|
Post by chrisasauru on Feb 1, 2013 16:12:39 GMT -5
The original plan was to mod my strat with two toggle switches, one to add the neck to any position (gilmour switch), and one to reverse the bridge pickup for phasing with neck or middle. Instead of a on/on DPDT however I somehow walked out with a on/off/on switch. While researching I came across a variation on the 'Brian May wiring' and now I'm wondering if I can adapt this for my own use and kill two birds with one stone. This diagram uses 3 on/off/on switches with the 'up' position turning the pickup on, and down turning the pickup on in reverse. Could this theory apply to just the bridge pickup on an otherwise normally functioning Strat? Like a Gilmour switch with two functions? If it is possible, I'll have to call it the 'MayMour' switch.
|
|
|
Post by JohnH on Feb 1, 2013 18:13:58 GMT -5
hello and welcome to GN2
The scheme you showed with three switches is OK, but it is hard to think of a logical wiring for it combined with a normal 5 way switch. The B pup would tend to be always off when in the middle position, even if the 5-way is at position 1. And if it was wired to also do the bridge-on function, then again the 5 way switch would be redundant in position 1.
Maybe someone can think of a sensible way to use them all together. e.g. Maybe something based on having the 5 way just control B and N, more like a Telecaster, then the on-off-on adds the middle in or out of phase, and probably swap N and M pickups for humcancelling.
Or just get the intended switches.
cheers
John
|
|
|
Post by newey on Feb 1, 2013 18:29:35 GMT -5
chrisasauru-
OK, first let's define exactly what you want here. I think I have it, but let's be sure.
You have a Strat. I will assume it is, at present, wired as per typical Strat fashion, with a 5-way lever switch as a pickup selector, since you said "normally functioning". Am I correct on that?
Next, you want a single On-Off-On toggle to give you:
1) Bridge pickup always "on", in phase, in conjunction with the 5-way switch selection.
2) Bridge pickup controlled by the 5-way switch as per normal Strat operation.
3) Bridge pickup always "on", out-of-phase ("OOP"), in conjunction with the 5-way switch selection.
(Again, have I got that right? And, does the order of selections matter?)
I think this could be done with an On-On-On switch, but I'm not sure until I put pen to paper. I'm doubtful that it can be done with an On-Off-On switch. The middle "Off" position really limits your options.
The BM wiring which you posted doesn't really help your cause any here. First, in that scheme, the middle position turns the pickup "off", whereas you want something to happen in that position- a bypass to the 5-way switch. I'm not sure that can happen without that center switch position making some connections somewhere.
Also, the BM wiring has the pickups connected in series, whereas your Strat combines the pickups in parallel, so it's a vastly different thing overall.
Did you perhaps save the receipt for the switch? Can you return it if, as I suspect, I figure this out for an On-On-On switch but can't for an On-Off-On?
EDIT: Ninja'd by JohnH. We're both saying the same thing essentially.
|
|
|
Post by chrisasauru on Feb 1, 2013 18:30:30 GMT -5
Thanks for the reply John! I have a 3-way from an old tele somewhere so I think I'll ponder over that a bit. Yeah any sane person would probably make sure they picked up the right switch! Whatever happens to Electric Lady Hands, I'll be sure to post diagrams ect.
|
|
|
Post by newey on Feb 1, 2013 19:58:34 GMT -5
I've looked at this using either an On-On-On or an On-Off-On and can't work it out with either switch. The problem is that, in order to swap the phase, the pup's hot and ground wires both have to be switched, but, to bypass to the 5-way requires the negative connection get to ground in that position as well.
I either end up with the pickup ungrounded in one position, or shorted to hot in that position. So, unless someone more clever than I can pick up the cudgel, I'm ready to say "no way".
Which leaves either a completely new scheme, or buying the correct switches, both as suggested by JohnH.
|
|
|
Post by JohnH on Feb 1, 2013 20:16:08 GMT -5
Good, glad we agree.
I like the idea of the Teleswitch, if there is one in the spares box. It could be a very logical selection of options.
|
|
|
Post by newey on Feb 1, 2013 22:59:38 GMT -5
Intrigued by the idea of a combo "bridge on" and OOP switch, I did work out how to do it using the Kent Armstrong "Brian May" 4P3T switch. These are expensive switches, running about $20 a pop. So, you can have what you want, at a price . . . such is life. This is an On-On/Off-On switch. In the center position, two poles make connections, two poles don't. Arrows on the diagram show the center connections. Note that I have omitted the neck and middle pickup wiring and the tone pot wiring: The KA switches are available from WD Music Products here: www.wdmusic.com/WDE8.htmlAs a further note, if you (or anyone) does try this mod, moving the middle tone pot over to the bridge instead is advisable.
|
|
|
Post by JohnH on Feb 2, 2013 7:17:40 GMT -5
But what happens if the switch has all poles connecting to the left, so bridge hot is grounded, but the 5-way is set to position 1, so Bridge hot is also to output, hence a dead setting?
|
|
|
Post by newey on Feb 2, 2013 8:27:50 GMT -5
Arrgh! Nice catch, John. I've got an extra pole to play with so there should be a work-around, have to take another look at it.
