shortie87
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Post by shortie87 on Sept 3, 2013 18:41:53 GMT -5
Hi Guys,
Sorry about my first post here being a request for help, but I'm currently working on a bit of a project and I'm totally lost as soon as it comes to wiring. I know exactly what I want, but I'm not sure how to go about getting it!
My guitar is an Ibanez RG1451 Prestige, and I'm currently trying to make some changed so I can get more sounds out of this guitar. I know Ibanez have a reputation for being shredders, but I love to play this guitar as I have small hands and the neck feels great to me. However, I'd love to be able to make more strat tones, more classic rock and blues tones rather than just face melting metal.
I want to keep the guitar as it is aesthetically, which means HSH layout, 1 volume and 1 tone, with a 5 way switch. What I want to be able to do is the following:
Position 1 - bridge (humbucker) Position 2 - bridge (humbucker) and middle Position 3 - bridge (humbucker) and neck (humbucker) Position 4 - neck (humbucker) and middle Position 5 - neck (humbucker)
Position 1 - bridge (coil tapped) Position 2 - bridge (coil tapped) + middle Position 3 - bridge (coil tapped) + middle + neck (coil tapped) Position 4 - neck (coil tapped) + middle Position 5 - neck (coil tapped)
Does this sound possible? Probably using a superswitch and pull/push pots? I think from the way I have it, If I used one pot to coil tap the humbuckers, and the other to turn on and off the middle pickup, this could work?
Thanks,
Martyn
PS. I thought I should add, this isn't the first guitar I've rewired, but it is the first with humbuckers and coil tapping, only experience I have so far is with a tele. However I am pretty proficient with a soldering iron, just not working out what to solder to where!
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Post by newey on Sept 3, 2013 21:56:00 GMT -5
That's what I was thinking as well. You will definitely need a Superswitch.
It might be possible to achieve what you want with just one P/P pot and a Superswitch. The P/P switch becomes a "mode switch", switching from what we'll call "regular Strat mode" (albeit with N + B in the middle) to "Middle/coil cut mode". Each mode takes up 2 poles of the Superswitch.
Not sure if that would work out or not, but it would be more elegant than pulling two separate pots.
Oh, and:
Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2!
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shortie87
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Post by shortie87 on Sept 4, 2013 1:19:42 GMT -5
Thanks for the warm welcome Newey!
Using one P/P would definitely be preferable to two, it would certainly be less confusing! I'm not 100% sure I know what I'm doing, but I'm going to start to try and put some kind of diagram together today, No doubt with the help of several sections of this forum! Willl post back here when I get something that looks kind of right...
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Post by newey on Sept 4, 2013 6:08:04 GMT -5
Basically, the way I'm envisioning this is that 2 poles of the Superswitch do the "regular switching". One of those poles switches the HBs at positions 1 and 5, and position 3 jumpers positions 1 and 5 together to give B + M. The other pole adds the mid pup at positions 2 and 4. The "mode switch" selects between those 2 poles and the second set of 2 poles for the "coil cut" switching. One pole does the coil cutting, the other adds the middle pup as needed. That's the theory, anyway. Hard to say if it'll work without putting pen to paper . . Since you are using master V and T controls, no switching of pots is needed, which uses up a pole on a regular Strat set-up. So your pots come last in line before the output jack, after all the switching is done.
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shortie87
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Post by shortie87 on Sept 4, 2013 11:06:27 GMT -5
Newey, I've drawn out the following, as the way I was describing my pickup configuration was starting to confuse me, so I don't know what it must have meant to you or anyone else... I'm a bit lost with super switches. If I understand correctly, what you propose is to effectively split the switch in 2, wire the humbucker setting on one side, the single coils on the other, then use the P/P to switch between the two? I'm sure thats not right...
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Post by newey on Sept 4, 2013 15:34:35 GMT -5
That's what I intended. Let me see if I can pull together a diagram to do so, again, just speculation at this point. It may be a while before I can get to a diagram, though.
