - which is the on-on-on that does Bridge in para, Bridge off, Bridge in series As shown, all pickups are configured the same, for clarity at this scheme stage. The B pup should next have its coils swapped over, to get that improved humcancelling discussed above. Swap black with red and green with white. Definitely check this, in fact definitely do not build it unless you can check it and agree with it - I can easily have mistakes! cheers John
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candyflipper7
Meter Reader 1st Class
?I don?t know sh*t from shinola. Maybe that?s why I?m so original.? -Ace Frehley
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Post by candyflipper7 on Nov 25, 2012 8:13:05 GMT -5
NP. I had most of that right and got confused when it came to the ground wire placement. TY very much. I really do appreciate the help. I am really new to this and it is over whelming when the drawing and a box or wires and parts come out with no solder on them to visualize it. Thanks again. I will post pics of this project when I get my pickguard from Warmoth. Merry Christmas guys, "or" Happy Holidays as it is said these days.
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Post by newey on Nov 25, 2012 11:23:11 GMT -5
JohnH's version is fine. He drew it to better mimic the existing "A" switching.
One note about John's diagram. Note that the bare shield wire for the N and M pickups connects to the "B" switch for those pickups, to the center terminal? However, on the new bridge switch, the bare shield goes to the ground wire, and not to the switch?
I would remove all those shields from the switches and connect them all directly to ground. They were fine as connected originally, but we are now taking the ground side of the N and M over to the other, new bridge switch instead of directly to ground. So, we don't want the shield wires to be switched- just run those directly to your grounding point, whatever it may be.
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candyflipper7
Meter Reader 1st Class
?I don?t know sh*t from shinola. Maybe that?s why I?m so original.? -Ace Frehley
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Post by candyflipper7 on Nov 26, 2012 9:14:13 GMT -5
TY. I am making note of that and will make the changes to the drawing. This is great. TY both for the help. It is pretty basic, and should be fairly easy to solder this. If I have concerns I will be back. Please keep an eye on this thread from time to time. Once again thanks JohnH & Newey.
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candyflipper7
Meter Reader 1st Class
?I don?t know sh*t from shinola. Maybe that?s why I?m so original.? -Ace Frehley
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Post by candyflipper7 on Dec 10, 2012 18:30:45 GMT -5
Been studying this after JohnH modified it for me. I further modded it to my liking. Could someone check this for me for grounding? I am sure I am missing something. And also - Since I am not using a 5 way blade do I need to connect the 5 way varitone mod to the bridge (A) On/Off/On Switch, or should I run it like I have it as just connected like a regular tone cap. Also, I am thinking a ground from volume pot to tone pot or would that be considered group grounded? I am seeing 4 grounds to be soldered to the jack & 1 ground from the volume pot soldered to the spring claw. Even though my humbucker's are covered (N & B) I think it would be wise to still shield the swimming pool cavity & pot cavity with copper shielding tape, As well the pick guard. How am I looking so far? ready to roll yet.....
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Post by JohnH on Dec 11, 2012 0:01:00 GMT -5
Nice diagram. Will review later J
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Post by JohnH on Dec 11, 2012 5:11:55 GMT -5
The switching is OK, except if you want to optimise humcancelling by swapping wires on the bridge pup as I noted previously. Before doing that, it would be a good idea to work out which coil goes with which colour pair (green/red is a coil, black/white is the other coil) for each pickup, and their relative polarities. eg, do all the poles with green/red (doa tap test) repel when placed together? (I assume they do)
On the diagram, the main issue is the tone caps, which seem currently shorted to ground. The rotary switch pole, and the ends of all the caps, should go in place of the single cap in the base diagram.
John
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candyflipper7
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?I don?t know sh*t from shinola. Maybe that?s why I?m so original.? -Ace Frehley
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Post by candyflipper7 on Dec 11, 2012 9:17:48 GMT -5
Thanks for clarifying that about the ground I had coming from the 5 way 2 pole. It just didn't look right in my eyes but I did originally have it set up like this and had changed it. Here is what I gathered from your last reply(Above) - If this is correct could you verify it? Thanks in advance. MB So in all reality there are 3 grounds to be connected to jack correct? I will change that note I had on my diagram to 3 if it is verified. The 4th ground would come from the top of the volume pot and into the spring cavity connected to the spring claw I'm thinking. But since everything is connected(from Tuners to bridge and so forth (Metal to Metal in a sense) Would it be better for me to solder the bridge to ground somewhere as opposed to volume pot to claw? Just puzzles me because I have opened the cavities on 3 guitars and don't see this but have no buzzing. ( I am amazed at how crappy the wiring jobs are inside) I never looked at things so closely untill recently (Jeez- I paid alot of money for these things)
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Post by JohnH on Dec 11, 2012 14:36:03 GMT -5
Our view these days is that it doesnt really make any significant difference where the grounds are connected in a guitars with passive electronics, so long as everything that needs to be grounded is. So its best to arrnge things to suit a neat wiring job.
