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Post by silencer006 on Mar 29, 2013 21:14:34 GMT -5
Hi guys, new member here. Please bare with me on my n00b questions. My previous project was wiring a simple bridge telecaster pickup. Now I'm tackling something bigger. I have a SG copy that I have a dimarzio super distortion for the neck (the bridge is still stock). I have a on/on/on switch that I will use for switching between series/parallel/single coil. And I also want to use a push pull knob for in/out phase. My question: on dimarzio's diagram here: www.dimarzio.com/sites/defau.../4Conductor.pdfon the top 2nd page is what I'm wanting to d. It says to wire it in the same way as dual sound (on page 1) so do I wire the red and green wire from the pickup first to the selector switch first, then to the phase switch (my push pull) then to the outs OR from the pickup to the PHASE then to the selector switch where they stop? Reason I'm asking is because it doesn't show it coming from the pickup to the selector switch in that diagram even though it does it in the earlier one (dual sound on page 1). Hope that makes sense...Thanks for any help!
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Post by newey on Mar 30, 2013 6:04:10 GMT -5
silencer-
Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2!
Your link to the DM diagram is broken, and since what you say after that relates to the diagram, it's a bit tough to decipher.
But I think I've got the gist, assuming that by "selector switch" you mean the series/parallel/split switch that you're adding, and not the neck/bridge pickup selector which is presumably already present.
Think of the new switches as being two separate modules. Your phase switch is a good example- two wires go in, two wires come out, and you just need to insert the module in the appropriate place.
The series/parallel/split coil module deals with both coils of your HB- you use all 4 signal wires for that. On that one, 4 wires go into the module, but only two come out.
So, the series/parallel/split coil module comes first in line after the pickup. Once you've selected series, parallel or a SC, then you decide whether whatever you've selected on the neck will be in/out of phase with the bridge pickup. So, the phase switch comes next in line.
After the phase switch, what comes next depends on whether your SG has individual V and T controls, or master V and T. If it has individual controls, they come next, before the pickup selector; if they're masters, the selector switch comes first, then the master V and T.
HTH
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Post by silencer006 on Mar 30, 2013 7:18:01 GMT -5
Hi, and thanks for the welcome and reply Newey. Yep, the selector or on/on/on switch was for selecting series/parallel, etc... I think you've helped me correctly, but I'll try and post the link again just in case. www.dimarzio.com/sites/default/files/diagrams/4Conductor.pdfI was planning on using my in/out phase as the push/pull knob on my volume. In the diagram it says to wire it up next, as you said too. Yes, since the bridge and neck pickup has individual controls. Then to the 3-way selector I assumed too.
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Post by newey on Mar 30, 2013 8:02:35 GMT -5
Sounds like you've got it then, silencer006. The DM diagrams are a bit tough to read, so here's a more "stylized" version, courtesy of an old hand hereabouts, unklmickey. Version "d" is the one for an On-On-On switch, it gives you the coil split in the center position. (The other 3 versions are just for series/parallel, using a two-position On-On switch). This may prove easier to follow than DM's version. while it doesn't show your wire colors, the wire to the top of the diagram corresponds to the "hot out" (red for DM), and the bottom is the "not hot" (green for DM). The coil shown as the top coil on the diagram is the one that operates in the coil split position. Since you are not splitting the bridge pickup, the question of which coil gets split from the neck won't matter for purposes of hum-cancellation. Since it's in the neck position, the question of which coil gets split probably won't matter as far as the sound, either- the slight difference in the coil's position along the string might make an audible difference at the bridge, but is unlikely to matter at the neck position. But you can have either coil as the one operating in the split position. If coil selection does matter to you, just let us know and we''ll get that settled as well.
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Post by silencer006 on Mar 30, 2013 8:33:07 GMT -5
Aw, thanks a lot again Newey. I'm really excited to get this project done as it's my first "major" fix for my guitar. You've really cleared up the confusion so tonight I'm gonna get going! I have another quick question. Might be silly, I dunno: When I look at the diagrams on dimarzio's the numbers on my on/on/on switch it has it numbered from 1-6, but when I look at the switch itself it don't have any numbers for the ports. How do I know I'm not holding it upside down or messing things up when I finally make the connections? I don't have a multimeter so I can't really check it but is there another way to be dead sure? I read on Seymour duncan's site that Type 1 switches are the most commonly used so I kinda assume that's what I have (just an allparts from my local music store) and that's what dimarzio's diagram shows. Either way, if it indeed is wrong, in the end couldn't that be fixed by just switching the positions on the top and bottom wires?
