Tone-Plastic ... Redux

[sumgai]

Dec 16, 2012 7:45:42 GMT -5 gumbo said:

HAPPY SILLY SEASON, FOLKS!!

He says smmugly, as he sits in mild 77°(F) weather, looking at temps projected to go over 100°(F) in the coming week.... all the while knowing that the rest of us (in the right-side-up hemisphere) are just about to go out shopping for new butts, due to our current ones freezing off!

Seriously, gumbo, your points to have validity. But I think they reinforce what we've been saying, perhaps more than you might've intended. The story about your mate goes to show, without the innate skill within the player, the guitar/effects/amp/speaker box will sound a certain way, what we might call "generic" for that combination. By that I mean that most players below Master grade will probably sound about the same, throught some given kit. (Said kit held as a constant for others to test against.)

This goes to explain why your two amps sound so completely different. Yes, that's to be expected. But to more closely precise about it, they are mere "starting points" in the Quest for Tone - without them, achieving one's 'dream tone' might not be easily done, or even possible. While Jimmy Page can make an 18-watt Supro sound like a stack of Marshalls, you and I aren't gonna get to that point (not without a helluva lot of practice!).... But, with that Supro in hand, we'd at least have a chance of getting there. With your Sideman, not nearly as much chance of making the breakthrough, eh?

I agree, equipment gets you well on your way to your goal, that of finding and tapping into "your Tone". But I disagree with the FelderGarb that holds forth the promise of instant Nirvana, should you buy that marketer's particular piece of kit. The idea of being instantly transported to said Nirvana, without that all-important practice, is not only ludicrous in itself, but is also the stuff of which obscene profits are made. (Obscene is defined here as 'undeserved' or 'underhandedly taking advantage of another person'.)

Oh, and I do need to register my concord with the notion of "the audience is the final arbiter". After all, they're paying to hear you play, right? But that does come with the already-stated proviso that even if the audience is digging it, if the player isn't, then it's not right, period. I think this can be summed up like so: Happiness has to be present on both sides of the equation, not just one side or the other.

HTH


As an aside.... did anyone else notice the length of the recent postings by both 4real and gumbo. Surreal.







sumgai

[gumbo]

Dec 16, 2012 13:52:56 GMT -5 sumgai said:

Dec 16, 2012 7:45:42 GMT -5 gumbo said:

HAPPY SILLY SEASON, FOLKS!!

He says smmugly, as he sits in mild 77°(F) weather, looking at temps projected to go over 100°(F) in the coming week.... all the while knowing that the rest of us (in the right-side-up hemisphere) are just about to go out shopping for new butts, due to our current ones freezing off!


Happiness has to be present on both sides of the equation, not just one side or the other.



As an aside.... did anyone else notice the lenght of the recent postings by both 4real and gumbo. Surreal.

sumgai

... ;D...just thought I'd cut to the chase here...

I agree with all of the above..

[sumgai]

Dec 17, 2012 6:17:55 GMT -5 gumbo said:

... just thought I'd cut to the chase here...

One attaboy, comin' right up! ;D

[Runewalker]

Back to Tone Plastic:

From long813

“Is this acrylic as well, or plastic?”

From Newey:

“I suspect acrylic, but then again, acrylic is a type of plastic. Here, nearby Akron, we've moved on, linguistically. Plastics, acrylics, rubber, styrene- they're all just "Polymers" nowadays.

”

I’m with Newey. What difference does it make as to what kind of polymer it is?

The Dan Armstrong Guitar, marketed by Ampeg starting in the late 1960s, which was made out of Lucite™, which is/was a trademark of General Electric. Lucite is poly(methl methacrylate), "PMMA", which is indeed an acrylic.

But thank you Newey for posting the Ampeg clear-view with the rich and warm Formica, fake wood pickgaurd... I am thrilled you pulled that up. This Ampeg reference, along with the “tone x materials” discussions is why I always wanted a Sexy Plexy, a Plastic Fantastic Lover (Jefferson Airplane, don’t get kinky on me) a Lucy Lucite, an Ali Acrylic, and so on. Of course the ‘want’ was further fueled by the myth rants about tone materials… but that is just the evangelical motive. The real emotional drive was John Kay, a nothing guitarist, but a sunglasses punk in a world of tension between the clinging to convention and the assertion of anything, anything but.

