Action and buzzing

[silencer006]

Hey guys,

One of my guitars is a cheap Epiphone Dot studio (probably the lowest of the low I believe?). Love the shape and F-hole's even though it never played that great. I got it basically free so I never really had any worries about messing with it ("fixing it" up).

It was used obviously and the action wasn't that great. Decent, but not great. When I got it it didn't have any fret buzz, or if it did it was very minor.
I've adjusted the action before on other guitars, and set up necks to my liking. Not super professional, but enough to where I can say I'm pleased with it.

But with this baby things have gone in the other direction.
First I straightened the neck out just a little (less than quarter turn on the truss rod) and lowered the saddle and almost immediately it started buzzing. I backed up on the truss rod slightly, to just about where it originally was but left the saddle alone - still buzz.

To make a long story short let's just say that I've adjusted the truss rod in miniscule increments with the saddle raised high and I still get buzz, from the 1st fret to 13th on all but the B and E string. And that's both loosening and tightening the truss rod. It seems that the only place I can find a place where it doesn't buzz as bad is when I've loosed the truss rod so much that it's really, really loose. It feels weird knowing that I'm playing the guitar with it that loose.

I don't think I've broke the truss rod, never heard a snap and I was super careful, never tightening it to where it was really tight. It still tightens and loosens. It stays in tune too.

I'm thinking about taking it to a tech but I wonder if there's anything I could do or check first that I haven't thought of. I've watched many vids and read up on adjusting action but this don't seem to get it. I wondered if there's some fretwork that needs done but then again, it didn't buzz this bad when I first got it.

With some cheap guitars, is it a fact that some just can't get the action set low(ish) without buzz regardless of the tweaking you do?
Thanks for listening, just had to vent. : )

[cynical1]

When it does buzz, where does it buzz? IE: What strings and what spot on the neck?

The Dots I've seen have all been set necks, so a shim is out. If you drop a steel rule on the fingerboard, is there a bow when the truss rod is all the way out?

HTC1

[silencer006]

Yep, the guitar's a set neck.

The truss rod is pretty loose, and it does have a little bow in the neck. It's not loose where it's flopping around, but there's no torque needed where it's at now. When it's like this I can play it good from the 1st fret to the 8-10th with little or no buzz on all the strings. I wouldn't mind keeping it like this if I knew it'd be ok on the guitar for the truss rod to be so loose, but there's another problem with this. The action is too high for my liking after the 12th fret. If I try and lower it, it buzzes.

But if I tighten the rod slightly it starts to buzz from fret 1 all the way down to the 13th on the E A D and G strings. The fatter strings are worse though, it seems.

[Deleted]

I would not be so cool with the truss rod loosened all the way. Give it some turn to at lest know it someway operates in supporting your neck.
That said, you gotta make measurements, low might be high for some one else and vice versa. First measure your current neck relief. Put a capo on your 1st fret, then with your left hand put a finger to e.g. E-low where the neck joints the body (in your LP, this should be around 17th-18th fret, right?) and with the use of a filler gauge measure the action height between the said string and the 8th fret. This is your neck relief. Normal low-action-setting values are 0.15mm->0.30mm (i believe 0.30mm is the by the book setting for Gibson LP, and 0.25mm for fender stratocaster).
Next, measure the action height in the 12th, and 24th frets, for high-E. low-action-setting values should be somewhere less than 1.2mm and 1.6mm respectively.

All these apply to "healthy" guitars. It is common for pathological situations to result into very annoying buzz, even if set up correctly. Damaged or malfunctioning bridges and tailpieces might be the cause. In my strats, high pickup height has also been the cause of excessive "sensed" buzzing.

Now, lets categorize here buzzing into "sensed" by the pups/amp and not-sensed. not-sensed exist in almost most stringed fretted instruments, no worries there. It is the sensed one we dont want. So keep that in mind as well. Does your amp sense it?

Also, in most occasions, ears do not lie. Yes, they might get you obsessed about it, and ultra sensitive about this buzz problem, but they are right, there is a problem and you must solve it.

Look here, my LP buzzing experience : (btw LPs buzz more than strats, simply because starts get away by the individual string saddle height adjustment) :

guitarnuts2.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=repair&action=display&thread=6548&page=1

problem was the tailpiece. It was loosened from its bushings, and created this whole situation. I returned the guitar finally and got one with a correct working tailpiece.

[cynical1]

Well, if you're buzzing from the octave to the heel this normally indicates you need more relief...but you mention that this gives you unacceptably high action. The heavier strings will buzz more as your DOT is only a 24.75" scale, which develops less tension than a Fender 25.5" scale at standard tuning. Heavy strings, say .013-.056, generally require slightly higher action than lighter strings. Ever wonder why shredders play such light gauges?

