Using a key center for improvisation!

[greeneyezzz]

Hey!

I recently had an improvisation exam and my teacher told me I had to "think more of key centers when improvising".
Now I wonder, what does this mean to you? What do you think of when you want to get (for example) the Dorian flavor?
I know you would think of Dorian as a II so the key center will be a tone down, that's the easy part, but what would you use from that whole "think of keycenter concept"
to get that dorian sound?

let's say Dorian vamp on Dm7 to keep things easy

thoughts?

Sven

[ashcatlt]

This is kind of a slow section of the forum. Don't despair too much. If nothing else, I'm sure 4real will be by in a while to drop a book or two on you.

I can't help much. I generally just play the notes that sound/feel right. Try to keep it in key if there is one. When in doubt, listen to the voice leading things happening in the chords. If you hit a wrong note hit it at least two more times.

It does kind of beg the question why you don't ask this instructor what he means. Isn't that why he gets paid the big bucks?

[4real]

Thank's ash...half asleep here. But one wonders what one kind of music or genre are we talking here...are we talking 'jazz?

I recently had an improvisation exam and my teacher told me I had to "think more of key centers when improvising".
Now I wonder, what does this mean to you? What do you think of when you want to get (for example) the Dorian flavor?
I know you would think of Dorian as a II so the key center will be a tone down, that's the easy part, but what would you use from that whole "think of keycenter concept"
to get that dorian sound?

let's say Dorian vamp on Dm7 to keep things easy

thoughts?

Sven

Hi Sven, pete here.

So, say we are talking a more jazz approach, there are different ways to do this. Often 'jazz' say well fly through different 'key centres', espeically something like bebop but even standards, things that run through series of ii-V-I's for instance, back cycling and all that. And there are quite a few 'valid' ways of dealing with such things. One way is to take each chord at a time, typical of say John Coltranes approach to 'giant steps' where things are flying past so fast and changing radically there is only time to play say 4 8th notes per chord and so to 'think' that fast, what is really being played are arpeggios with passing notes an advanced ability to run one into the other with advanced voice leading.

Another way may be to stick to one underlying key centre that things are heading towards. Say in a back cycling turnaround kind of sequence such as E7-A7-D7-G-C. The C is the 'key centre' that we are resolving to through II-V-I's from a seemingly unrelated key. One way to approach this is to play 'C', much like in rock we might force the Pentatonic minor over a major chord for a bluesy sound. So, if we use the notes of C major. We can see in the first chord the 'outisde note is G# in the E chord, all other notes are a part of that scale. If we played a G instead, that's ok becuase that could sound 'bluesy' over an E7. The A7 though, well it is a C# that is out but again, the C is the minor third blue note, in just the same way. In D7 it is a F# and again, the F would be it's minor third and on the G7, all notes are within that chord being the V7 of C. So it would be perfectly 'ok' to play that whole sequence as in the key centre of C even though most of it contins notes alien to that key centre. The II-V movement is so strong and predictable it feels like it is leading somehwere and that the C major scale accomodates that anticipation...and a lot easier with some interesting 'blue notes' without the effort to have to think that through, especially if for instance things are flying back at 4 chords to the bar which is not at all uncommon in such things. This is perhaps what was being alluded too, or am I barking up the wrong tree.

Another way that Ash hinted at is the voicle leading. Other than the II-V bass movement, there is also a chromatic line in that sequence of D,C#,C,B,C in the 7ths and the thirds with G#,G,F#,F,E...so one might play of that idea as 'intervallic shapes' which is a kind of voice leading approach.

Now...the dorian thing. Modal stuff gets often in a different area and has been contentious around here previously and while I seem to be somewhat on the outside of the concensus here, I seem also to be on the 'outside' with you, so welcome to the majority. It is when you get to this kind of level that you perhaps start to feel the restrictions of thinking of modes in that way.

And, it is tricky to see how that relates to the first part of the question, but an interesting one.

Ok...so...