Circa 1971. Steppenwolf, live in the Taylor County Expo Center (adjacent to the West Texas Fail Grounds, Abilene, Texas, of course), lead by John Kay played a probably perfunctory set (because I can’t really remember if it was inspired or not) of Born to Be Wild and Magic Carpet Ride among other more forgettable diddies. What was John “sunglasses” Kay playing? The Ampeg Lucite. Absolutely too cool.

(the warm up band was Blues Image, long before the insipid “Ride Capitan Ride” a reference American derivative of the British Blues invasion [*derived in turn from Muddy Waters, Albert/Freddy/BB King, Howlin’ Wolf, et. al.] --- with a smoking guitarist, Mike Pinera --- the pix shows a Twin and some kind of copy of a Fender Dual Showman type stack --- I remember Marshall stacks --- but especially his clear ringing Gibson 335 --- his 335 sound and Freddy Kings abuse of a cherry red 335 at the Armadillo made that a still to be realized member of the guitar harem).

note the oil and water overhead projected "light show"

[newey]

The real emotional drive was John Kay, a nothing guitarist,

But one, among several, of the reasons I picked up a guitar in the first place. I just had to learn "Magic Carpet Ride". I hadn't realized he used the Dan Armstrong Guitar, seems like I remember a Gibson or two . . .

[Runewalker]

Back to Tone Plastic 2

So how does the PlastiCaster operate as a guitar?

First with all that polymeric density the beast is HeAvEy!

It easily outweighs my '68 full bore Les Paul by 4-5 lbs. Disorienting.

Uncle Son-o and I have not really dialed it in. So the action is too high --- tall like Robin Trower likes it. The neck is base-ball batty, which I like ... I like a big-posterior beefy neck. (back to the Texas BBQ throw-down comment that incensed Newey...). The rose wood is very tight grained, which surprised me for a cheapo Chinese neck. It's dry and will need a gentle oil treatment, but even dry the grain yields a certain silkiness upon fretting.

Son-o's an intonation freak so he did adjust that. However, with the high action each note is very clear, no buzz at all, of course.

I expected cheap ceramic Asian pups. They don't sound like SRV or Hendrix, however they are surprisingly musical.

Son-o was predicting it would be very bright. Perhaps with more conventional quality pups it would be, but with these there was a solid warmth to the sound.

I suspected the tone would be solid and clear. It is more in that direction. The sustain is respectable, and what really stands out is how the density of the bod gives a strong, full bass articulation in the low E and the A strings. Not boomy, not wimpy but fully present, with authority and pop. Not a sound I ever hear in those highly routed Strats.

The sound of all the strings is clear, stable, with a nice balance between them all. That may also be enhanced by the flat slugs of the pups. There is a real stable clarity to each string's vibration and sound. No woody dissipation, just clear and ringing unadulterated tone. A very interesting quality to the sound.

It needs new pups and of course a mod. I will have to think about the pup config. I have a few around I will probably throw in. I may toss in a Dimarzio Dp117 HS3 into the bridge I have been meaning to put in something. Then I have some over wound GFS' that would work. This guitar does not need 'vintage' wounds. It needs some bovine presence.

I know someone asked for clips. That may be a while. This thing has some garish gold hardware we will probably strip to put on one that is being built to go out. It will get chrome hardware and even a chrome pickgaurd.

Son-o's hand



RW

[Runewalker]

Dec 18, 2012 0:05:00 GMT -5 newey said:

The real emotional drive was John Kay, a nothing guitarist,

But one, among several, of the reasons I picked up a guitar in the first place. I just had to learn "Magic Carpet Ride". I hadn't realized he used the Dan Armstrong Guitar, seems like I remember a Gibson or two . . .

When looking for the Ampeg pix and J.Kay I found a bunch of him with Ricks (go figure) and a couple with something like a black ES175D. but I will never forget him on stage with the Lucite Lucy.

[Deleted]

Dec 18, 2012 0:13:49 GMT -5 Runewalker said:

I suspected the tone would be solid and clear. It is more in that direction. The sustain is respectable, and what really stands out is how the density of the bod gives a strong, full bass articulation in the low E and the A strings. Not boomy, not wimpy but fully present, with authority and pop. Not a sound I ever hear in those highly routed Strats.