Greek has the routine down for checking relief. For your guitar, the capo on the first fret and then fretting at the 19th fret would give you an accurate read on how much relief you have on this neck. For reference, in our metrically challenged country, the feeler gauge you need is .010" to measure the relief at the 8th fret. You can go as high as .012" on a set neck as still have a playable action for most people.

I assume you have lowered the saddles as far as they can go, right?

If it were me, I'd like a few accurate benchmarks before I decide to chuck it in the wood stove. I'm going to ask you for three measurements. All measurements are taken from the top of the fretwire. You will need a set of feeler gauges for these, so if you don't have a decent set take 8 bucks to your local auto parts store and score one.

1.) Once you get the guitar playable with no buzz, regardless of action, take the accurate measurement of the neck relief you have at that point, as described by Greek. Write it down.

2.) Without changing anything on this setup, remove the capo, fret nothing and measure the gap of each string at the first fret. Write these down.

3.) From the 12th, with the capo still off the guitar and fretting nothing, repeat the same measurements on each string again. Write these down, too.

After you have all of this information, please post it here.

On a bolt-on neck you can always cheat and shim the neck. Set necks, obviously, do not allow this. I'm asking for the measurements to determine if the problem lies in the nut, neck relief or bridge. On a guitar like this you really need to take a cold hard look, as sometimes the repair costs may well exceed the actual value of the guitar.

And, depending on the gauge string you use, having the truss rod completely loose may not be an issue. It's not the best practice, but for years guitars never had truss rods at all.

One thing to remember when adjusting a truss rod is that you need to allow a few days to accurately determine if your adjustment was correct. The neck will take 2-4 days to fully respond to your truss rod adjustment. This is not a point and click operation. Ever notice most good techs will tell you to come back in a few days so they can recheck their adjustment?

Ain't this fun?

Happy Trails

Cynical One

[Deleted]

Cyn1 summed it up pretty well. Also spotted the nut action which i forgot to mention. Excessively high nut action might condemn a guitar to eternal lack of playability.

There is something, worrying me tho, since Silencer mentioned that the guitar used to play buzz free, and then suddenly after a setup it started buzzing.
<thinking_loud>
Can we eliminate the possibility than the whole neck went crazy and developed a rather unusual shape? Is this possible to happen? Maybe change in temperature humidity played some role? I know my Carvin (all american) reacts like crazy to temperatures. Other asian ones i have are less eager to react.
</thinking_loud>

[cynical1]

Guitar necks can require a seasonal adjustment. Age, neck wood, profile configuration, string gauge\tension, etc...can all be factors. Just changing string gauge can require a truss rod adjustment. For now I'd just like to know where the neck is at before I toss out opinions\conjecture.

HTC1

[silencer006]

Thanks for the replies guys! I ended up really busy this week but gonna tackle your suggestions this weekend. Gonna have to buy a new feeler gauge too...mine went missing.

[cynical1]

May 1, 2013 15:15:43 GMT -5 silencer006 said:

...Gonna have to buy a new feeler gauge too...mine went missing.

That kept happening to me when I was married. After finally recovering all of my tools and putting them back in one place I now have 4 sets of feeler gauges...and more files and screwdrivers than I know what to do with...

Keep us posted.

HTC1

[silencer006]

Hey guys, thanks for your replies and your patience thus far. I appreciate the help, really!

Apr 29, 2013 9:05:49 GMT -5 cynical1 said:

1.) Once you get the guitar playable with no buzz, regardless of action, take the accurate measurement of the neck relief you have at that point, as described by Greek. Write it down.

I had to loosen the truss rod some. It's loose but not wobbly, the action I raised too. My measurement was .009, maybe .010

2.) Without changing anything on this setup, remove the capo, fret nothing and measure the gap of each string at the first fret. Write these down.

E: .028
A: .028
D: .028
G: .028
B: .026
E: .026

3.) From the 12th, with the capo still off the guitar and fretting nothing, repeat the same measurements on each string again. Write these down, too.

lol ... it was so tall I didn't have a gauge for it on my new one. So +.032. I'm guessing the next one would've hit it. .034 (?)

It sucks.

I'm using Ernie Ball Skinny Top heavy bottom strings (10-52s).

Ain't this fun?

Yeah, it's not too bad. I'm enjoying the learning experience. : )

[cynical1]

May 4, 2013 19:01:07 GMT -5 silencer006 said:

Hey guys, thanks for your replies and your patience thus far. I appreciate the help, really!