I know you would think of Dorian as a II so the key center will be a tone down, that's the easy part, but what would you use from that whole "think of keycenter concept"
to get that dorian sound?

let's say Dorian vamp on Dm7 to keep things easy

thoughts?

So, in this case we are talking a static vamp in Dm. Dorian is a flavour of Dm for me, not C major if that makes sense, which is where you are coming from. To me, dorian is it's own sound, not playing C major over a Dminor starting on the second degree or something. This has a whole other set of particular harmonisations of the scale, so very characteristic of this key is the Gmajor IV chord and the Aminor V chord. One could think in an arpeggiation kind of thing, where because things are 'static' one might want to create the impression of chordal movement because things are static. So one might play Gmaj and Amin arpeggios for instance. Start to think more in terms of 'chords' within the harmonised scale.


So, for me Dm is I of D dorian, not II...even though one arrives at the same notes thinking in C major a step below...

Hmm. So, there are lots of ways one might approach a static key, but I'm not sure that is what the 'exam question' was about. Might have to explain more. Because it is static for isntance, there is an opportunity to go wild with outside notes derived from chord substitution as an example and to impose 'sequences' over the 'vamp' to imply movement and create drive, even though the underlying sequence is going nowhere. This avoids the common 'modal noodling' that often frequents such music.

One of the things about 'modal jazz' such as the pioneering 'kind of blue' by miles davis, was to force previous elite bebop players used to fast moving keys and playing off those sequences, to force them to think melodically rather than the extreme harmonic nature that lines had necessarily become. To create melodic drive and tensions and releases from a melody rather than rely on those found in the chord sequences imposed by the sequences themselves. It was at the time, a radical departure and though masters, you can hear many of the players struggle a bit and a few old habits creep in, even though obviously a masterpiece and best selling jazz record of all time.

So, there are soo many options in a static Dm 'dorian' vamp, depending on what the music might dictate. One thing that many forget to do, and is especially useful at the start and end of solos, is to know the tunes melody (if it has one...or create one...or borrow one from some other dorian song, say a lot of 'santana tunes' which might grab ones ear) and elaborate from that. I'd consider 'tricks' like sideslipping from a half step below or even above to inject some very outside notes. It's tricky to do, you will hear it in players like Larry Carlton a bit and certainly sax player Micheal Breacker and such. Just as you might 'slide into the Dm from a half step below in some 'funky vamp' you can do that melodically to provide tension and release back into the Dm dorian modality. I personally will often think in terms of pentatonics and overlaying pentatonics and altered pentatonics on occassions. For instance, I know that in D dorian. The notes of Dm pentatonic and Em pentatonic gives all the notes of the complete Dm dorian 'mode' and so, while the Em pentatonic might seem to sound a bit 'unusual' it is in 'key' and less 'alien' than than 'side slipping' and can produce some intersting, often angular lines. You might consider arppeggios from other chords within the key and forming lines that appear to move as a sequence within the key centre, even though the sequence itself is not moving. An imporatant chord is the cadence in dorian which is typically bVII-i...so C to Dm, not the V-I Am-Dm typical in major and minor tunes. Again, a reason to think of the chracteristics of dorian as a mode in itself, not C played from the second degree andahving it's own characteristics as do all the 'modes'.

You could of course, superimpose some more harmonic substitutions over a static vamp like this...there are so many different approaches to such things while still being very conscious of the 'key' depending what your mood, style and the tune 'deserves'.

Perhaps the all time 'dorian tune' is miles davis's "So What" from 'kind of blue'. It 'vamps Dm and Em' for 16 measures, then Ebm to Fm for 8 measures, then back to Dm-Em for another 4 before returning for 4 and repeating (so another 8 meaures in dorian, often a little confusing for some). The bass carries the 'riff' melody answered by the chords and the tune like many in modal jazz uses a kind of 'quartal harmony' so the minor chords are stacked 4ths such as Dm7add4 typically fretted X-5-5-5-6-5.