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Post by ashcatlt on Mar 30, 2013 11:24:00 GMT -5
I don't have a multimeter so I can't really check it but is there another way to be dead sure? Battery and LED or small DC bulb? You should just get yourself a meter. The cheap one from your local hardware or auto parts store will be good enough for most guitar projects. But there's no such thing as "upside down" on this type of switch.
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Post by newey on Mar 30, 2013 19:33:10 GMT -5
Ash is right, any numbering is strictly arbitrary and rotation doesn't matter. Hold the switch with the soldering lugs facing you. With the lever "up" from your perspective, the lower lugs on R and L each connect to the R and L center lugs. Lever down, the opposite- uppers connect to center lugs.
In the center position, the lower left lug connects to the left middle lug, while the right upper lug connects to the right middle lug.
It's easier to visualize with a diagram, I have one I can post but it's on my home computer and I'm not at home. I'll get to it tomorrow.
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Post by b4nj0 on Mar 30, 2013 20:31:41 GMT -5
Hey Newey, I have one of those 9 pin variants intended (supposedly) for true bypass wiring, and it did not follow the logic you suggest. I had to resort to ringing it out. The advice to take some of that money that you're going to be buried with and purchase a VOM is germane. A multimeter is for life, not just for ringing out a switch, especially so with regard to wiring up pick up circuits. A "battery" and lamp is the ebeneezer approach, but if falling back upon an LED, do include in the budget for a dropper resistor to limit the current. A transistor is the fastest fuse on three legs, and what is a transistor if not back to back diodes? de g4vrr.
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Post by newey on Mar 30, 2013 21:25:14 GMT -5
b4nj0-
9 pin variant? Are we talking about a three pole switch?
Those are symmetrical, like a 3-pole stomp switch for a pedal. You do have to suss those out with a meter (or at least a continuity tester, with a battery and LED/resistor, etc.).
But silencer006 was speaking, I believe, of a DPDT On-On-On switch. .
In any event, buy a multimeter, you'll probably need it eventually for troubleshooting anyway. I paid about $15 for one at Home Depot several years ago that has served me well. Get one that does at least three significant digits.
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Post by silencer006 on Mar 30, 2013 21:40:55 GMT -5
I didn't get around to soldering this today as things came up but I just wanted to pop in and say how thankful I am for all the great help I've gotten so far. I'm pretty sure I understand it now with you guys's help.
I have ... *gasp* yet another question. Once again, on the dimarzio diagram I posted above it: after the wires leave the on/on/on switch and goes to my push pull knob it says that the HOT wire, which I assume I've started on the bottom left lug (6) as a jumper cable goes to the output the original pickup was in. That was on the volume knobs lug. Does the RED wire also connect to that same place? Because it says it in the previous diagram (the dual sound only on p.1)? Don't wanna sound stupid but I just want to be sure since it's not marked clearly on that pic.
Btw, yes Newie and Banjo, mine is that dpdt on/on/on switch.
Thanks again for all the help!
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Post by newey on Mar 30, 2013 22:22:16 GMT -5
Sorry, I'm not following that. Oral descriptions of wiring diagrams are inherently problematic. You will want a hard-copy wiring diagram for reference while you're soldering anyway, so it's best to draw one up that we can collectively vet, as multiple eyes are better than only two. A picture is worth a thousand, after all.
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Post by b4nj0 on Mar 31, 2013 5:07:38 GMT -5
Three pole switch... Of course you are spot-on. I blame it on jet lag because the clocks had just leaped forward! The number of digits on a meter has no direct relation to its accuracy, but for the type of relative (ie, comparing one pick up to another) readings that we are concerned with, the more the merrier? I shall try to engage brain before posting in future.....