Or maybe, move the tone pots and free up the other half of the 5-way, then use that pole so that the KA switch only operates in the other positions.
|
|
|
Post by JohnH on Feb 2, 2013 18:17:00 GMT -5
I suspect a work around may be harder to find that it may seem. I had a couple of tries, but kept needing the spare pole to be connecting the other way in the centre position. There are four pole switches with one or two dpdt on/on./on or on/off/on's combined, but what appeared to be required was something asymetrical that does not exist i think.
A good puzzle for asmith as he sits on a bus, stuck in a snowdrift somewhere in the Mid west. John
|
|
|
Post by chrisasauru on Feb 2, 2013 18:37:57 GMT -5
Thanks for the welcomes guys, and ofc fussing over my brain farts ;D
The combinations you listed were exactly what I was looking for newey. sorry for not replying in my last post, appears I've been ninjad too!
The Armstrong switch seems like a great idea for a future mod (or maybe the example I used) but for now I think I'll revert to the original plan.
Even though the diagrams are quite simple I'll still post them if they're wanted. I really appreciate that gurus such as yourselves are sharing all this knowledge!
|
|
|
Post by newey on Feb 2, 2013 20:20:33 GMT -5
Yeah, John, I looked at it some more and I think you're right, there's no way around that dead position. Using the second pole of the 5-way. I can move the dead spot from position 1 to position 2 at best. And as you found, the 4-pole doesn't make the needed connections in the center position. Funny, this doesn't seem like it should be that tough, not with a 4-pole switch to play around with.
|
|
|
Post by sumgai on Feb 3, 2013 3:37:09 GMT -5
Funny, this doesn't seem like it should be that tough, not with a 4-pole switch to play around with. It's not.... if'n you'll remember what I've always told you, both in public and in private - think outside of the box! chrisasauru's goal can be accomplished with just a standard 4P3T, which is a clue right there. (Although strictly speaking, the 4th pole is needed only to avoid the Middle pickup from sounding out in the Blower On position, should the pup selector be in the M+B position during Blower operation. Otherwise, I could "name that switching circuit" in only 3 poles! And that's another clue!! ) And for ca.... Hi, and to the NutzHouse! I'm the resident whack-job in this NutzHouse! I like to drop little bon mots like the above, just to stir the pot - it's my only joy in life (well, aside from my cats, Fender and Gibson). Don't worry, one of the gang will get you up and running, after some give-and-take conversation for a short bit of time. Hope you enjoy the ride! ;D sumgai
|
|
|
Post by JohnH on Feb 3, 2013 4:12:26 GMT -5
Funny, this doesn't seem like it should be that tough, not with a 4-pole switch to play around with. It's not.... if'n you'll remember what I've always told you, both in public and in private - think outside of the box! chrisasauru's goal can be accomplished with just a standard 4P3T, which is a clue right there. (Although strictly speaking, the 4th pole is needed only to avoid the Middle pickup from sounding out in the Blower On position, should the pup selector be in the M+B position during Blower operation. Otherwise, I could "name that switching circuit" in only 3 poles! And that's another clue!! ) sumgai Sumgai - if you know how to do this with any kind of 3-position toggle switch, which was what newey was investigating, then you are coridially invited to show us how. Yes it is easy enough with a true 4p3t switch, but that would likely be a rotary switch.
|
|
|
Post by newey on Feb 3, 2013 8:51:00 GMT -5
@sg-
It isn't a "blower switch" he's wanting. It's a "bridge on", both in and OOP. So we need the middle pup "on", so he can get Br OOP with middle.
|
|
|
Post by sumgai on Feb 3, 2013 14:03:00 GMT -5
John, Rotary versus "side slap" is merely a matter of actuation - how the switch is manually manipulated. That's why Engineers like schematics - details like that are best left to the folks responsible for how to implement the final packaging. And "cordial"? How can I maintain my image of a cranky curmudgeon if I'm being cordial? ;D
newey, You have it mostly correct. But the blower must have Bridge only, regardless of what position the 5-way is in - no selector switch, no pots, just Bridge only and straight out to the jack. In the other two positions, the 5-way is in use, and in one of those two positions, the Bridge must be reverse polarized. We're agreed on that, eh? So, all that remains is to stop thinking of controlling everything at once, and think about how to implement each part of the whole - IOW, modularize the way things need to work, then combine those modules in the most efficient manner. As to making and posting my own drawing, I can do that, but I'm strapped for time just now. I'll see how much goofing off I can accomplish later this afternoon, but it may be way late tonight before I can post anything.... if then. It might be tomorrow, for all I can guess right now. HTH sumgai
|
|
|
Post by JohnH on Feb 3, 2013 14:24:21 GMT -5
John, Rotary versus "side slap" is merely a matter of actuation - how the switch is manually manipulated. That's why Engineers like schematics - details like that are best left to the folks responsible for how to implement the final packaging. sumgai The distinction that I was intending, between toggles and notary's, is that a three position rotary switch has three output lugs for each pole, whereas three position toggles only have two output legs per pole, and the central position is characterized by which are connected and to which output, as in on/on/on and on/off/on But, new thought on the challenge set by newey: A four pole on/on/on (ie no on/off/on part) can be wired to replicate a true 2p3t by cascading each pair of switch sections, to give three separate output lugs per pole. Given such a 2p3t, it could be wired so that hot and cold from the bridge pickup go only to the two poles. The 'outer' output lugs connect the bridge wires to hot and ground, in or out of phase. The 5 way is not involved with B, but is still doing its thing with M and N. In the 'central' position, the bridge wires are connected to ground, and to the usual 5-way lug. John
|
|
|
Post by newey on Feb 3, 2013 16:07:41 GMT -5
sg-
Sorry to be disagreeable, sg. But chrisasauru earlier confirmed that I had correctly described what he wanted when I said:
So, the "bridge on" isn't overriding the 5-way (as it might in a blower arrangement), but is on in conjunction with the 5-way so that he can get the N + B as well as N + M + B, and with the switch the opposite way, get the bridge OOP with those same combinations.