The sound of all the strings is clear, stable, with a nice balance between them all. That may also be enhanced by the flat slugs of the pups. There is a real stable clarity to each string's vibration and sound. No woody dissipation, just clear and ringing unadulterated tone. A very interesting quality to the sound.

very interesting!
How about its "flexibility" as material as aopposed to wood?

Now about the chinese neck, it is amazing, i have a similar experience from a scalloped chinese neck.

well done!

[Runewalker]

This thread generated a little more traffic than I expected and has wavered and caromed all over the place. Even some irony in the posts --- was it long813 who talked about how the substrata (guitar body) "resonance" affected the sound.... of course the whole "tone plastic" terminology sprung from a discussion attempting to debunk resonance as a major element in a solid body guitar's palate .... resonance being - "the prolongation of sound by reflection; reverberation..." A term relevant to acoustics where the 'reverberation' occurs in the box's chamber and air vibrations are reflected off of multiple surfaces....

I think when we hear folks talk about resonance in a solid body they are trying to describe the variable ways that different materials dissipate string vibration through the coupling points bridge, posts, screws, nut and tuners, and that various (usually wood) materials dissipate those osculations in ways that affected the heard sound in either pleasing or disappointing ways. Agreed, I just wish they would not use the word resonance, since it means something else.

I won't go any further in that discussion since it has be whipped to death over the last 6-7 years in this forum and others, and will never be resolved, apparently.

Besides John Kay, the other reason I wanted this obnoxious guitar was to get closer to just the strings and pickups sound, without vibratory loss through the coupling points. This one does not get there purely, since it has a trem ... may block that. If I really wanted to test it I should have gotten a LP or SG version, but they were not in the $109 range. Or I could have built a concrete guitar or other inert material ... naaaahh.

This think has a very stable tone generation. It's diminished string vibration dissipation is especially noticeable in the low E and A.

Son'o had some time last week and recorded a few samples and the Duane Eddie types demonstrate the bass effect I describe. I asked him to post but he is a little under the weather.... so I am posting his samples. He would put in some disclaimer about being done fast, blah blah blah, so if he feels better I'll let him put in the caveats. I know he wanted to do some more over the top types and the in-line recording (not miked) has a little electronic artifacts, but good enough for a test.

Duane Eddie style - rhythm track record with same setting as lead, e.g., mid rhythm/mid lead.

Rebel Rouser

Neck
soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=12063883

Neck Mid
soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=12063884

Mid
soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=12063886

Mid/Bridge
soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=12063887

Bridge
soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=12063889

Blues Shuffle

SoundClick Sound clips for Lucy Shuffles...

Neck
soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=12063803

Neck/Mid
soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=12063804

Mid
soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=12063805

Mid/Bridge
soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=12063807

Bridge
soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=12063808

Thanks Son-o! aka, MudCat. I guess I should claim that the blues shuffle was recorded not by MudCat, but by Muddy Sea... (mud-C). (Muddy Waters would not approve Ali Acrylic since it is not a tele. Dillion makes these things in a Tele, but my anti-Tele bias has not abated and I could not bring myself to getting a plexiTele.)

[sumgai]

Dec 24, 2012 9:31:36 GMT -5 Runewalker said:

This thread generated a little more traffic than I expected and has waver and caromed all over the place.

gumbo will be along in a few moments to claim his prize for that little debacle. In fact, I'll lay even money that his first words will be: "Hey, no thanks necessary!".

Besides John Kay, the other reason I wanted this obnoxious guitar was to get closer to just the strings and pickups sound, without vibratory loss through the coupling points.

Perhaps you could've taken a gander at a Switch, with VibraCell Technology:





.... but sadly they are currently "on hiatus" - they've closed up shop for lack of business. Used ones can occasionally be found on eBay, though not at just this moment.

I came across them via their Innovo model, which had a hex pickup system, and of course we all know that this means..... MIDI controller! I talked with several owners over the years, and they almost all said that this was a very decent guitar, for the money.

FWIW.....






sumgai

[4real]

Oh, ok...and here I thought you just wanted to join play Nile Rogers in a 'Chic" cover band...



here's a how to play the famous riff of Le Freak...