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Post by silencer006 on Mar 31, 2013 9:57:21 GMT -5
Thanks newey, for hanging in there with me. I totally understand and hear so myself that explaining it verbally causes confusion. I've tried looking for what I'm wanting to achieve on dimarzios diagram website but I can't locate the diagram for exactly what I want. The ones I find lacks the phase switch or have someting else hooked up to the bridge etc. I'm probably just stupid, but anyways.... I was gonna go by the dimarzios instructions that came with the pickup: www.dimarzio.com/sites/default/files/diagrams/4Conductor.pdfand this one seems to have the wiring the same way as my guitar had originally although it don't have the phase switch with: www.dimarzio.com/sites/default/files/diagrams/2h2v2t_3wtoggleortel2dpdt.pdfSo I was going to use those two diagrams but where my last question came from was that on the top right picture with the dual sound and phase switch ( www.dimarzio.com/sites/default/files/diagrams/4Conductor.pdf )... after the wires connect to the phase switch dimarzio shows that the RED and HOT wire goes off but they only say that the HOT is soldered to the original pickups place (my volume pot). Where does the RED go? I was assuming that it also goes to the hot out (volume pot) because they said it on left side of the instructions (where it says dual sound) I apologize for my lack of ability to explain it better, heh. I am learning though.
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Post by ashcatlt on Mar 31, 2013 11:51:45 GMT -5
The red and green wires in that diagram come from the pickup. It's like newey said above - the pickup mode switch (s/p/split) has four wires in and two wires out. In this case the two outputs would be jumpers connected directly to two of the input wires. So Dimarzio took the liberty of using those same wires as the two inputs to the phase switch and jumpering from there. It works fine, but I can see where its confusing.
So, red and green come from the pickup and don't need to go anywhere else. The "to hot" and "to ground" are the two outputs and go to the V pot. Interestingly, these two wires are interchangeable since the phase switch basically flips them around anyway!
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Post by silencer006 on Mar 31, 2013 15:55:25 GMT -5
Thanks, ashcatlt. So finally then, here's a crappy little diagram I drew just to confirm. Obviously I'm not skilled in this kinds of business but hopefully the idea comes through of how I got it figured. again for reference: www.dimarzio.com/sites/default/files/diagrams/4Conductor.pdfThanks a bunch, guys.
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Post by newey on Mar 31, 2013 18:03:05 GMT -5
OK, silencer, you have correctly translated the DM diagram for the Series/SC/parallel (ash's suggestion to call it a "pickup mode switch" is a good one, it's a lot easier to type!).
Your phase switch is close, but not quite right. It's actually easier than you have made it. You have two extra wires coming off of it that you neither want nor need.
You show two fuchsia-colored wires leading from the mode switch to the center lugs (lugs 2 and 5, to follow the numbering scheme) of the phase switch. Those wires are correct, that's bringing the signal from the mode switch to the phase switch.
But you also show two other fuchsia wires from the center lugs, one going to the V pot clockwise lug, the other to the back of the pot for ground. These wires are not supposed to be there; you need to remove those two. Without them, your phase switch will operate as intended.
The output from the phase switch comes from the blue wire from the "upper" lug (to the Vol pot CW lug) and the fuchsia wire to the back of the pot from the other "upper" lug. I call those the "upper" lugs since that is the way they will be oriented with the switch mounted in your guitar; as shown on your diagram, they're the ones to the right, closest to the pot.
There was an added reason that I suggested you do a diagram. It'll help you to understand what you're doing. You should trace the signal flow through the phase switch, you'll see how it works. Notice how the "X" wires connecting the two sides of the switch cause the "hot" and "ground" outputs to swap sides?
However, there is another issue you may wish to address. As wired, if the bridge pickup is also a DiMarzio or is of a similar orientation to the DM, then your OOP sound will occur with the P/P pushed "in", and the normal sound will occur with the knob pulled out.
If your bridge pickup is of a different brand/type, this may not be true. Testing can be done to ascertain whether the two pickups will be in or out of phase. Or, you can trust to luck, the odds are 50-50 you'll get it right.
If it turns out to be wrong, you can then either live with it that way, or go back in and rewire the switch.
If you need to do so, there are a couple of ways to do it. You can either swap the outputs (the fuchsia wire to the back of the pot goes to the Vol pot CW, the blue wire goes to the back of the pot) or the inputs (swap the positions of the two fuchsia wires from the mode switch).
One other note: As I said earlier, coil selection probably won't matter, but for the record, your "mode switch" selects the South coil, which is the screw coil for DM pickups. That's the usual choice, since some folks like to adjust their pole screws, and this wiring keeps the adjustability when in SC mode. But you can have it select the slug coil if desired.
