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Post by ux4484 on May 29, 2013 9:08:24 GMT -5
If I'm gonna keep it, it desperately needs a Intonate-able bridge. I know what's out there for wrap-around replacements, but I'd like to know anyone's first hand experience with them.
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Post by b4nj0 on May 29, 2013 11:57:11 GMT -5
I have the Tonepros intonatable wrap-around design on an English "Gordon Smith" double-cut slab hog type. I can only report that I am very satisfied with it. There is supposed to be some issue with the Tonepros design regarding how the ball end of the string is allowed to seat in at least some of the six positions, but I haven't experienced any problems thus far. As you are already aware, there are alternatives available.
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Post by ux4484 on May 29, 2013 16:33:12 GMT -5
Wow b4nj0, that bridge cost more than the guitar and case! I do like it's lower profile compared to (and complained of) the other options, but I can't justify that price. I did just get a set of files, and I'm going to see if I can get a less than sitar-ish sound out of the G and B strings played open by adjusting the nut a tad. The Stock bridge has a lot of play when raised, but action is fine with it fully seated. The stock Epi lightning bolt has several wear lines in it for each string which is adding to the problem, so those are going to be made decisive with the files. The neck is very nice, I've already replaced the tuners with some old pings I had laying around. What made me buy it was someone had installed a SD pearly Gates in it, which made it worth double the price of admission. If I can get the stock nut and bridge decent I could justify a better bridge, but more likely in the $40-50 range. Stewmac does have a copy of your tonepro in my price range www.stewmac.com/shop/Bridges,_tailpieces/Electric_guitar,_non-trem_bridges/Adjustable_Wraparound_Bridge.html?actn=100101&xst=3&xsr=8101, though it looks a tad higher than yours.
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Post by b4nj0 on May 29, 2013 17:10:04 GMT -5
Yup, they are expensive. OTOH, on the Gordon Smith the cost is justified (in the UK they are known as the British Gibson and with good reason) I saw the Stewmac one that you linked to. There is a company in the UK called AXESRUS that does the same thing (or very similar) for about 25 bucks, but the despatch is only free within the UK. Hope you get sorted.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2013 2:17:23 GMT -5
If I'm gonna keep it, it desperately needs a Intonate-able bridge. I know what's out there for wrap-around replacements, but I'd like to know anyone's first hand experience with them. you might have a look at Ibanez's tight-tune bridge and tailpiece. I have it on my Ibanez LP copy. Very nice. Don't know whats the state with availability, tho... However this guitar is my only connection with LP-type guitars, since i am more into the Strat camp. Here it is : www.drumsetc.com/content/ibanez-tight-tune-guitar-bridge-2tux5a0002
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Post by ux4484 on May 31, 2013 15:49:13 GMT -5
Well today, the decision was made for me. I was in one of my Local Music shops (A Sound Education), and asked if they had any. No new ones, but they started checking their spare parts bins and found this: lh4.googleusercontent.com/-HDrWQ_ybcxQ/UakJ7f9RX-I/AAAAAAAAAJ8/7rT-Sx_zWWQ/h120/bridge.JPG It appears to be VERY similar to the StewMac $37 model. It's chromed Brass. It needed one tang straightened a bit, some deburring, cleaning, polishing, lubricating, and rear screws (I used the screws from the old bridge). How can I complain? the price was right (free). it's almost ready to go now, I'm just waiting for the glue under new bone nut to set up (it's clamped right now).
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Post by b4nj0 on May 31, 2013 18:40:27 GMT -5
Can't beat a freebie! Even better when the pitch of the posts matches. I had to plug and re-bore for the Tonepros. The original wound third string fixed intonation effort had to go at any price...