Here's a faster guitar version by grant green...makes a melody there and elaborates it, derived from the riff...



Here's a funky backing track of the tune to practice your 'dorian' lines...



Ronnie jordan ahd a more 'modern' acid jazz hit with the tune and everyone knows this tune and a fun one to have for 'jamming' as most will know it...



Again, notice the strong melodic phrasing, even though that line is made up for his version, it provides a strong melodic thing to work off and avoid just 'noodling' and breathe new life into the tune.

...

So, perhaps I need more info as to what you are getting at, but that is something of a 'short essay' while half asleep, typos and all.

Perhaps the way to do that is to consider the actual exam 'question' or situtaion and what approach you took. Or set up a similar question. On the face of it I am thinking the kind of thing discussed earlier above where there are seemingly changing keys but 'thinking' in terms of a single key destination, rather than a chord by chord approach. As in playing C major lines over E7-A7-D7-G7-C rather than treat each chord or pairs of chords as from different keys or modes or what have you. Not that there is anything 'wrong' with working chord by chord, though often there is not much time and how fast can you think and have such lines 'flow' and not sound disjointed, how well do you know the fretboard so you are not playing say the E7 at the seventh fret and moving the 'shape' down with each chord with out it sounding a bit stillted and contrived and losing the ability to create a convincing and nicely phrased melody. There certainly is a palce and often a necessity to do that in typical bebop style, however, that is not necessarily the most effective way to deal with things and although I know that stuff, I doubt I could paly it convincingly, certainly not these days. But, that does not mean one can't play over such sequences that seem to shift a lot by thinking in terms of key centres.

Not sure if that helps of confuses, but feel free to ask question and will replay when able and if the new GF lets me!

[ozboomer]

Here's another situation where I miss our karma points...

An excellent discussion about options... and how to view and use the Dorian... and I'm another who's not snobbish about D Dorian being a "I" compared to a "ii" -type-of-thang out of C Maj

[greeneyezzz]

thanks for the info!

I would say that seeing D dorian as a I chord would mean seeing it as a "natural minor harmony" chord where you change the minor 6th to the natural 6th as a color tone.
I think that's just another mindset to achieve the same, no?

Anywayzzz,

I sent a mail to my teacher asking about what he meant (I had an exam with him recently and will not see him again till next year starts in October) and he just replied!
What a nice chap ;-)

here's what he said:

"The reason behind seeing any m7 chord you want to vamp dorian on as a II, is that you can relate it back to a parent harmonic major scale that you know inside out (providing you paid attention in class of course ;-) You have learned which maj/min pentatonics, which arpeggios and which triads (all diatonic) live in that scale and by superimposing them on any m7 chord (because that is what you are actually doing) you can create any modal sound by using them, derived from their respective parent scale. Personally I like the fact that I can use something I already know to achieve lots of different sounds!

for example :

For your Dm7 vamp, you can relate it back to D dorian being the II of the harmonised major scale of C, which in turn means you can use all the diatonic arpeggios and triads from the C major scale. Now, to bring out the dorian quality, you will want to emphasise the natural 6th (B) and the 9th (E) of D dorian. So I would suggest you look for arpeggios that have those notes in them. For the 9th you could use the Fmaj7 arpeggio (F A C E) and for the natural 6th you can use the Bm7b5 arp (B D F A). Use your own imagination and creativity to play around with those.

Another thing you could do, is using triads, something sax players do a lot. Again when relating it back to your key center of C major, something we talked about in class is what I called the Frank Gambale method : use the IV and V triads of the parent scale over your root note to get the modal sound. So use the F and G major triads together and again use your own creativity to make up nice lines.

Again, just experiment with what arps / triads bring out the modal sounds you aim for and try to use the things you already know to bring out what is in your head.
You can do the same for the pentatonics, but the strongest sounds are conveyed with less notes (triads sound much stronger on their own than scales, less is more!)

Good luck and I'll see you next year"

Interesting...