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Post by silencer006 on Mar 31, 2013 20:19:21 GMT -5
Thanks Newey and Ash. Your patience with me is truly commendable haha So, if I understood you correctly this would be right... I think I'll be ok with the bridge humbucker. I understood how you explained how to change the wire otherwise. It's just a reg. stock humbucker there. While I'm posting this I might as well throw in yet another question (oh dear). Should be pretty easy though. The green, white, black, and red wires from the pickup are really thin/small. I'm sure you guys know what I'm talking about but I wasn't expecting them to be *this* small compared to my original pickup's wire. Anyways, is there a recommended length to cut off the protective cover to expose the wire more? I can barely see it. About 1/8 inch or so?
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Post by newey on Mar 31, 2013 20:34:26 GMT -5
The revised diagram is fine.
You can certainly strip the insulation back a little bit to make it easier to work with. Just don't do too much, as the odds of a short increase the more bare wire you end up having. However, you can also use a little piece of electrical tape to "re-insulate" the wire if needed.
1/8 of an inch isn't much, but it should, however, be enough. You may want to practice soldering similar wires before doing the pickup, as this is one of those things where a bit of practice really helps.
You can obtain similarly thin wires from any old phone cable or computer cable. You can solder them to some other piece of metal or to another wire for practice- a paper clip, for example- but if you have an old switch or pot to use for practice that will be closer to your actual work.
BTW, if you do use a paper clip, attack it with a bit of sandpaper first so the solder will adhere to it.
If the pickup wires aren't pre-tinned, you will need to tin the ends before soldering. Same with your practice wires.
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Post by silencer006 on Apr 1, 2013 7:52:50 GMT -5
Thanks, with your guys's help I'm confident enough to proceed. I havn't soldered in awhile so I am going to practice a bit first. I noticed something on my dpdt pot though. Check this pic out: There's a little piece where I made the arrow that stands up and that causes the pot NOT to fit in the body of the guitar. It's just a little flat, bent up .. well, you see it. I put my original pot next to it for ref. Any of you guys have experience with this? Can it be bent off or down? Will I need to mod the hole some? EDIT: After a bit of research this morn I found out that I (probably, as long as I'm correct) break that piece off with a plier. It's created as a type of anti-spin tech? Just wanna be sure though. Also, when I make the ground connection to the volume pot, can I put the ground anywhere, say on the bottom of the "box" part wit the lugs? Or does it have to be on the pot (the round part) itself?
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Post by ashcatlt on Apr 1, 2013 10:57:35 GMT -5
Yeah, if there's a locator tab in your way just break it off. The picture above is a bit too blurry to tell exactly what's going on.
The "ground" wires can be collected anywhere you find convenient. I hate soldering to the back of a pot, so I usually gather these at some solder lug somewhere. The case of the pots and switches should be connected to that mess also for best practice shielding purposes, but it's not essential to the function of the circuit. It might be a slight bit noisier without, but it'll work fine.
But you asked a specific question... I've never actually used a P/P pot like that, but I have heard from others that you need to be careful about soldering to the case around the switch as too much heat for too long can mess up the insides. This is true of many components, but this kind of switch seems to be especially delicate.
Some of these have an extra solder lug hanging off the side which can make things a bit earlier. If you don't have one of these, my suggestion would be to either find a a ring terminal which fits over the pot shaft/threads, or just solder a wire to the washer on the pot. When you get everything together this will conduct to the pot/switch shaft and accomplish your shield ground.
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Post by newey on Apr 1, 2013 16:51:00 GMT -5
That is indeed a locator tab from what I see.
As ash does, I usually use a ring lug to collect all the grounds, and then hold the ring lug to the side of the cavity with a screw.
P/P pots usually have a little tab for grounding at the base of the switch portion, for grounding the case of the pot/switch. But I find it to be too small for use as a grounding point, as there are too many wires to collect together on such a small lug.
You can use the back of the other pot as the grounding point. It's a good idea to scuff it up a bit so the solder adheres. Then a single wire from the case ground of the P/P to the back of the other pot will accomplish the case grounding. As ash suggests, that's good practice for noise reduction, although perhaps not essential.