...

This thread generated a little more traffic than I expected and has wavered and caromed all over the place. Even some irony in the posts --- was it long813 who talked about how the substrata (guitar body) "resonance" affected the sound.... of course the whole "tone plastic" terminology sprung from a discussion attempting to debunk resonance as a major element in a solid body guitar's palate .... resonance being - "the prolongation of sound by reflection; reverberation..." A term relevant to acoustics where the 'reverberation' occurs in the box's chamber and air vibrations are reflected off of multiple surfaces....

I think when we hear folks talk about resonance in a solid body they are trying to describe the variable ways that different materials dissipate string vibration through the coupling points bridge, posts, screws, nut and tuners, and that various (usually wood) materials dissipate those osculations in ways that affected the heard sound in either pleasing or disappointing ways. Agreed, I just wish they would not use the word resonance, since it means something else.

Did i miss this discussion?

Here is some source material... www.phys.unsw.edu.au/~jw/guitar/intro_engl.html

And here, an intereting post in such a discussion, here... acapella.harmony-central.com/showthread.php?2535092-electric-guitar-body-resonance

I thought this post good enough and relevant to post here in full...

First, a few simple to understand generalizations;

The first biggie, good tone is an opinion, not a fact. And even cheap guitars are made following the same laws of physics. Nowadays, even cheap guitars are actually made pretty well. And the difference in the details is getting smaller every day. People seem to think there is some conspiracy to sell them expensive tone woods, when the truth is, most tone woods are actually pretty cost effective to use. Guitar manufacturing is a pretty small market for wood.

Now let’s get on with it.

A rigid high mass guitar has more sustain. It has to be a “rigid” mass too, a block of hard rubber is high mass, but it’ll absorb almost all the vibrations. But note, more sustain doesn’t necessarily make a better sounding guitar. Tone does. Otherwise maybe guitars would be made of aluminum or carbon fibres and everyone would be happy.

Aluminum guitars sound like crap IMHO, so do brass and Plexiglas ones. Ibanez dragged a brass monster around in the 70’s and it sustained like crazy, sounded like crap. There was no complexity to the notes; they just went "Ping…" for ages. I had an aluminum necked Kramer, same thing.
BTW aluminum may be a light weight metal, but it’s a lot heavier than wood.

Newton’s First Law, “Every object in a state of uniform motion tends to remain in that state of motion unless an external force is applied to it.” Basically, something moves until it's stopped by something. So the fact that a note fades, tells us that that energy is going somewhere. Some drag from the pickup, air resistance maybe… something else is going on.

We also have to remember Newton’s Third Law “For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.” If the string vibrates, so do things connected to it, and the better they are connected, the more efficient is this transfer of energy. A guitar vibrates with equal energy as the strings do. Of course the mass of the guitar will spread out that string’s energy pretty far. That .00001 oz string moves a whole lot more freely than that 10 pound guitar will, but with the same amount of energy! If you don't think your guitar vibrates, just strum the strings and lean your guitar against a door and listen.

A resonant piece of wood affects the tone of a note by absorbing some frequencies and reinforcing others. A resonant body tends to have less sustain un-amplified for the simple reason the energy has been used to make the body vibrate, so much so that you can hear it. And once you realize that a rubber guitar, a brass one, a wood one and a plastic one would sound different, you must agree that different woods will also make a difference, though to a much smaller degree. And remember even cheap guitars are made out of woods chosen for their tone, not just price. Cost effective tone woods sound better then a guitar made of wet noodles.

Now a body made of MORE Pieces means you have pieces with slightly different nodal points and being glued together, they'll vibrate a lot less then a free vibrating piece. In the late 70's there were a number of custom manufacturers who made what later were called breadboard guitars, and while they looked killer, they weren't very toneful.

Now the complexity of tone comes in;

Why do guitarists find they love the tone of electric guitars that sound great acoustically, if they have less sustain? Hint, have you ever hit a note and stood just in the right place by your amp and it sustained forever? Right, not only is the moving string vibrating the body, the vibrating air is moving it too, and that moves the strings again. The louder your amp, the more your guitar vibrates. This acoustic coupling has an effect on tone and sustain, and a good sounding guitar acoustically, has the tonal properties you prefer that can now be acted upon, and reinforced, by the moving air.