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Post by ux4484 on Jun 1, 2013 1:03:21 GMT -5
He also has a used schaller 455, which is about 1/8 of an inch off spacing. I was happy to not have to fill/drill... But I will still have to drill a bit, as my existing inserts need to be flush due to the added height of the bridge. One of the rear screw holes is stripped, and I'll need longer screws as well, so I'll drill/tap to the next size up. The GOOD NEWS is, it's thisclose to being perfect. I need about another 1/8 inch on two saddles to have it perfect. The new nut got rid of the sitar twang (slots on the g/b strings were WAY too deep). It's not even done, but was just a pleasure to play by comparison). Total cash outlay: $97 (90 for the guitar, 7 for the bone nut. At this point my time into it is a bigger investment. The amount of sustain on this cheapy is amazing.
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Post by b4nj0 on Jun 1, 2013 3:15:14 GMT -5
Not sure whether you have the facility, but Armstrong HeliCoils are the best way to repair the damaged threads. These are tiny threads though, and therefore an interesting proposition to lash up an insertion tool of your own device...
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Post by ux4484 on Jun 1, 2013 4:04:23 GMT -5
I've used them at my jobs for decades. Helicoils are mainly for holes/threads that have a bottom (hence the tang), these are the rear screws for the gross intonation adjustment and have to pass through the block to stand it off the posts. I could use the tang-less ones, but screws, drills and taps I already have. Helicoils+insertion tool I'd have to buy (my current job has no need of them ) that kills my free bridge win.
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Post by ux4484 on Jun 5, 2013 16:35:48 GMT -5
The deed is done. The Badass clone bridge has been drilled, tapped, and new rear (gross intonation) screws installed. While it was apart, I took out the Pearly Gates (I think the '51 is going to get it) and installed the original 'bucker from the '51 (Not as wonderfully growly as the PG, but it has some high end sparkle with the tone all the way up now and the gain down on the amp) wired for full humbucking (no switch for the split). Intonation set, nut replaced with bone. I was going to countersink the bridge stud inserts, but decided to tap them down just a little past flush (right when the poly started to show surface tension). Action is a tad higher than with the stock bridge, but chords ring out clear and in tune up and down the neck. Play-ability is pretty good considering I'm used to 25.5' scale lengths on my other guitars. It's not as playable as my other guitars (not far off from the Epi LP+top I used to have), but even with a bolt on neck, has much more sustain (unamplified) than anything except my bass.
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Post by ux4484 on Jun 12, 2013 15:39:29 GMT -5
And today... it's gone! Sold it for $60. A young man (I was this kids confirmation sponsor, it feels so weird calling him a young man) came and saw it... he's a big time Green Day fan, and amazingly with the Squier humbucker in it... The LP Jr nails that sound. He offered me $100, but since I kept the SD pearly gates, I let it go cheap. He lives a block down from us. I can hear him playing it now. It does sound good! I may have a special use for the pearly gates in a new project...
Meanwhile... I'm still thinkin'
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Post by newey on Jun 30, 2013 10:15:30 GMT -5
ux is out, but I'm in. Just got this yesterday, traded my Orange Micro Terror plus a $20 bill for it. It was used, had a couple of little marks on the back, but the plastic film was still on the pickguard and rear cover. My first impressions are good, I like this guitar a lot. The short scale neck is a nice change from the Strat scales I'm used to playing, and ux is right, it's got some sustain for such a light body. My objection to LPs in general is the weight, this has the feel of an LP without the mass. And the intonation seems OK as is, but I've got to put some heavier gauge strings on it which will change things. So, an intonatable bridge is in my future as well. Question is, are there any direct replacements? I don't have the tools for a drilling and filling operation, nor do I want to spend a lot of time on a $120 guitar. Does anyone know if the Stew-Mac replacement requires relocating the posts? Just in general, dimensionally, are these Asian Epi Jrs the same as the original Gibson Jrs? (i.e., nut width, string spread, etc.) Also contemplating a pickup change. I'm mostly a single-coil guy, I like a clean tone, I don't like a "growl-ey" HB sound. Any suggestions? My first inclination was to try one of the GFS "Retrotrons", they have one they advertise as having a Rick-like "jangle". But, any other suggestions? As long as I'm changing things around, I can't figure out the cream pickup ring with the black HB. The rest of the hardware is chrome, so I'm thinking chrome ring (I think there's one in the parts box somewhere . . .) Or black, if the new pickup is to be black.