So normally, all grounds go to the back of a pot, you can wire each one to there, or link them is a chain with wire, its ok, or make a seperate lug and put all grounds to that. Make sure the bare or braided screen wires on the pickups also get grounded.
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candyflipper7
Meter Reader 1st Class
?I don?t know sh*t from shinola. Maybe that?s why I?m so original.? -Ace Frehley
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Post by candyflipper7 on Dec 11, 2012 20:07:12 GMT -5
Thanks so much JohnH. And, TY to everyone who took the time to help me get this project to the point where I know what I am doing to some extent, what to use, and a better understanding of what's involved in all of the years of playing music, enjoying music much more in a respect for the inner workings of the instruments we cherish and love! Many Kudos to the members, and GN2. MB
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candyflipper7
Meter Reader 1st Class
?I don?t know sh*t from shinola. Maybe that?s why I?m so original.? -Ace Frehley
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Post by candyflipper7 on Jan 2, 2013 17:47:59 GMT -5
Well... I am almost ready to wire up. I have made a mock Pick guard from a clear pick guard I had laying around and found out that the Bridge's Series Parallel mini toggle is too close to my center (tone knob). I would like to lose the bridge toggle for phase in out and just have the bridge series/parallel mini for space reasons. As members said before (And I did not listen ) as to this in phase / oop switch was really needed. It isn't as I can see now and would like to x it out of the plan. Is it possible? And how do I go about this? Happy New Year Everyone! Wishing you all and yours Health, Wealth, Wisdom - and great Music in 2013.
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Post by newey on Jan 2, 2013 18:17:33 GMT -5
cf7-
I am assuming that we're working off your latest diagram, as posted at reply #17 above.
Yes, it's possible to eliminate the bridge phase switch. But because that switch also turns the bridge pup "off" in the center position, simply eliminating it would leave the bridge pickup always "on"- probably not an acceptable set-up, I would imagine.
So, to eliminate the switch, and just have the single switch for the bridge pup, means something has to change in the bridge pups "A" switch as well, so as to give the "off' option.
You could, for example, replace the On-On-On "A" switch with an On-Off-On. This could be wired to give series HB/ off / parallel HB, but you lose the coil split position.
Alternatively, you can lose the parallel setting instead, and have coil cut/ off / series HB.
Either way, something's got to give. Another option would be to add more switching elsewhere. A P/P pot for example, could be used to turn the bridge "off", leaving your bridge "A" switch alone, as is. This, however, changes the logic of the switching; the bridge now has a different protocol that the other pickups.
But, if you really want to have the original plan, I suspect a bit of rethinking would find a way to get those 6 switches in there- assuming you're using the mini-toggle style ones. Others have done so; once the lever switch is omitted, there ought to be enough room. You may just need to try a different layout.
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candyflipper7
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?I don?t know sh*t from shinola. Maybe that?s why I?m so original.? -Ace Frehley
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Post by candyflipper7 on Jan 2, 2013 20:16:22 GMT -5
Thanks Newey for the reply regarding the original plan. Yes I am using Mini's. My pick guard from Warmoth will be here tommorrow per UPS email, and I just picked up the 2 pole 6 way and 1 meg pot today from Radio Shack. Getting pretty excited about finally getting this project underway! I am sure I can get it to fit with more precise measuring. Just looks really tight from what I see. Once I get all parts I will be posting pics of this project as I go along. Thanks for your help once again. I am sure I will be back for more advice. Happy New Year!