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Post by JohnH on Sept 4, 2013 16:37:27 GMT -5
That's what I intended. Let me see if I can pull together a diagram to do so, again, just speculation at this point. It may be a while before I can get to a diagram, though. I think this will be a very good scheme with a wide and useful range. Let me me offer this thought in case it helps with your drawing. I think there is one trick required to make this work with a single push pull pot, because in position 3, changing modes requires three things to happen, and the pp switch only has two poles. So the idea is, using spare superswitch poles, let the two centre connections of the humbuckers become joined, but only in position 3. Then the mode change can be done with the two pp poles, one to ground both centre taps, and the other to engage M. Joining two humbucker centre taps, when both are active, should in theory make somewhere between zero and very little difference to the sound.
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shortie87
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Post by shortie87 on Sept 5, 2013 1:38:49 GMT -5
Newey - Thanks for clearing that up for me, I think I'm slowly starting to get my head around how this all works...haha! If you could come up with a diagram, that world be fantastic! There is absolutely no rush for this though, I'm still pulling a collection of parts together, and I'm going to wire this all up on a new pick guard so I can just drop it into the guitar complete, so it's not like it's currently out of action!
John H - Even though I don't think I understand that at all, I'm sure Newey will, and if it helps him in any way when putting together a diagram, its much appreciated!
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shortie87
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Post by shortie87 on Sept 5, 2013 18:42:01 GMT -5
Hi Guys, Just something else I've been thinking about today... do I need to get my middle coil RWRP or just the normal way? Either way, I'm sure there's no way to have noise cancelling in all positions... Just incase you're interested, I'm planning to use a set of Bareknuckle pickups, which are hand wound here in the UK. The Humbuckers will be these Nailbombs with an Irish Tour in the middle. I know "Nailbomb" screams metal, but they are supposedly some of the most versatile humbuckers available. They also sound amazing split, as per the sound clip found here.
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Post by newey on Sept 6, 2013 0:05:15 GMT -5
A HB and a SC cannot be completely hum-cancelling,since it's 3 coils. Your SC middle will always be opposite of one coil on each of the HBs, and will hum-cancel, if that coil is the one left operating when the coil cut switch is engaged.
Unless you are wedded to having a particular coil being operational when the coil cut is engaged, whether the middle is RWRP or not is really irrelevant when coupled with 2 HBs. By choosing the correct coil of each HB to engage when in single coil mode, the middle doesn't really matter. But, if you absolutely have to have a specific single coil- say, if you insist on having both outer coils when in cut mode, then it does matter which way around the middle is.
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shortie87
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Post by shortie87 on Sept 6, 2013 2:28:56 GMT -5
A HB and a SC cannot be completely hum-cancelling,since it's 3 coils. Your SC middle will always be opposite of one coil on each of the HBs, and will hum-cancel, if that coil is the one left operating when the coil cut switch is engaged. Unless you are wedded to having a particular coil being operational when the coil cut is engaged, whether the middle is RWRP or not is really irrelevant when coupled with 2 HBs. By choosing the correct coil of each HB to engage when in single coil mode, the middle doesn't really matter. But, if you absolutely have to have a specific single coil- say, if you insist on having both outer coils when in cut mode, then it does matter which way around the middle is. Thanks Newey. I feel a bit silly even saying this but I didn't even realise until I read this that the coils on a humbucker were wound in the opposite direction to each other, although they obviously wouldn't cancel hum if they weren't! The idea would really be to use whichever of the coils is wound hottest, unless of course they're wound identically, in which case I'd just go for whichever is easiest... I'll have to contact the manufacturer to see how they're wound, as I haven't bought them yet so couldn't measure.
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shortie87
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Post by shortie87 on Sept 6, 2013 5:05:10 GMT -5
I've just spoken to someone at Bareknuckle Pickups, and he has recommended I use the slug coils rather than the screw coils, and that they would generally supply the middle pickup RWSP for a HSH setup.
Does this sound about right?