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Post by lpf3 on Jun 30, 2013 11:31:48 GMT -5
Great score, newey. I really like those guitars too, even if they forgot to install one of the pickups. I find the shorter scale a lot easier to play & I like the feel better, too. I don't know which bridge you're looking at but one of the reviewers of this bridge says it's perfect for his Epi. Looks like the overall saddle height is 11/16" so you might want to double check if that'll work for you. While you're lookin at GFS pups, check out the Dream or the Mean 90. I had a Dream 90 in my Squier 51 & really liked it. Edit: couldn't seem to get the link to work. Should be OK now
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Post by newey on Jun 30, 2013 13:30:26 GMT -5
lpf3-
Good to hear from you!
I've got a Dream 90 on my Hofner Travel guitar, and I like the sound very much. But I was hoping to try something different with this guitar.
My objection to the HB in the travel guitar is the same as with this one (they could both be the same Asian-made HBs for all I know, I assume they're ceramic magnets. They look the same, anyway). So, I kind of know what the Dream 90 will do in there.
And, given that there's only one pickup, I'm thinking I want it to be a 4-wire of some sort, so I can do series/parallel on a P/P so as to have some tonal variation. I have that arrangement on my single-hum Strat clone (with the GFS lipstick-tube HB)and like it, it's simple but useful.
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Post by ux4484 on Jun 30, 2013 14:21:45 GMT -5
I didn't realize from the micro-terror post that you traded it for the epi. Cool. That bridge that lpf3 is a repro of the used badass I put on and is a drop in replacement. Only problem is, it's thicker than the stock bridge and even bottomed out will be at LEAST 1/4-3/8 higher than the stock lightning bridge, only option, angle-shim the neck to compensate. with the larger mass of the bridge, shimming the neck does not really affect sustain much that I could notice, but YMMV. There are a couple low profile models, but they are all in the "worth half what the guitar costs" range. On the nut, the gibby nuts are an acceptable width, but are 3/16" high, the Epi's are 1/4". They are available online everywhere from MF, to AllParts. AllParts has a tusq as well. My fav Local shop (that gave me the used badass bridge) A Sound Education had the bone AllParts in stock, which worked perfectly, you could go bone to match the pup ring. If you keep it, you're going to want new machines as well, though the nut may solve enough of that to live with them (I changed the machines before the nut). The Pearly Gates was amazing in it after I got it done, but I couldn't justify keeping it in it (especially glad I swapped it as now it's going in the Dot). The PG did look better than the black '51 pup with the cream trim ring. The '51's pup is good in it, not quite as sensitive to the sustain as the PG, but more mid'd/high than the stock Epi pup, it seemed "right" for the guitar. Jacob (the buyer) says he can't stop playing it. The great thing about it now, is that it's indestructible. Between the bridge, machines and nut replacement (and neck shim), you can play it forever and it's super stable. Just a heads up: If it's less than 3 years old, that lightning bridge is re-designed for .009's, which was part of my problem trying to intonate it (using my standard .010's with a wound G). The StewMac badass clone has so much adjustment on it, you can put just about anything on it and get it good.
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Post by newey on Jun 30, 2013 14:42:16 GMT -5
Well, if it's a drop-in replacement, I'll definitely pull the trigger on the Stew-Mac bridge. And, I'll look at tuners as well.
I definitely want it set up for 11s, but not with a wound G.
My "nutzy" temptation at present is to put a P/P on the volume pot for series/parallel with whatever HB I end up with, and replace the tone control with a Gibson-style Varitone.
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Post by ux4484 on Jun 30, 2013 14:49:45 GMT -5
It's funny, the stock face inserts on those machines are plastic. I did re-use them on the pico's I installed, as I didn't have 6 metal ones laying around that matched.