Now once you realize that a guitar body moves, even slightly, you also note that the pickup is mounted to the body and it will vibrate the same as the body does. Remember leaning your guitar against a door? A pickup doesn’t know the difference between the string moving in front of it, or its motion under the string. It’s the changes in the magnetic field that gives the output, and those changes are the same if the string moves or the pickup does. So the strings moving in front of a pickup, that’s also moving, but slightly differently because of the absorption and reinforcement characteristics of the body, will affect the tone too. That’s why some people go to great lengths to mount a pickup directly to a guitar’s body and not use springs or a pick guard for support. It’s to get as much of that energy and body effect as possible.

Then why do some people like a Strat with its pickup’s spring mounted to a pick guard? They like the tonal effects of that. Remember, tone is an opinion, and that’s just one of the many reasons a Strat doesn’t sound like a Tele, Explorer or Les Paul.




If you pluck the string on the left, the one on the right will ring in sympathy showing the vibration travels through the wood. Different woods or other materials will affect how accurate the transition is (and you might not want accurate!). And the string on the right's ringing will also affect the one the left!



If you vibrate the string at a certain frequency you'll get a tone. You'll also get a tone by vibrating the pickup. So if the pickup is mounted to a body that vibrates, it'll have an effect.

In terms of 'resonance' what people mean, and I think fits in to this term, not just the idea of 'reverberation' as in an acoustic gutiars air chamber, is that everything has a 'resonance' to it and a primary resonance frequency. Often these will create 'dead notes' or even booming notes when the string vibration and the resonance of the structure is reached. So, it can and does effect the string. Some parts of the gutiar are particularly prone, the headstock for intance can 'resonate' more due to it's relatively 'flimsiness' and being directly attached to the strings. We can observe how adding 'mass' to the head can significantly effect teh resonant frequencie.

Mainly, I see a lot of these things as filters as is being suggeted. A structure that can vibrate is going to end up interfering with the way a string vibrates, less and you will get less interferance, espesically damping, and so more qualities like 'sustain' and harmonics sustaining in a note.

However, before people get carried away, 'sustain' as the post quoted so well explains is a two edged sword and not an 'ideal' at all.

We like 'complexity' in the notes, vibrating all the harmonics in the series strongly can sound 'out of tune' like the complexities in teh 'clang of a bell' especially when this is combined with the westeren musical 'temperament' that has been adjusted to be out of tune in order to create our complex harmonic language' and in praticularl, to make all keys 'equal' and so allow modulation.

...

Anyway, one aspect that is not so often discussed in all this kind of thing is the 'shape' of a note which to me seems to be a 'huge' part of the 'tone equation' and how we percieve differences in gutiars. My LP for instance and is typicall, has a 'bloom' to it, a slow attack and long sustain and 'smooth' kind of tone. A telecaster will typically ahve a very 'explosive' rich almost dissonat harmonic 'burst', a very quick rich attack, settling quickly to a fairly 'pure' note after this 'event'. Of course, a lot of factors, but certainly it is not about the mojo of the pickup on this 'shape'. So, a split or even putting a tele pickup on an LP will not make it a 'tele' in teh 'shape' of the note...

...

For plastic guitars accentuating these qualities of 'sustain' without regard to the loose term 'tone' and it's many factors, the Steinberger is a structure that really accentuated those qualities. Incredibly stiff and light carbon fibre, massive bridge tuning mechanisim and no head or other qualities that can dampen the strings vibration....many find these guitars sound a bit 'clinical' or lacking in colour, though tis may well be a desirable quality of 'tone'...not making a value distinction on that term.

Others might desire a hollow guitar, even if the resonances create damping effects that might make it a bit 'inconsistent'...the damping effects and such create a 'character' and 'shape' of notes that selects some harmonics more than others say.

The acoustic guitars complexity is not simply a result of the standing waves of the reverberration of air within it's chamber, it's 'tuning of the top' which is a very flexible mounting for the strings, has many complex vibrations that damp or reinforce the way the strings vibrate on certain notes.