No problem...besides, we haven't helped you yet...

Apr 29, 2013 9:05:49 GMT -5 cynical1 said:

1.) Once you get the guitar playable with no buzz, regardless of action, take the accurate measurement of the neck relief you have at that point, as described by Greek. Write it down.

I had to loosen the truss rod some. It's loose but not wobbly, the action I raised too. My measurement was .009, maybe .010

OK, that's good. You can be .010 to .012 before you start to sacrifice action to lose the buzz. This measurement is fine. From this point forward don't do any more with the truss rod.

May 4, 2013 19:01:07 GMT -5 silencer006 said:

Apr 29, 2013 9:05:49 GMT -5 cynical1 said:

2.) Without changing anything on this setup, remove the capo, fret nothing and measure the gap of each string at the first fret. Write these down.

E: .028
A: .028
D: .028
G: .028
B: .026
E: .026

OK, that's a bit high. Not outrageous, but the nut could be cut lower. For reference, I cut my nuts like this on my guitars, but remember, it fits my touch...which is still a bit heavy, but not necessarily yours:

11-48 Set:

E: .022
A: .020
D: .018
G: .016
B: .014
E: .012

13-56 Set:

E: .023
A: .021
D: .019
G: .017
B: .015
E: .013

With a lighter touch you can knock this down even lower. Standard preferences run from .020-.010, but for me that's too low. YMMV

May 4, 2013 19:01:07 GMT -5 silencer006 said:

Apr 29, 2013 9:05:49 GMT -5 cynical1 said:

3.) From the 12th, with the capo still off the guitar and fretting nothing, repeat the same measurements on each string again. Write these down, too.

lol ... it was so tall I didn't have a gauge for it on my new one. So +.032. I'm guessing the next one would've hit it. .034 (?)

It sucks.

I'm using Ernie Ball Skinny Top heavy bottom strings (10-52s).

Well, you're going to have to stack the feeler gauges to read this one. Again, here's where I have mine set, based on the same touch and disclaimer:

11-48 Set:

E: .078
A: .075
D: .072
G: .069
B: .066
E: .063

13-56 Set

E: .079
A: .076
D: .073
G: .070
B: .067
E: .064

This is really easier to pull off on a Strat type bridge. The Tune-O-Matic really only gets you close on the two E's. For some reason Gibson made a boatload of guitars with a 10" neck radius and a 12" bridge radius. Not sure if you suffer from that or not.

What it really comes down to is you have to do some trial and error. I use the specs above as a benchmark for jumping off. Some players with a very light touch can go considerably lower. If you're a rhythm player with a heavy touch you're going to need to raise the action accordingly.

There is no one "standard" Holy Grail setup. It varies by player and guitar.

For example, when I started player bass, back when Harrison was in office, I had a very heavy touch, so my action was very high. As I progressed and consciously worked on nuance and touch I found I could lower my action significantly, thereby also improving my speed. Granted, this took decades...

May 4, 2013 19:01:07 GMT -5 silencer006 said:

Ain't this fun?

Yeah, it's not too bad. I'm enjoying the learning experience. : )

You never stop learning. I would hazard a guess that if you were to take the same measurements on all of your guitars you'd find that they were all over the place. If there is one guitar you find your go-to instrument, focus in on that and see how it spec out. Note the scale, string gauges and fretwire size. Most guitars we consider unplayable really are just not ergonomically setup for us, so we write it off as a bad instrument versus just not the right instrument or setup for our style.

So, what do you want to try next?

Happy Trails

Cynical One

[silencer006]

May 4, 2013 21:36:17 GMT -5 cynical1 said:

Well, you're going to have to stack the feeler gauges to read this one. Again, here's where I have mine set, based on the same touch and disclaimer:

11-48 Set:

E: .078
A: .075
D: .072
G: .069
B: .066
E: .063

13-56 Set

E: .079
A: .076
D: .073
G: .070
B: .067
E: .064

Am I understanding/reading this wrong? That sound high (?). Mine would be .040, I did find the gauge and measured it after I posted last night.

You never stop learning. I would hazard a guess that if you were to take the same measurements on all of your guitars you'd find that they were all over the place. If there is one guitar you find your go-to instrument, focus in on that and see how it spec out. Note the scale, string gauges and fretwire size. Most guitars we consider unplayable really are just not ergonomically setup for us, so we write it off as a bad instrument versus just not the right instrument or setup for our style.