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Post by JohnH on Jun 30, 2013 15:29:04 GMT -5
Thats going to be a fun project newey. I know you like singles, but theres nothing quite so good IMO as a PAF-style bridge humbucker in an LP. I'd offer a suggestion of trying the tone pot for Hb/single transitions, with a cap instead of full bypas, as I have in my LP - its really a very nice single rythym sound and its a good test since you can do it with a standard 500k tone pot. It has more edge than a parallel wiring and more weight than a simple split Hb.
Coming to pots etc, maybe it has some fairly cheapo small pots on it and it might feel better with full size ones?
The other thing I think about Juniors is that the pickguard is already laid out to cover the area of the lost neck pickup - all ready to cover up whatever woodwork sins may be committed, when installing something like a Strat neck single. How about that? it's calling to you "rout me!". An LP with bridge Hb and neck single - perfect!
John
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Post by ux4484 on Jun 30, 2013 16:10:32 GMT -5
The other thing I think about Juniors is that the pickguard is already laid out to cover the area of the lost neck pickup - all ready to cover up whatever woodwork sins may be committed, when installing something like a Strat neck single. How about that? it's calling to you "rout me!". An LP with bridge Hb and neck single - perfect! John Heh... Just like he saw Kenny Chesney with! On that PAF thing... I'll shortly have an Epi Bridge PAF style available newey.
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Post by JohnH on Jun 30, 2013 17:10:04 GMT -5
Just on the subject of bridges, intonation and heavier strings, here's something based on a bif of structural dynamics theory from my day job. Its a diversion, but may be relevant when there is a non adjustable bridge
I think, at least in theory, that if the intonation is ok as is with the fixed intonation bridge, then it should also be ok scaling up the string size to 11's, provided you can set the bridge height and neck relief to maintain the same action height.
The reason is that, at least for plain steel strings, the string frequency depends on three things: length, mass and tension. Working through the maths, it can be reduced to two things, length and stress given its made of steel. Stress is tension/ cross-section area. So a string twice the area needs twice the tension to reach a given note.
Intonation adjusts for extra stretching of the string (strain) when its depressed, due to it being forced to become slightly longer. This raises its stress in direct proportion. For a given action height, note and length, its the same % increase for any string size. This relates directly to the number of cents of a semitone by which the string goes sharp, and which is compensated for.
And its the same actual increase in stress independent of note. This is why b and g strings, which work at a lower stress than the top e string, have the same stress increase when fretted, which is a larger % change compared to e, and so need more compensation.
At the change from plain to wound strings, theres a step change since mass/ stiffness is different, but the same theory would apply if core and windings are in the same proportion.
So out of all that, if you can maintain the action, and keep 3 plain 3 wound, intonation should be much the same.
Cheers and thanks for reading John
But if heavier strings meant the action got higher, then intonation would be off.
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Post by newey on Jun 30, 2013 20:07:09 GMT -5
I don't foresee a neck pickup, at least not anytime soon. Heck, I've still got two ongoing projects I can't seem to find time to finish. John, I think you're pretty much right about the string mass vs. tension as far as intonation goes. I've had quite a few fixed-bridge guitars over the years, and that comports with my experience. ux, thanks for the offer of the PAF but I've already got a set of Epi PAFs out of an LP sitting in the parts box. In fact, the parts box is overflowing with HBs. I've replaced a few HBs over the years. As I said, I'm not really a fan, but maybe I just haven't found The One yet . . .
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Post by ux4484 on Jul 1, 2013 12:42:33 GMT -5
But if heavier strings meant the action got higher, then intonation would be off. The StewMac bridge bottomed out against the body will be considerably higher than the stock lightning, which is why when I put it on, I had to shim the neck to get the action low again (lower than it was when I had set the lightning bridge with .010's to as low as it could without buzzing) As you can see from the pics, mine's considerably back compared to newey's stock lightning. Oddly, it was the D string that gave me so much trouble with the lightning bridge, also the lightning bridge was loose on the posts, so when strung it had a noticeable forward tilt to it, which wasn't helping anything.