One of the interesting things about materials such as those that are used in the 'switch' guitars there, that I found 'exciting' when I first heard of them, it that this kind of molded 'surfboard construction' would allow things to be a bit 'tuned' in the construction and other benefitss potentially, in manufacturing and the possibilities of design and durability and finish and shape (as the 3D printing thing shows)...not that 'switch' actually achieved that or worked on that area of the design or that the market was going to accept such a 'plastic guitar'...but an interesting proposition.


...


So, there you go, Xmas morning...did you really think I'd let my antipodean friend gumbo top my word count, did you really think i'd not give you all a monster post as a pressie....well, think again. Actually, I woke at 4am here and thought I'd give my fingers a work out before returning to slumber...but still, some food for thought all teh same!

[gumbo]

".......did you really think I'd let my antipodean friend gumbo top my word count...."

Right...
...but you've got to realise that 'pasting' doesn't count..

...however, we do all acknowledge that you're probably still tired from World Orgasm Day...

[newey]

Actually, I woke at 4am here and thought I'd give my fingers a work out before returning to slumber..

So, verbosity for the sake of a finger workout, like playing endless scales? ;D

[sumgai]

Dec 24, 2012 20:10:26 GMT -5 newey said:

Actually, I woke at 4am here and thought I'd give my fingers a work out before returning to slumber..

So, verbosity for the sake of a finger workout, like playing endless scales? ;D

[/size]
Verbosity, eh? And here I thought, after we've been told how many times that he's freshly single, 4 was holding those fingers in a circular shape with his thumb......

[4real]

Pays to advertise...

[ashcatlt]

Dec 24, 2012 23:10:25 GMT -5 sumgai said:

Verbosity, eh? And here I thought, after we've been told how many times that he's freshly single, 4 was holding those fingers in a circular shape with his thumb......

Holy crap, sg! Well, ok then...

It took him a long time to type that with one hand. He started typing at 0400 and didn't post until almost 1300!

I have two hands. A different date every night!

Anywho...

4real actually spilled some real seeds of knowledge there. I don't think I've ever heard "guitar tone" described in that way before, nor have I really ever thought of it in that way myself. And I should have. It's the most basic tenet of synthesis. The timbre of any tone is defined by the relative amplitude envelope of its harmonics. Simple, elegant, and really the key to every aspect of "mojo" in the audio world.

[4real]

Dec 25, 2012 15:40:44 GMT -5 ashcatlt said:

Dec 24, 2012 23:10:25 GMT -5 sumgai said:

Verbosity, eh? And here I thought, after we've been told how many times that he's freshly single, 4 was holding those fingers in a circular shape with his thumb......

Holy crap, sg! Well, ok then...

It took him a long time to type that with one hand. He started typing at 0400 and didn't post until almost 1300!

I have two hands. A different date every night!

Anywho...

4real actually spilled some real seeds of knowledge there. I don't think I've ever heard "guitar tone" described in that way before, nor have I really ever thought of it in that way myself. And I should have. It's the most basic tenet of synthesis. The timbre of any tone is defined by the relative amplitude envelope of its harmonics. Simple, elegant, and really the key to every aspect of "mojo" in the audio world.

Thanks..yes I did substantially cut and paste there...but it is explained better than I did...plus I ahd to use search skills and read the darn threads and such to find that 'gem' plus look a t a bit of 'crap' to find something salient. One day I will get myself organised and just cut and paste from stuff I've said before or better yet, edit ideas down and just post 'links'...

...

4real actually spilled some real seeds of knowledge there.

I'm prone to the innuendo myself in real life, so touche to you all...

Ok so...

The timbre of any tone is defined by the relative amplitude envelope of its harmonics. Simple, elegant, and really the key to every aspect of "mojo" in the audio world.

Well...errr...that's odd to me, because how else can one understand what is going on? Perhaps I take for granted my education, I did a year of 'physics of sound' in my first year at uni.

More important though, and less discussed and ignored, also from 'synthisis' approach, combinations of waves' is the SHAPE thing though.

This is more challenging as it can't be altered through 'wiring' though can be through technique to some extent.

Obviosuly if one leaves aside the 'harmonic' content...what I am referring to is ADSR...which thinks in terms of a note over time, not as some kind of static thing. This is how we percive things and there are psycho acoustic effect far more from that as well.ZSome concepts are explained here...