@ JohnH:
I think you may be on to something with a "standard" 4P3T On-On-On. I had thought of the KA switch because it seemed we would want the OOP "X" part of the switching to be totally disconnected in the center position. But I'll look at the other switch . . .
|
|
|
Post by sumgai on Feb 4, 2013 1:27:30 GMT -5
newey, So the Blower, in any configuration, got tossed out the window? All we have here is: Normal, with Bridge always on; Normal, no mods; Normal, with Bridge always on, out of phase. OK, we'll go with that, but nonetheless, it still can't be done with chris's original purchase, the DP3T on-off-on switch. However, it can be done with either a standard 4P3T or with your original idea of using the KA variation - if chris is willing to alter the functional positions on the switch. By that I mean: Up: Standard, no mods; Middle: Standard, Bridge always on, but OoP; Down: Standard, Bridge always on, In Phase. I'm thinking of normal stage usage. If one has to fiddle to find the Middle position, and if that's the position used most often, then pretty soon the Frustration Factor is gonna rise to an explosive level - these switches are small, and are not forgiving of a ham-fisted player in Full Throttle mode, sorry to say. Better would be to have the Normal (no Bridge always on) position at one end or the other. Further to that, I think that Bridge always on In Phase is more commonly accessed, so it probably should be at the other end of the lever's travel. This leaves the Bridge always on OoP sound in the Middle, but if that's accessed only ocassionally, then that should be acceptable. Obviously, if chris uses the OoP sound much more often, then the wiring can easily be flipped around to accomodate that choice. I think that about covers it, providing that the Blower concept is truly a non-starter. HTH sumgai
|
|
|
Post by newey on Feb 4, 2013 6:48:23 GMT -5
I don't think that the switch positions were ever said to be etched in stone, so I'm sure that having "normal" to one side or the other is fine.
I still can't work out how to do it, though, so let's see a diagram!
|
|
|
Post by JohnH on Feb 4, 2013 14:13:20 GMT -5
Here's a schematic sketch using a 4 pole on/on/on: Its shown as if the lever is in the centre position, which is on and OOP. The order can be changed. If all the contacts go up, its on and in phase, and down is in phase under the control of the 5 way. John
|
|
|
Post by newey on Feb 4, 2013 18:25:22 GMT -5
Good job, John! Another tidbit to add to the arsenal.
|
|
|
Post by sumgai on Feb 5, 2013 2:22:29 GMT -5
Sorry, I'm pullling a triple shift - back-to-back-to-back.
I'll try to get something drawn up soonest, but pretty soon I'm gonna need a bit o' rest.... it might be another day, please bear with me.
sumgai
|
|
|
Post by sumgai on Feb 8, 2013 13:02:22 GMT -5
WAIT! I'm confused (nothing new there!). Since we're blowing off the Blower switch (but no one's confirmed or denied that - yet), why can't we just use the third (or fourth) pole of the KA switch to interrupt the Bridge's connection to the 5-way so that when Bao-OoP is selected, it won't be shorted in Positions 4 and 5?
|
|
|
Post by sumgai on Feb 8, 2013 13:23:21 GMT -5
WAIT! I'm confused (nothing new there!). Since we're blowing off the Blower switch (but no one's confirmed or denied that - yet), why is Chris's originally purchased on-off-on switch no longer valid? Yes, when Bao-OoP is selected, the guitar will go "silent" in Positions 4 & 5 of the 5-way, but so what - that's a feature, not a bug.... it's useful for when you set your axe down during a break! Besides, you still get all seven possible combinations, right? Oh, alright, alright.... you don't want no dead spots. Thankfully we can do that. (Sheesh, some people's kids. ) Just use the KA switch as previously suggested.... use either the 3rd or 4th pole to control the Bridge's connection to the 5-way selector such that when Bao-OoP is chosen, the Bridge is no longer hooked up to the 5-way. Presto! - no more dead spots. Ooops! Did I just think outside of the box again? Curses, I hate it when that happens. sumgai
|
|