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Post by newey on Jul 1, 2013 14:58:48 GMT -5
I pulled the trigger on the Stew-Mac bridge (and also a long-shaft P/P pot.) Still considering the pickup situation, but I'll probably order one of the GFS Retrotrons. I've got a lot of guitars with GFS pickups and I like them a lot for the money. And, as ux said, not much point in putting a $70 SD or DM into a $130 guitar.
I spent about an hour and a half last evening playing this axe, tried it with/without pedals, through the Fender and through the Peavey. Other than a little HB harshness when driven, it plays well and sounds good.
A guy in my college dorm had a Gibson LPJ, the old one with the dogear P90. That was the last time I played one of these, and that was well over 35 years ago. I liked that one back then, and I like this one now. For a cheap guitar, the neck and frets were very good, no problems there at all. With a better pickup and bridge, I'm thinking this thing will become one of my regular players . . .
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Post by newey on Jul 12, 2013 21:59:59 GMT -5
Well, a brief update. Still playing this a lot, and haven't installed the new bridge yet. But, just by eyeballing it, I don't think the height will be an issue, as ux indicated it would be. We'll see, hard to tell for sure without putting it on there.
Meanwhile, I pulled the trigger on a GFS "Memphis" Retrotron (a filtertron replica, $35 from Guitarfetish) for Mr. Junior. Also a set of GFS vintage-style tuners (with the MOP buttons).
ux, do you happen to recall what size tuners the Jr. took? Browsing the LP and Gibson forums, people mentioned having to ream these out for Schallers, Gotohs and others with 10mm standard sizes holes. I bought the vintage-style 9mm ones, but someone in one of the forums mentioned that the stock Epi ones were 8mm? I was hoping, again, for something that was a drop-in replacement, otherwise I'll need to get a reamer.
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Post by ux4484 on Jul 13, 2013 0:34:54 GMT -5
I was lucky, I was prepared to drill or ream, but I didn't have to as the 30+ year old pico's I had were just the right size (8mm I think, but not sure) to fit loosely in the stock hole, but the Epi stock top inserts (long) mated perfectly with them (plastic, with integrated nuts, snug fit)), the tuners were originally bought for a Hondo II LP. They did require me to drill some new holes for the rear headstock screws. I filled the old holes with toothpicks, glue, and crayon/sharpie to match the headstock. Turned out pretty tidy. . I think the 9's should fit snug. *edit* Don't drink and post ux... Corrections made.
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Post by ux4484 on Jul 13, 2013 9:57:54 GMT -5
I just dug out the tuners from the shop garbage can. The shafts are a smidge thicker than 5mm, but the plastic inserts were long, covering almost the entire shaft... and I don't have any of those to measure as I reused them, but 8 or 9mm would be my guess.
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Post by ux4484 on Jul 13, 2013 10:21:46 GMT -5
Update: I found the pico inserts, they are 9mm with 6mm post holes. I didn't even bother trying them as the stock Epi ones fit so well (and supported the shaft throughout the headstock, which the pico ones would not have). Hope that helps.
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Post by newey on Jul 13, 2013 12:41:43 GMT -5
It does help, the new ones are 9mm so sounds like that should be OK. +1 for digging through the trash! (Of course, now it's just a mental +1) JohnH has been advocating using the tone pot to split the coils of HBs for some time now, so I've decided to try that on the LPJ. I came up with this module for the tone control, using a P/P pot for series/parallel and using the tone pot for the coil split(The coil split only operates in the series position). So, I'm going to be implementing this:
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Post by ux4484 on Jul 13, 2013 14:10:50 GMT -5
S/P isn't enough...You just GOTTA have a single coil option, don't ya? I'm going to split the pearly gates when I put it in the Dot, but I'm thinking of putting in an under pickguard switch (I already did one pull the pots out/in of a hollowbody in the last year (it wasn't too bad as it was a REAL hollowbody), and with the Dot's center block, I don't relish dragging a full size push/pull through the cavities via strings. I may do a connector as well, so if I ever want to put it back stock, I could do it quick.
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