[4real]

right, well that is valid, though adds a bt more steps in the thought process and starts to get a bit restrictive. Yes, Frank Gambale's approach is excellent, but yet again, see's the modes as distinct unto themselves, not transposed major scales. For ther from that or extending it, it to understand the cadances, not just the extentions and seeing these 'colour tones' as part of the bigger modal progression thing.

But sure why not, I did at first generally. The 'patterns' and such still exist whether you transpose them or name them for what they are. If a tune is in Am, are you thinking Am or C, smae aeolian notes, and yet...A is the root and home and so I...C is the third...it becomes a bit of a mess in the head after a while when you start getting into more advanced stuff perhaps...however you think aobut it, as long as it is effective is fine.

I'm curious as to what he meant though still, is he suggesting teh key centre on a Dm vamp is actually C...couase it is quite clear that the D is the root and so I, the ransposing out of major scales is just an easy way to remember the notes but not the degrees, which is kind of what matters.

As a default though, I tend to take my own approach using added pentatonics. So, Dm vamp, I am thinking Dm pentatonic as any rock player would, with the addition of the E and B notes,the 9th and 6th for dorian. Or the E and Bb (9th and b6th)for Dm aeolian. (b6 and b9 for phrigian....similar things for the 3 major modes). I'm not even thinking of such things as 'colour notes' so much as them being part of the overall 'dorian tonality' and all that that implies, the scalualar harmony and chord famiies and cadences and all that. So, able to create movement, not just colour.

But that's just the note choice, avoiding just running around the scales and arpeggios and noodling is the harder part I guess on something like that. Because the progression is not progressing, I kind of feel an obligation that the melodic/solo stuff should be 'going somewhere' you know. Where as, with a faster progression that is moving, one might get way with forcing a single key centre over it, perhaps even a single repeated note that changes the 'function' as the progression moves behind it for instance.

In the end, it is not so much that there is a right or wrong way, just that you are able to be musically effective and play with some kind of intent and if improvising, able to avoid simple patterns for some spontineity and invention in the moment.

I think that taking as many ways to think of things is useful in the end, pick from those the things that mean the most. Modal stuff is just a tiny part of things and approaches and note choices. There really aren't 'wrong notes' just wrong ways to use them. And, there is a lot more to all this, especially melodic lines and drive that are rarely talked about, it tends to be very heavily biased towards harmony and scalualr note choice, and less how melodic lines move and notes resolve from one to another.

I imagine all of us start out thinking of modes in terms of transposed major scales, I know i did to get the 'concept' and the notes under the fingers. I studied to university level and that is perhaps a big influence, taking apart all that medeival and gregorian chants that were not conceived as transposed major scales, the major scale was just another 'mode' (ionian) and it was only later that it and it's conventions of functional harmony and 'just tempered' instruments drove things into the harmonic conventions we think of today. In that, we did lose some of the richness of how the modes kind of sounded and 'worked' I feel. However, there is so much to learn, do what ever works and if being 'examined' do what they want yu to do and understand it via their methods, it all can work after all!

[greeneyezzz]

I think you are already on another level as a player than me ;-)

I think it's like I am learning a language and my teacher first tells me what words are available to make up sentences so I can use that as a solid fundament on which to build my own
phrases. Like the more words you know, the better you can express yourself. I am doing a course in music so I assume there is a step-by-step learning plan that someone thought of ;-)

I find this relating back to the parent scale useful for now, I can actually jam over Dm7 and make it sound dorian, lydian or any mode by just relating it back. But indeed it is just color notes of a minor or major chord. I am is still nowhere near what advanced players do, but hey, it's a start!

thanks for the input!!