I agree. That's one reason I want to give this little cheap Dot a chance with a good setup. I've really come to love the feel of a 335 (never had one like it before). If things can work out play wise I'm interested in looking for other upgrades to it, if it'll be worth it. And, for me, different guitars with different feels (granted that they all play good) are what makes it so fun. Certain days you just wanna beat on something, y'know? : )

So, what do you want to try next?

Hm. I'm not happy with the action overall, especially from the 6-8 up till the 24th. At the 7th fret my measurement is .039. I think I can live with the action being a tad high at the 1st frets (it feels "ok" right now), but I am not afraid to do any necessary adjustments to the nut if that would be helpful in getting things worked out. Granted, I've never done it before but I'm willing to learn etc. You mentioned the nut was a bit high, and I am inclined to agree. I consider myself a pretty average guitarist and would probably be more than happy with a "standard" setup in this case.

Btw, I have lowered the action some and it feels as if the buzz is starting to come on.

Like I mentioned in my first post I have done minor adjustments to my other guitar's necks, truss rod, but it worked out right away without much trouble I never really had to go in-depth of the technical aspects. So, I appreciate the info!

[Deleted]

I agree with cyn1, nut is a little bit too high. Maybe a nice refret or fret dressing, which implies a trip to the tech, should make this play as a charm.

What happened with my aria strat. I had really written off that axe. After the refret, it is my no1 goto axe. Its action is rather high : 0.4mm relief (0.015"), and about 2mm acttion at 12th fret (with no capo), (5/64"). The strange thing here is that even this guitar has obviously non shred-ready action, it shreds better than my ibanez arz800 setup lower, with 12" radious, and active EMGs, go figure

Also, it can be useful to measure the string action both in 12th fret and in 24th fret (or whatever is the last one). This is because the neck might not have a stable behavior across all frets. If we are sure our neck is completely straight (zero relief), then just measuring at the last fret is enough to express the string height. Now, if we observe anomalies between 12->24th fret height for guitars with similar nut height, relief, 12th or 24th height, then there is something fishy in one of the guitars.

[silencer006]

Hm, I can't seem to get it down any further without buzz somewhere. In your experience/opinion, what would be the next step for me to try? Filing the nut or replacing it? I realize it might be a case of 'everyone's different' or 'have to see the guitar to decide' but let's just play with the idea. I'm kinda leery of taking it to a tech around here.
Thanks guys.

[cynical1]

I understand your trepidation taking it to a tech, especially if the only tech you have are the ones at Guitar Center... But I have to ask you, how comfortable are you working on a guitar?

Have you done anything with the nut? If not, you might want to take the measurements on one of your guitars that "just feels right" and do a comparison. Filing a nut is not the mystical voodoo thing alot of people take it for, it's really just a study in patience and working methodically. You can invest in nut files, or the DIY feeler gauge nut file thing works pretty well. I've done the last two nuts that way and am impressed with how well it works.

Another thing to do is check the frets. Taking a 6" metal rule and just walking it down the neck will help you find high frets. A regular charge\debit card will work too. You're just walking it down the neck, narrow side down against the frets, and seeing if it rocks anywhere. This usually indicates high or improperly seated frets.

Leveling and recrowning frets is not an impossible job, just time consuming. A few special tools are in order, but nothing to break the bank.

Not to throw the usual ducking disclaimer out there, but without actually seeing the guitar it's a crap shoot on determining exactly what the problem is. We can throw simple Q & A things out to you, but this can just as easily take you down the wrong path as it can in assisting you in fixing the problem.

Tell us your comfort level and we'll go from there.

Happy Trails

Cynical One

[Deleted]

+, it would be a good idea to try and find the 1st string/fret combination that you don't like. Concentrate on a specific problem. Try to find exactly what conditions cause this. Try to determine all involved factors and try to incrementally change those factors in very small steps, and try to reassess.
Think of the guitar as a computer program structure, which has a state. A state is the full set of all its parameters with their current values. Try to determine :
a) how do we get from state A -> state B
b) what effect does this change have on the sound of the guitar in the problematic strings/frets

in short try to develop a method for addressing those kind of problems, if if you don't know anything about the solution from the start.

Also, it would be absolutely beneficial, if you read Dan Erlewine's two books on guitars.
www.amazon.com/Make-Electric-Guitar-Great-ebook/dp/B00268EVEA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1368338593&sr=8-1&keywords=dan+erlewine
www.amazon.com/Guitar-Player-Repair-Guide-ebook/dp/B002BLZ6GE/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1368338625&sr=8-3&keywords=dan+erlewine

[halfstack]

I had a Kramer that did the exact same thing.I could loosen the truss rod and get only very slight relief in the neck.Played it like that for a long time.