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candyflipper7
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?I don?t know sh*t from shinola. Maybe that?s why I?m so original.? -Ace Frehley
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Post by candyflipper7 on Jan 6, 2013 9:58:22 GMT -5
That seems like a good scheme, for a 'studio' guitar, provided you like flicking toggles. One option you might consider is, so far all the single coil settings cut to the same polaraty coil so in-phase combos of single coils will all have the same hum as a single coil and out of phase combos will be quieter. You could make one pickup cut instead to the other sc to get sone hum cancelled in phase sc combos. Id suggest a 500k log volume pot would be better for this scheme than a 1M, for better tone consistency and lower output impedance, particularly if you have a no-load tone pot or your switched caps. Treble bleed 150k with either 1nF or 0.82nF cap in parallel J I came back to this post to see if I missed anything before wiring up. To get some notes. Glad I did John H. Switch those pots out for the 500k as recommended and doing the same for the treble bleed kit. Also can you check the other posts as I would like to see your version of this in 6 switch same setup John H. Thanks....Sorry for the late reply.
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candyflipper7
Meter Reader 1st Class
?I don?t know sh*t from shinola. Maybe that?s why I?m so original.? -Ace Frehley
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Post by candyflipper7 on Jan 6, 2013 10:09:45 GMT -5
Just thought id float one more idea by you. It may be too much but its no more complex to wire and it would give you even more tones: At the moment you have all the combos as parallel and no series combos between pups. You have heaps of tonal range and you also have one more phase switch than you need. So how about changing the bridge phase switch to another on on on wired similarly to the other three, to combine B with the net combined output of N and M as selected by the other two phase on/off/on switches. If you do this the mid setting is B off with whatever you set on NM. Up is B in series with NM and down is B in para with NM. I think thar is still logical in use and you lose no tones and gain a bunch more. J Just looking over this to see what I missed or needed to look over before wiring. Yes this is so Awesome! TY.
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biturbo
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Post by biturbo on Jan 28, 2013 0:06:27 GMT -5
I am new to the board. But this thread appears to have some great thinkers following it so I would like to seek some advice please. I am building an hhh project of my own. What inspired me to build it is the jimmy page lp number 2 but I have 3 humbuckers. I would like a volume an tone for each pickup, and would prefer push/pull switches to handle most of the series/parallel and coil split work. I was considering toggles to handle the phase. I have seen the 94 sound setup on the 1728.org site but I am having difficulty going from the schematic to drawing a wiring diagram that makes sense to me.
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Post by JohnH on Jan 28, 2013 0:23:11 GMT -5
I am new to the board. But this thread appears to have some great thinkers following it so I would like to seek some advice please. I am building an hhh project of my own. What inspired me to build it is the jimmy page lp number 2 but I have 3 humbuckers. I would like a volume an tone for each pickup, and would prefer push/pull switches to handle most of the series/parallel and coil split work. I was considering toggles to handle the phase. I have seen the 94 sound setup on the 1728.org site but I am having difficulty going from the schematic to drawing a wiring diagram that makes sense to me. Hi biturbo, and welcome to GN2. Could I request that you start a new thread for your project?, since it seems it will end up a bit different to candyflipper7's, and his is still in progress. We will be happy to help, see you there. Hey CF7 - hows it going?
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biturbo
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Post by biturbo on Jan 28, 2013 8:58:50 GMT -5
Excellent advice. I started a thread called HHH 3V 3T + Push/Pull and Toggle Switches. Thanks.
(EDITed by sumgai to remove some garbage that snuck in somehow.....)
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candyflipper7
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?I don?t know sh*t from shinola. Maybe that?s why I?m so original.? -Ace Frehley
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Post by candyflipper7 on Feb 15, 2013 10:03:36 GMT -5
Hey everyone. Everything is kinda on hold un till my new pickups get here. after sound demo, and sound demo, reading reviews, and more reviews. I decided to not go with the original Gold High output HB's I had for Neck and Bridge. I ended up ordering a Black Seymour Duncan Invader for the bridge and waiting on EY to come back from the mysterious holiday to order some HDN or HVX Entwistle's for Neck and Middle Positions. I have collected all of my wire from different sources, 1 Meg Tone pot and 500k Volume pot. Gathered my tone cap(s) and Selector switch. Shielded the cavity(PICS IN THE GALLERY) and just finished up some custom cosmetics on the body. I will start wiring hopefully this week! Thanks for asking JohnH. And once again thanks to everyone for the support and help along the way. I'm sure I will be back really soon with questions! ;D
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