SSS 3P4T wiring - need help reading this diagram

[kcroy]

I am trying to figure out what the different tone settings on this guitar are, and could use some help.

I recently acquired a used neck-through strat clone - the previous owner swapped out one tone pot for a 3P4T rotary switch. I am attempting to make sense of the wiring, and ultimately re-solder some portions ( some are falling apart ) . My electronics knowledge is limited - I have read through a number of articles, have a copy of Electronics for Dummies - but still struggle with some core concepts.

I have attempted to recreate the wiring below - but got pretty liberal with the coloring and the naming. If there is anything in there I should adjust to make it easier to read, please let me know.

Thanks in advance - any input appreciated.



EDIT:

So for example -

5 Selector: Position 1
4 Selector: Position 1

N/M/B in Parallel with M out of phase?

EDIT: Image updated to include numbering on rotary, and adjusted common on 5 way selector

guitar_wiring_1.1.pdf (288.11 KB)

[newey]

kcroy-

Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2!

I'm off to work in a minute, so no time to do more than a quick look at this. I'm not sure you have correctly traced all the wiring- for example, the bridge pickup doesn't seem to be grounded anywhere.

But, in general, the rotary switch seems to be used for series selections. It seems to also add in the middle pickup, which is not switched on the 5-way. Seems like the rotary is giving N * B ( "*" designating a series connection), M * B, and M * N, with the 4th position being a bypass to the 5-way switch? But I won't swear to that without a longer look at this.

[sumgai]

kcroy,


Hi, and to the NutzHouse!


I have to say that if this diagram truly represents what's inside your axe, then be forewarned that it may become the best option to simply rip it all out and start over. I find the 'need' to tell you this because we usually get requests for "Please show me how to wire up a bunch of switches so I can get these combinations - X, Y, Z, etc." You've brought us something from the other direction, and while that's good, it keeps up on our toes, there sometimes comes a time when it's better to stop batting one's head against the wall and start over from scratch.

With that in mind, I gently suggest that you make notes for yourself as to what you want out of this guitar. Given the extra rotary switch available, we can most likely give you at least a few options as to how to reach your desired setup.

But if 'restoring' the previous owner's mods is top priority for you, then please - double check your drawing against the physical wiring again - what you've shown us so far is what we in the industry call "boned".

HTH






sumgai

[kcroy]

Ha, thanks everyone. For me this is a learning experience, and a challenge - what I am hoping to get out of this is:

1) Better understanding of electrical principles that I struggle with
2) Better understanding of wiring options
3) Recreating the guitar as the previous owner had it. He put in a bit of time doing this wiring ( inside is very nicely shielded, coils are  wrapped with gold? foil ) , and I'd like to experiment with it. It worked - I was playing it before I decided to poke around in its innards, and liked how it sounded... but the switches made no sense to me.

I understand if this is just a pain in the butt to try and figure this out - I don't want anyone to feel like they need to drag me through this mess

I will definitely double check my tracing of the wiring.



I also created a gallery if anyone wants to look at images of my find.

imgur.com/a/WnVRp#0

[kcroy]

Sept 4, 2013 5:49:52 GMT -5 newey said:

 I'm not sure you have correctly traced all the wiring- for example, the bridge pickup doesn't seem to be grounded anywhere.

But, in general, the rotary switch seems to be used for series selections. It seems to also add in the middle pickup, which is not switched on the 5-way. Seems like the rotary is giving N * B ( "*" designating a series connection), M * B, and M * N, with the 4th position being a bypass to the 5-way switch? But I won't swear to that without a longer look at this.

Hi Newey - Thanks for taking a look, and the warm welcome. I double checked the bridge and it looks like it connects to Pole B and A2.

I'm not sure I fully understand how the selectors work, but if A2 is selected on the 5 way switch, and Position 1 on the rotary, then:

• B- goes to the (+) on the volume pot
• B+ gets connected through the 5 way common to the rotary
• Rotary position 1 would connect B+ to M-, N+ and the Tone ground

Is that correct?

[newey]

Well, for starters, if we're going to have this discussion, you need to number the lugs on the rotary so that we can specify what we're talking about. I don't know what "position 1" on the rotary means.

But let's look again at position 2 (the middle position) on your switch, which you used as an example. As you noted. B- connects to the volume pot "hot", and thence to output. But lug A2 is also connected to the A "pole", which is jumpered via a green wire to B "pole", to which is connected, ah, the B+. This means that both ends of the pickup are connected together at that switch position, and you won't get any output, it's a dead short.

Now, no output from the bridge pup at that position may well have been an intended result. But let's look at position 3 on the switch- look at it regardless of the rotary control. (You'll see why in a minute). Now, at position 3, B pole connects to B3, which is connected to ground. Since B pole is jumpered over to A Pole, anything connected to A pole is likewise grounded.

That includes the output of all the rotary settings, since each of the 4 lugs is connected via the blue wire, on one pole or another of the rotary. This means that the bridge pickup is the only one which could be operational in that settting, since both the neck and middle connect through the rotary, if at all. And, it is "on" at position 3, which might be expected, depending on the numbering.