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Post by JohnH on Sept 6, 2013 5:41:06 GMT -5
Id agree if they are open coil humbuckers. Then see if they confirm thar the slug coils of each pup are both the opposite magnetic polarity to the rwrp middle pup that they recommend. If so, yoh can have in-phase humcancelling combinations with M when you split the hb's
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shortie87
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Post by shortie87 on Sept 6, 2013 7:51:41 GMT -5
Id agree if they are open coil humbuckers. Then see if they confirm thar the slug coils of each pup are both the opposite magnetic polarity to the rwrp middle pup that they recommend. If so, yoh can have in-phase humcancelling combinations with M when you split the hb's They are open coils. The guy I spoke to said that the the middle coil would be RWSP, which confused me a bit as I've never seen them this way before, just stock or RWRP? He also said that doing it this way would give me hum cancelling in when the humbuckers are split in combination with the middle, so I'm assuming the must be opposite polarities. Here is the email he sent me: "It would be naturally better to use the slug coil of the humbuckers with the middle coil.
All you need to do is state in the comments box "HSH FORMAT" when ordering. We will make it 'RWSP' (reverse wound and stock polarity).
The humbuckers will need to be short leg and 4 conductor. The bridge pickup will almost definitely need to be 53mm."
Hes right in that the bridge is 53mm, and everything else is probably pretty obvious.
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Post by newey on Sept 6, 2013 11:01:22 GMT -5
This makes no sense. If the middle pickup is reverse wound but is not reverse polarity,it will be out of phase with both coils of the HBs. That is, unless you swap the wires around on the middle pickup, that will bring it back into phase with the HBs but it won't then be hum-cancelling with either coil of the HBs.
A HB has two coils. One coil is RWRP with respect to the other coil. The one coil must be both reverse wound as well as reverse polarized in order to be both hum-cancelling and in phase. If you only reversed the winding, without changing the magnetic polarity, the two coils would be hum-cancelling but out of phase.
Same is true of your middle pickup. If it is RWRP, it will be hum-cancelling with one of the two coils of each HB. If it is not RWRP, it will be hum-cancelling with the other (RWRP) HB coils.
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shortie87
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Post by shortie87 on Sept 6, 2013 13:34:40 GMT -5
So basically, the guy I spoke to is either:
a) very confused, or b) a total dumbass
Do I really need to worry about hum cancelling when it's in coil tapped mode too much? It's not like I'll be using this setting with high gain amps... Thats what humbuckers are for!
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Post by JohnH on Sept 6, 2013 15:22:04 GMT -5
So basically, the guy I spoke to is either: a) very confused, or b) a total dumbass Do I really need to worry about hum cancelling when it's in coil tapped mode too much? It's not like I'll be using this setting with high gain amps... Thats what humbuckers are for! Lets give him the benefot of the doubt! But, with all those coils, you may as well have hum cancelling when you combine M with a split Hb. Also, whatever you get, it is always possible to swap wires around to make it work out, and you can then spin the Hb's around 180 degrees if you are interested in whether you split to an inner or an outer coil. The only thing that is a stake is whether all that works out using teh slug coil or the screw coil. The slug coil sometimes has more metalic meat to it, so if they say its the best one to use, then Id want to take that advice. If it was a covered Hb, then Id want the screw coil, which is capabale of getting its poles up through the cover. Are you getting all three from Bareknuckle? If so, just go for their HSH arrangement, but get them to confirm that the middle pickup is opposite magnetic polarity to the slug coils of the humbuckers. Thats all it needs to be, we can sort out the rest. Tell him you are sorry to be so insistent but you are getting a lot of grief from some nerds on an internet forum! cheers John
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shortie87
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Post by shortie87 on Sept 6, 2013 16:03:25 GMT -5