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Post by silencer006 on Apr 1, 2013 20:51:55 GMT -5
Thanks (again) both of you guys. I am taking a break. Have been soldering and everything's going pretty good I believe. I've gotten the switch and the p/p knob wired. It was pretty tough for me messing with this little wires for the X but I believe I've got it.
I havn't done any grounding yet. When you guys suggest using a solder lug/ ring lug...what is that specifically?
But as Ash mentioned, it is ok to solder the grounds to the washer that holds the pots too?
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Post by newey on Apr 1, 2013 21:44:25 GMT -5
I'll slide the output jack negative wire through the sleeve and solder it down, then crimp the sleeve. The other ground wires get soldered around the perimeter of the ring. Both my suggestion to use a ring lug into the side of the cavity, and ash's to use the washer underneath one of the pots are ways to ground the cavity shielding, if shielding is being used. These methods will work just as well for grounding if no shielding is being done. Or, if shielding isn't done, the back of a pot can be used. I tend not to use the back of pots for grounding, as it's fairly easy to ruin a pot if excess heat is applied for too long. Many of these pots nowadays just have a plastic track inside, with a resistive coating. It's easy to fry those, so I usually opt to move the grounding elsewhere.
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Post by silencer006 on Apr 2, 2013 12:15:30 GMT -5
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Post by newey on Apr 2, 2013 12:18:09 GMT -5
I can't tell much from the photo as I can't see enough detail. Is it possible that the white wire from the bridge pickup to the neck pot is going to a grounding point on the back of the pot rather than to one of the lugs? That would make some sense.
Your diagram is probably not going to be much help to you. For 2 HBs, 4 pots, and a three-way toggle, any standard LP or SG diagram can be used. As we said earlier, you are adding two modules to the neck pickup. Nothing is being added to the bridge side of the equation, so that just gets wired as per the LP/SG diagram.
Be aware that there are two types of LP wiring "'50s style" and "modern style", the difference being whether the tone controls come before or after the volume controls. Which way you like is a matter of personal preference. JohnH has a thread stickied above discussing the differences between the two types of wiring.
On the neck side, you'll be inserting the two new modules- the mode switch comes first, after the pickup, and the outputs from that go to the phase switch. The hot output from the phase switch goes to the neck Volume (for modern wiring) or to the tone ('for '50s style). After the V and T pots, the output goes to the toggle, then to the jack.
Best is if you draw up a complete diagram of everything at this point, so we can double check it all before you begin wiring.
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Post by silencer006 on Apr 2, 2013 12:31:48 GMT -5
Thanks for hanging in there with me, newey. Regarding the original wiring: No, the white wire (hot) coming from the bridge pickup goes straight to the 3rd lug on the neck's V. pot. It does have a ground wire also, but it is grounded on the bridge's V. Pot. When I wrote my diagram before I took anything apart I thought it was strange and I got things wrong, but no...that's how it was wired. :/ I am gonna draw up a little diagram before I finish soldering everything. Thanks for your patiences, guys!
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Post by silencer006 on Apr 2, 2013 13:16:15 GMT -5
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Post by newey on Apr 2, 2013 16:32:05 GMT -5
Your diagram looks fine except for the question of the orientation of the pots. Normally, diagrams are done showing things from the back, as if we're wiring things from the backside of the pickguard.
Look at the Guitar electronics diagram you're using as a reference. See how they show the pots upside down, like you would see them while wiring? Note how, in that orientation, the ground connection comes off the opposite lug from the way you show it?
Yours is correct, but only if we assume that we're looking at the pots right-side up instead of upside down.
BTW, please do not delete previous postings, as it destroys the continuity of the thread for someone who comes along later. If it's too much of a change for a simple edit, just leave the original post as is and post anew, with an indication that you've moved on from the prior posting.
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Post by silencer006 on Apr 2, 2013 16:36:49 GMT -5
Ah, apologize about deleting that post. I figured since the diagram was obsolete and taking up a lot of space I'd be alright. But I won't from now on. While you wrote your reply I modded my pic but all I did was change the neck and bridge positions correctly. I understand about the pots too. I will once again make another diagram. Your tip about the 50s wiring has me intrigued and it's something I'd want to go for sound wise. Thanks for the link here to JohnH's thread. It was Very informative!
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Post by silencer006 on Apr 3, 2013 8:58:49 GMT -5
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