The best way to proceed is to make up a chart with the various switch permutations, listing what pickups are operating at each switch setting- what we call a "truth table".

[kcroy]

I updated the rotary switch to include numbers. How are the poles usually labelled?

I checked the poles on the 5 way switch with my multimeter, and they are not connected - updated that on the diagram. I thought those poles were connected internally in the switch - is that not the case?

I will go find out what a truth table is, and will start mapping stuff out!

Thanks again for your help.

[newey]

Your truth table will be a 4 X 5 grid, representing the 4 positions of the rotary on one axis and the 5 positions of the 5-way on the other.

If we call the bridge setting "position 5" on the 5-way (corresponding to your "3" on the diagram), then the bridge pickup is always "on" in that setting of the 5-way and the rotary is disconnected. So, you can fill in row 5 of the table with "Br" all the way across, 1 through 4.

At position 3 on the switch, with the rotary at position 1, the Bridge is disconnected and the rotary switch gives you the neck pickup in parallel with the middle pickup, i.e., "N + M". So you can fill in that box. Now, the 5-way makes "position 4" internally, by connecting positions 5 and 3 in parallel. Since position 5 gives you the Br only, and position 3 is N + M, at position 4, again with the rotary at "1", you get Br + M + N.

At position "1" on the 5-way, again with the rotary at position "1", you have the bridge in series with the middle pup (B * M), with both of those in parallel with the neck, so at that position you get (Br * M) + N. As above, position "2" on the 5-way is just the sum of 1 and 3, so you get (Br * M) + N + M (very odd!)

Now, let's go to position "2" on the rotary, and fill in the next row on your table. Again, position 5 on the 5-way, with the rotary at 2, will still be just the Br alone. At position 3 on the 5-way, we get Middle alone ("M"). So, at position 4, we have B + M. At position 1 on the 5-way, we get Br * M. So, position 2 becomes (Br * M) + M (again, oddly wired).

That, then, fills in half of your table. I haven't looked at positions 3 and 4 on the rotary yet. See if you can work those out, and I'll check your work.

But, so far, this is very oddly wired, if this is, in fact, how it goes in reality.

Also, just a matter of convention, but you seem to have reversed the "+" and "-" designations for all three pickups. Doesn't matter to the wiring, since all three are consistent that way, but it's usually the other way around, so that "+" connects to output and "-" to ground (for in-phase connections).

[kcroy]

Thanks I'll give this a try tonight. Really appreciate the help getting me started. Would it make sense for me to resolder the wires that broke, so I can test the various settings, to confirm what I'm seeing in the diagram?

regarding the +/- settings - I marked them based on the colors of the pickup wires, rather than where they were going. Does the pickup polarity matter?

[newey]

Does the pickup polarity matter?

Lose the word "polarity" in this context. Polarity is a DC concept, and your pickup is AC. There really isn't any true "negative" or "positive". We use the "+" and "-" as a sort-of convenient shorthand, but remember that doesn't correspond to reality.

AC circuits do exhibit a property called "phase". Phase does matter, and it's only in order to ensure correct phasing between any two (or more)pickups that we even use the "+" and "-" symbols.

"Hot" and "ground" are similarly technically inaccurate, but again, it's a convenient way of discussing things, so long as we bear in mind that it's not wholly accurate to call them by those names.

In the case of your diagram, so long as all three pickups are wired in the same fashion (and it appears that your diagram does so), it doesn't matter which way 'round they are, so long as all three are one way or the other.

If you reverse the "+" and "-" for one of the three, you have put that pickup "out-of-phase" with the other two. Change two pickups, and you put both out-of-phase with the remaining one, but in phase with each other.

[kcroy]

It has been a while since I've had the free time to work on this. I want to start off by thanking again everyone who has helped in this thread. I worked on the truth tables, Newey if you get the chance, please let me know if this looks correct to you. I apologize, I built this with the bridge switch across the top - so the columns and rows are different from what you wrote.

BRIDGE SWITCH ACROSS THE TOP

	1	2	3	4	5
1	(Br * M) +N	(Br * M) +N +M	N + M	Br + N + M	Br
2	(Br * M )	Br + M	M	Br + M	Br
3	( Br * N * M )	Br +  ( N * M )	( N * M )	Br + ( N * M )	Br
4	( Br * N )	Br + N	N	Br + N	Br

Newey - I found something different than what you had written:

Now, let's go to position "2" on the rotary, and fill in the next row on your table. Again, position 5 on the 5-way, with the rotary at 2, will still be just the Br alone. At position 3 on the 5-way, we get Middle alone ("M"). So, at position 4, we have B + M. At position 1 on the 5-way, we get Br * M. So, position 2 becomes (Br * M) + M (again, oddly wired).

When I mapped out the circuit on paper , (Br * M) + M  turned into Br + M. At least that is what I think is going on.