Lets give him the benefot of the doubt! But, with all those coils, you may as well have hum cancelling when you combine M with a split Hb. Also, whatever you get, it is always possible to swap wires around to make it work out, and you can then spin the Hb's around 180 degrees if you are interested in whether you split to an inner or an outer coil. The only thing that is a stake is whether all that works out using teh slug coil or the screw coil. The slug coil sometimes has more metalic meat to it, so if they say its the best one to use, then Id want to take that advice. If it was a covered Hb, then Id want the screw coil, which is capabale of getting its poles up through the cover. Are you getting all three from Bareknuckle? If so, just go for their HSH arrangement, but get them to confirm that the middle pickup is opposite magnetic polarity to the slug coils of the humbuckers. Thats all it needs to be, we can sort out the rest. Tell him you are sorry to be so insistent but you are getting a lot of grief from some nerds on an internet forum! cheers John I'll definitely be going for the uncovered set. I'd be tempted to go down the covered route if it was a Les Paul or something I was putting them in, but the uncovered middle just looks lost in the middle of two covered HB's. IMO of course... All 3 will be coming from Bareknuckle. They don't seem to advertise any HSH sets on their site (although they do have HSS sets), But after a bit more digging, it looks like I need the middle RWRP to cancel hum when the slug coil is split with the middle. As you say John, it can be made to work somehow! I've got a new pick guard landing soon so I'm going to order up a couple of P/P 500k pots and a super switch, that way i'll have something to get cracking with, even if I have to wait a little while for the pups. Thanks again
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Post by newey on Sept 6, 2013 21:05:09 GMT -5
Here was what I had in mind. Now let's wait for JohnH to tell me it won't work! Seriously, I think this gives you what you're after. Maximizing hum cancellation may be an issue, as the way I have shown it both series junctions are grounded, thus we select the same coil on each HB regardless. But since you don't have N(SC) + B(SC) at position three when in SC mode, instead you have all three pickups operating, only two of the three coils can be hum-cancelling anyway. It really shouldn't matter much which two it is. EDIT: Actually, now that I look at it again, and looking back at JohnH's earlier comments, we don't even really need to use the 4th pole of the Superswitch for the coil cuts, both series junctions could just as easily go directly to the middle lug of S2.
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Post by JohnH on Sept 6, 2013 21:19:47 GMT -5
Here was what I had in mind. Now let's wait for JohnH to tell me it won't work! OK The idea should be to only let the centre tap connections get joined in position 3, when both N and B are on, if they are permanently joined, the pure N and B humbucker sounds will also get partly mixed. Ill see if i can sketch it.. ....EDIT..hmmm..seems trickier than I thought...! I'll think for a while...
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shortie87
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Post by shortie87 on Sept 6, 2013 21:49:46 GMT -5
Guys, this is awesome stuff, thanks for the diagram Newey! I'm really not fussed about hum cancelling in the "SC Mode" positions, and as you say it would only work in positions 2 and 4 anyways. I've just downloaded a pack for Microsoft Visio which contains guitar electronics, so I'm going to try to draw this up digitally. That way you guys can give it a proper look over without having to deal with my chicken scratched hand drawings!
Are there certain positions that are making things awkward, or is it more the coil tapping?
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Post by JohnH on Sept 6, 2013 22:13:26 GMT -5
Are there certain positions that are making things awkward, or is it more the coil tapping? Its the position 3, and the way is intened t change from two full humbuckers, to all three pickups as single coils. there's a lack of poles to make that change. If you want it, then I think the mode switch needs to be a 3 pole toggle, which is a seperate switch not a push pull. So thats an option. or, is there any other mixture of settings that you would find worth having at position 3?. Eg, you could have both humbuckers, or the pure M single and change between those? But any other thoughts?
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Post by newey on Sept 6, 2013 22:15:46 GMT -5
You will get some hum-cancelling in position 3, just not optimal cancellation. Whether it gives Hum-cancelling in 2 and 4 depends upon which way the middle pickup is, whether it's RWRP or not. At any rate, we can fix it easily so that the correct coils are selected if it's wrong as it now is.
There's nothing awkward here, actually I'm feeling a bit pleased with myself (pending verification that it works as advertised!). Wiring it as JohnH suggested, with both series junctions wired together to S2's middle lug, is a bit cleaner, design-wise. Fewer connections is always better, since every connection is a potential point of failure.
I read what John had said, but I didn't "see" it until I had drawn my own diagram.