For instance, take say a very distroted grainy crunchy sound...ok, so that will sound metal/rock perhaps when played conventionally and with a quick 'attack'...but that same sound with a 'volume swell' can make it sound 'sweet and smooth'...

An obvious example is EVH's cathedral...perhaps...


Jeff beck does far more subtle and 'advanced' uses of such effects constantly while playing...(if not see thins amazing bass solo or even who show...get it)



...

Ok...so...

What has this to do with 'plastic guitars. Well, we can do trick wiring and play with the construction and 'resonant' qualities of the structure that does effect the quality of the 'harmonic mix' and the envelope. A 'plastic material' could be used to to provide a consistent and predictable and finly tuned ability to influence these elements in a guitars design, plus provide other options and durability and cost effectivenes too over traditional 'wood'....so something of interest.

However, I'm not sure that it can offer a reasonable 'tning' of the most important elements of a guitar's 'tone'....these things are very 'complex'...

Ok...so ADSR that you need to keep in mind, Jeff Bexk is a master of this and thinking in those terms very much in his musical expression.

A attack D decay S sustain R release

simple. You can and I did when younger aply this to 'pitch'...slow down some great 'benders' and really listen to how a not is manipulated interms of speed of a bend, if it reaches the target pitch and how long it takes to get there, is held (perhaps with vibration) and then 'released'...these things are like finger prints...but it is also something one can 'practice' so it becomes 'intuitive' and if done with perhaps the 'fingerprint' analogy, one can hone in on the qualities that you like (perhaps from other players) and then 'practice that' slowly till it becomes 'intuitive'. I seriously did this when young, but it quickly becomjes intutive and natural to your 'style'. Not thinking about it...well, beginner players will over bend or sound lazy or mechanical rather than expressive...eventually with a lot of plying, one will get there I guess, most do, but it takes a lot longer than breaking things down, diggin deep, making judgements and havign taht natural and under one's belt.

...

Where was I...

Right...so, one can play with the 'pitch' through beninding, even more so with the trem...

Once can play with the 'tone' by moving where and how one picks along the flength of the string, perhaps incorporating a hybridg sysle so you can add things like string pulling and flesh brushing that can seriously affect attack...etc

But in terms of gutiar 'constriuction' and tonal qualities'..as in the infamous 'this guitar has a great 'tone''...there is soemthing to it, though subjective and within context as to it's 'value'...

That is why I am frustrated in simplistic threads or posts about just one 'element' such as 'sustain'...it is almost as useful as the word 'tone' to me...

First thing in the morning again, so all 'off the cuff here'...perhaps I should refine and edit and better explain such things, though there are 'books' you know...

So...it is a complex thing. You ahve ina guitar tone, the basic concept of ADSR. Now, consider this, all the harmonics within the strings vibration have their own ADSR qualities. In a tele you get a very fast and complex 'burst' of attack in all ahrmonics that wettles down quickly to a smooth lower level largely fundamental dominant frequency. A neck pup will accentuate this, rooll the tone down to rid of harmoics, even more so...the bridge pup near the end of the string, will continue to have a complex and sometimes 'dissonant' mix of harmonics for longer. Conversely, a LP will often 'bloom', intringsicly the guitar string is going 'plick'...but there is a slower 'attack' generally, the hearmonic mix will remain and evolve longer. Add distortion which compesses the signal (altering the ADSR) and keeps the harmonics that are sounding up, you get a very complex tone that can be held for quite a while with complexity.

So...one might consider a 'sustain' not of teh fundamental, that will be a given...but how the layers of ADSR are 'sustained' through the life of a note. Our brains are wired to place special importance on the 'attack' element on how we percieve a note, secondly perhaps the 'attack.

'My Thing' perhaps is to look at and refine these elements of playing, to play with 'intent' or at least try to do so...eventually for most things to become 'intutive' so one need not 'think' as that is something to be done in 'practice'....

In terms of gutiar design, well it is a matter of choice and tool for the job and all that. This justifies a 'more guitar' approach. The opposite to what I thought initially with the 'same guitar for everything' appaoch I started with and still do to a great extent, old habits die hard I guess...or perhaps I have a 'feel' for the qualities that I desire and suit my technique and musical context.