Sven

edit add :

the exam question was to improvise over Fm7 - Db7 - Dm7 and I struggled to bring out the Db7 mixo quality. Listening to blues and mr. Hendrix they taught me to go for a minor pentatonic over a dominant chord and blues it up, but here it just did not seem to work. But that's probably just me ;-)

[4real]

Jun 28, 2013 9:37:37 GMT -5 greeneyezzz said:

the exam question was to improvise over Fm7 - Db7 - Dm7 and I struggled to bring out the Db7 mixo quality. Listening to blues and mr. Hendrix they taught me to go for a minor pentatonic over a dominant chord and blues it up, but here it just did not seem to work. But that's probably just me ;-)

Well, that's an unsusal progresion, sounds quite nice, but would likely approach things with a mixture of things. Most likely 'target notes' form the chord arpeggios and filling between as suits.

If I ahd more time to 'analysie it', I'd likely see kind of two tonal modalities, the Fm7 and Db7 and the Dm7.

I would see the Dm7 as a dorian thing, but the Db7 is not and so treat this as a kind of special transition thing. I'd use mostly pentatonics as I do...so Fm7 with touches of the aeolian natural minor. So the pentatonic F,(G),Ab,Bb,C,(Db),Eb (ie pentatonic with the aeolian notes in brackets).

I'd see that the Db is a part of thatbut the big note different is the Cb which is a b5 of the Fmin7 so a nice bleue not and likely use that a bit to anticipate the change to Db7 or at least accent that as a target note for that chordal change (the C note will sound off as a maj& on the Db7). The Db7 arpeggio is Db,F,Ab,Cb/B is all common except that Cb/B note so the Fm Aeolian with the b5 blue note fits both chords.

The Dm7 feels like a distinct 'change' and although min, feels like a kind of 'lift' to me. So, a common tone in the dorian is that Cb/B in the Db7 so something to 'target' and sounds particularly colourful. But, it also has the C (the 7th) and playing with these two notes common in dorian to both the Fm and the Db7 is a kind of interesting thing. Otherwise, we have the D which gives the kind of 'lift' form the previous Db aeolian natural minor sound to my ears. A also gives a lift, kind of like that Maj/min thread effect in reverse. The Ab in both the Fm& (the powerful defining 3rd) and the 5th of the D& transfors to A, implying F major, for which the Dm is the relative minor.

So, the progression feels as if it is going almost from a mjor to a minor and back again (if repeated) and so there is that 'lift' into Dm7 and a 'letting down' melancholy effect of going back. So, would be targeting this change of the Ab to A and the B to C.

You could make a synthetic scale, there is no rule that a scale contains only 7 notes or even that many.

But there is a lot to this, it sounds really nice actually. Kind of has some of teh sounds found in the Tune Goodbye pork pie hat" (Mingus) famously covered by Jeff Beck and fav tune of mine...



Another tune to study that uses similar modal changes I suppose if "flamenco Sketches" by Miles Davis, the last track of 'Kind of Blue' which is still the textbook of modal playing...



This track really well illustrates the change in 'mood' by changing modes and shifting key centres and how each player approaches it, from Miles, to Coltrane and 'cannonball adderly's' solos. Notice how they make the transitions seem seemless generally, targeting common tones between the modal changes.

To get the most out of this, you just need to play it. I oly messed with it a few minutes and notices some nice 'leading lines' in your progression. I also found that touches of phrigina works.

But a lot of this is just 'vocabulary', names for note sets and colours. It is one of the misunderstandings about 'theory' that it some how dictates what one does, It is more a way of putting names to things and understanding and so giving more options. These are only just a few approaches one might take and there is a lot in this simple 3 chord movement. Messing around with it I could quickly see some nice unusual longer progressions out of it such as...
Fm7 - Db7 - D7 , Gm7 - Eb7 - Fm7 , Am7 - F7 - F#m7 , B7b6(5) - Cmaj7 - (E repeat)

This uses the smae sequence, sequenced up a tone so you can approach each set of theree chords, then shifting back to Fm in a kind of 'turnaround' thing I made up that sounded 'Ok'. The B7b6 I played 7x7887 resolving to the B7 7x7877, the Cmajor7 x35500 and the E7 the plain 0221000 open chord...shifting back to the Fm7 to repeat.

Just a few ideas generatted quickly from this simple little three chord movement and thinking about it a little bit.