EDIT:Gaaah! Ninja'd by John! Looks like it's back to the drawing board.
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shortie87
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Post by shortie87 on Sept 6, 2013 22:26:01 GMT -5
John - I'll be honest, I doubt I'd use the middle single on its own, I barely ever use it now, so I doubt theres much point putting it in there really, and both humbuckers on is already an option... would using a second P/P to disable the middle as mentioned earlier make things easier? I think I could live with that if so. Newey - Thanks for all your efforts so far! I know we'll get there eventually its half 4 in the morning here in the UK and I'm really struggling to concentrate at the moment, so I feel your pain!
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Post by newey on Sept 6, 2013 23:38:05 GMT -5
Yeah, I went back and looked at this again, John is right, we're short a pole . . . So, we either need another switch like your original idea for a "mid on", or as John noted, a 3P toggle.
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Post by JohnH on Sept 7, 2013 0:44:12 GMT -5
I thought about it some more, and I cant solve the problem that I thought I had a smart-@ss solution for. Appologies for wasting peoples time. So, here's what I think the options are:
1. a 3 pole toggle, or
2. give up on having M in position 3, and do a basic B, B+M, B+N, N+M, N, with the B and N both changeable to single coil using one push pull
3. as 2, with a second push pull that does one of three things: (a) forces M on in any position, or (b) forces M on, but only in position 3, or (c) switches B and N off, and puts M on only, or
4. seperate push/pulls to coil cut B and N, which gives you a few more options, and lets you preset things like Neck single and Bridge humbucker, to be selected just with the 5 way. As a variation on this....
...5, which is as 4, but if you pull both push/pulls, M is added to Nsingle and Bsingle in position 3 (uses the spare push/pull poles)
I think Id go with either 2 beacuse its simple and clear, or 5 because I just thought of it and it might be quite interesting. John EDIT..I just tried to write the term smart-a-s-s, and the automatic word police changed it to smart-butt! So I thought I had a smart-butt answer!! LOL
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Post by Yogi B on Sept 7, 2013 4:07:36 GMT -5
Yeah, I went back and looked at this again, John is right, we're short a pole . . . So, we either need another switch like your original idea for a "mid on", or as John noted, a 3P toggle. That got me thinking: what about being short a pole on the other switch? Does Eyb still do those 8p5t super double megaswitches? If so you could still go with your original idea with only the one push/pull using a layout like this: (uses Bare Knuckle colours) In position 3 the coil taps are still joined together, however - as John pointed out - this should make very little to no appreciable difference in tone. However, I can't help feeling that those three spare poles could be used to somehow fix that if it really mattered. Yogi.
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shortie87
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Post by shortie87 on Sept 7, 2013 4:08:30 GMT -5
Haha good old swear filters! Option 3 could work, a bit like the Dave Gilmour custom shop strat, but option 5 does sound good...definitely would open up a few options more than I had already! Lets go with option 5 and see how it works out, could always fall back to option 2. If I'm right, doing it this way would also negate the need for the superswitch, as the push/pulls will be doing the coil tapping?
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shortie87
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Post by shortie87 on Sept 7, 2013 4:11:26 GMT -5
That got me thinking: what about being short a pole on the other switch? Does Eyb still do those 8p5t super double megaswitches? If so you could still go with your original idea with only the one push/pull using a layout like this: (uses Bare Knuckle colours) In position 3 the coil taps are still joined together, however - as John pointed out - this should make very little to no appreciable difference in tone. However, I can't help feeling that those three spare poles could be used to somehow fix that if it really mattered. Yogi. Mate, that is crazy! I doubt I could even get a switch like that in my guitar to be honest... EDIT: Actually, I definitely could, as its not how I expected at all, I was thinking 4 wafers... Finding one would be interesting though!
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Post by Yogi B on Sept 7, 2013 4:28:21 GMT -5
Yeah, the real things are roughly the same size as a standard superswitch. However, I couldn't think of a better way of representing in it my diagram other than stacking four 2p5t switches on top of each other. (Image pulled from here) Attachments:
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