This feeds directly into the kind of decision making, say in buying my new guitar...which happens to be an acoustic, but the same applies to electrics. I wanted a complex tone that will 'sustain' with complexity, a wider fretbord sot hat I can manipulate things like vibrato within the chord and have the 'room' to mor subtly alter the qualities of notes withint a chord, something that 'response to' thechnique and less of a 'burst' in teh sound so it can do that 'bloom' thing...a faster attack can be coaxed from such a guitar with technique such as 'pulling the string' all the way through to a 'pop' of the string. You find this 'range' of sounds typical with classical instruments as an example, the nylon string guitar has a huge range of possiblilities in this regard. I wanted something taht could sustain with harmonic complexity throughout the note. I needed something with a big enough top that it could handle pitches as low as dropped C and still sound balanced, and a balanced tone over all, espeically in the mid range. I also chose a shorter scale lenght than is typical, this too has a big influence on the 'sound' and a slight pysical advantage in 'reach'...the shorter length changes the tension for the smae note on another guitar and provides a more 'slinky feel' for a heavier guage of string.

And many other aspects, one of the harder things though was to talk myself around the temptations of the mojo and the 'look' and all that...I did not end up with 'the guitar' that met 'everything' but hit the important points...nor did I end up with the 'look' that perhaps I'd ahve felt more comfortable or appealed in the end.

But, this is because I wanted a gutiar that would meet 'my needs'...there are a lot of guitars that do what they are good at, ofr a big loud 'strummer' gutiar, it's hard to go past a lot of huge 'drednaughts'...while my short lived foray into teaching recently, I got to lay and work on a few acoustic and none of them were the kinds of things I'd have wanted, but were far superior for what they were good at...

Ok...so, anyway...back to the 'discussion...i may if I ahve a mind to explore this kind of thing in a sepearte thread or 'essay' some time and not post christmas morning 'chat'...whould people be interested or contribute to such an endeavour?

...

As for the personal/sexual life...I have a few people that litterally do the palm slap / head shake thing lately...these times can be strange adventures. Laregely one hopes to not make detrimental decisions and remain disease free y'know. I know, should perhaps compartmentalize things a little more, but what the heck...were all men of the world and friends right?

Besides, being single again, I can do what I f'n like...such as type this kind of thing as I chosse...and play more guitar without the inner critic as transferred through another's eyes. I read a recent interview with Tommy E regarding this kind of thing and 'practice'...nevere play or practice in front of others. I am sure there are a heap of 'clams' that TE makes, but does it in 'private' and that could be good advice to the majority of YouTube players that put stuff up way before 'ready' for public consumption...

[gumbo]

OK, you win the word count, ok?

[Runewalker]

Oh, ok...and here I thought you just wanted to join play Nile Rogers in a "Chic" cover band...

4R




Wow, Nile is my ghost twin. We look exactly alike, especially in that beatific "I got the funk" grin-grimace he has going on. Although I don't crouch down in that ducky stance so much anymore. Of course I frequently hear the description "Chic" applied to me. Thanks!

I am am a fan of caroming, it is like jamming, just seeing where the rhythm and moment takes you. I think I will post the sound samples that Son-o worked on in the samples folder, just to bubble them up in relationship to the acrylic, and it's tone plastic properties, since they seem lost in the winding. However the discussion continues to propel the resonance debate, or maybe clarification...

thanks for all the work. 4F You have some unusual combinations of the following: fastest typist-writer in the world; exhorbitant amounts of free time; a passion for knowledge sound and understanding; prolific thought; mastery of minutia; lack of a woman yelling at you to take out the trash. Way to wind up 2012!

RW

[gumbo]

Wow..... couldna said it better RW..

...and +1 to 4r for all that work, enthusiasm, sentiment and free time!!


Happy New Year to all Forumites from DownHere where we get it soon & HOT!



...and yes, I did spot the latest bit, sg..

[sumgai]

Dec 31, 2012 3:58:15 GMT -5 gumbo said:

...and yes, I did spot the latest bit, sg..

I prefer to think of it as the TFPA, or the Truth In Forum Posting Act.




Signed, your pal from the Frozen North.