I did study a lot of this stuff, but very rusty these days and my playing woefully neglected, but I do enjoy the 'puzzle' of suchthings and seeing where these ideas can lead, so thanks for sharing that with me...always good to exercise the mind a little and discover some new things, cheers Pete

[greeneyezzz]

Wow I'm gonna look into those tunes! thanks!!

I like those progressions that aren't really explained easily theoretically , they sound really nice! I guess that was the goal of that exam progression, you have to think of each chord on its own cause there's no "one scale to fit them all" solution. I have been jamming a lot on this lately and I tend to feel the Fm7 to have a Dorian quality also. Seeing the Cb of Db7 as a b5 in F really helped me!

I recently came up with a chord progression of my own that is not explained easily, but sounds sooo nice and is a joy to jam on! Try it out yourself and have a bottle of red next to a lit candle when jamming on this ;-) / Emaj7 - Cmaj7 / Bm7 - Amaj7 / and push the C and A chords a bit...

thx for the info!

Sven

[4real]

Jun 30, 2013 18:45:42 GMT -5 greeneyezzz said:

Wow I'm gonna look into those tunes! thanks!!

I like those progressions that aren't really explained easily theoretically , they sound really nice! I guess that was the goal of that exam progression, you have to think of each chord on its own cause there's no "one scale to fit them all" solution. I have been jamming a lot on this lately and I tend to feel the Fm7 to have a Dorian quality also. Seeing the Cb of Db7 as a b5 in F really helped me!

I recently came up with a chord progression of my own that is not explained easily, but sounds sooo nice and is a joy to jam on! Try it out yourself and have a bottle of red next to a lit candle when jamming on this ;-) / Emaj7 - Cmaj7 / Bm7 - Amaj7 / and push the C and A chords a bit...

thx for the info!

Sven

That's great, anytime. I enjoy the considering such things too. There are a lot more ways of looking at things and all valid.

I liked the Emaj7 - Cmaj7 - Bm7 - Am7 progression. All but the E maj & is Vmaj/A natural minor and the E chord is the 'odd one out' normally being Em7 in the key. The result is that maj/min lift...

A great alternative way to understand theory in a practical way is thoruhg 'songwritting books'. Rickky Rooksby's books like "how to write songs on guitar' is an excellent example. He calls such chords as the Emaj& in this progression as 'reverse polarity chords'...that is that minor chordds in the key are made major or visa versa. Such 'moves' aree a staple of soul music and even in pop such a the Seal song "Kiss from a Rose" F-G-A rather than and also Am. There are other songs of that sequence that are very effective. In soaul, a great one is 'Sitting on the dock of the bay" where every chord is major. So...
G - B - C - A in the verse or G - E And A) in the choruses. The chords B, A, and E should all be 'diatonically minor' and create these 'lifts' in the harmony. Looking at the melody that fits it, you will see how it cleaverly avoids the 'odd notes' in the harmony so allowing this to 'make sense' without clashing. So, the D# in B, the C# in A or the G# in the E chord are the only 'out notes' but simply don't occur in the melody and you can do the same thing with the solos should you choose.

Generally and for me anyway, if I try and think of everything as one chord at a time things get 'disjointed' and you lose flow and ahve too much 'theory' to think off. Often you will find that the 5 pentatonic notes will work through these kinds of progressions and then just add the notes that 'change' or alter something of the 5 pentatonic notes to suit. Just aobut anything can be generated that way from a solid understanding of the pentatonic things. For instance if you raidse the 7th of a minor penatatonic...say A,C,D,E,G# you get the sound of the harmonic minor that would accomodate an E7 in something like Am - Dm - E7 progression. Just add the notes F and B nad you have the whole Harmonic minor scale.

This is generally my way of keeping notes in mind and accomodate changes. It's alittle hard to explain, but the idea is that you don't really have to 'consciously' think about all this stuff, cutting down the 'thinking' so you can think about phrasing and melody and direction and technique is generally the aim.