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Post by dannyhill on Oct 24, 2013 16:27:06 GMT -5
Here's another.
That Wildkat, why are the central two strings (D and G) the same height above the 12th fret (from bottom of string) as the 6th (low E)? i.e.
2.25/2.1/2.25/2.25/1.9/1.75mm?
It also uses a tune o matic.
All my other guitars tune o matic, fender ashtray, fender modern tele, strat etc all have a gradual decrease from low E to high E, i.e. 2 to 1.5 or 2.25 to 1.75mm etc
Is that bridge poorly aligned too?
How does one align the bridge with the nut? Align the stop tail or bigsby first with the nut? How is that done?
Cheers,
Danie
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Post by 4real on Oct 24, 2013 16:59:34 GMT -5
Got to see detailed photos danny, all seem to be problems that can be addressed. As for the strings not alighning with the poles, this is all very common, typically the pups are the same size so of course there weill be some 'drift' but it does not effect function. If itis a bigsby on it, a replacement that uses roller saddles is likely more appropriate option and some of these perhaps you could find have a longer 'throw' if that is the issue...
Otherwise, yep, these things are cheap gutiars, they are cranked out relatively identical and so the bridges and such are likely to be CNCed in the right place...
Anyway, as I say, without detailed pitures, very ahrd to follow what the issues and solutions might be...
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Post by dannyhill on Oct 25, 2013 15:28:54 GMT -5
BTW With regards to the Wildkat. How is my alignment? How is my bridge arc and saddles?     I guess a roller bridge would help here? Perhaps Wilkinson's with the adjustable bridge angle? They sound like tone killers but I guess its better that than constantly going out of tune when having to strong arm the Bigsby? Sorry about the poor pics, must have had the wrong light setting (ISO) on the camera, they seemed grainy at the time. But I had to be quick as the wife was loitering. D |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2013 0:08:53 GMT -5
The wildcat's string alignment seems perfect. About the saddles' radius: there might be some problem, which is very close to the floyd rose situation i described in a previous thread.
1) find a good original identical bridge and look up the saddles orientation, just for reference, to see where the peak/groove leans to : tailpiece or neck, i see you have this variation in your current setup that's why i am asking you this.
2) unscrew the saddles, disassembly, and place them on a flat surface. Then check their heights. It should be 2 long ones, 2 medium and 2 short ones. Arrange them as putting the two long ones in the center, the mediums left and right of the center, and the short ones on the far ends left and right. Then consult your research in step 1) above to see if the orientation of some of the saddles should be the opposite (helping intonation, and such).
3) place them back in the bridge, following the same arrangement as in 2).
4) tune the guitar, plug it in, and wail away! (that last one i took it from ibanezrules, english is not my native tang!)
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2013 0:14:02 GMT -5
smth more :
By orientation of the saddles i mean the side in which the "angle" on the top of the saddle points at. Different way of saying this.
And smth more : the intonation on the wildcat must be totally out of shape. I dont see the usual pattern as seen on a correctly setup guitar. gradually increase from high-E to G, and then from D->low E, so while you are at it, you may fix this as well.
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Post by dannyhill on Oct 26, 2013 8:10:10 GMT -5
Hi Greekdude,
I don't quite follow you.
Surely the saddles are all the same height?
Its their mounting which follows the radius/arc of the bridge, and hopefully the neck!, and so they the same height above the fretboard, except when the bridge is angled (usually from low E up to high E)?
Cheers,
Danny
PS Anyone got to say anything about using a roller bridge to get a smoother Bigsby action? I don't use the spacer and I changed the 7/8 spring for a 1" and that meant I could go up and down a whole tone without hitting the stop but it does make you work that extra bit to get down there compared to the 7/8" so I will probably change back. Mr 4Real? I have put photos on, but no words of wisdom yet! Are you 4Real?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2013 8:58:51 GMT -5
Hi Greekdude, I don't quite follow you. Surely the saddles are all the same height? Its their mounting which follows the radius/arc of the bridge, and hopefully the neck!, and so they the same height above the fretboard, except when the bridge is angled (usually from low E up to high E)? Cheers, Danny Then how come and you have non uniform string heights? Either the problem is on the bridge/saddles or the frets or the nut. Go and buy some radius gauge and check precisely (all 3 of them : nut, frets, bridge). About the roller bridge, etc... no matter how much you invest, only to find out later that you want roller nut as well, locking machine heads, etc etc etc... you won't get it right. I have been struggling with more sophisticated bridges than that (strat + supervee bladerunner) and still nothing close to perfect. In short, if it's not a double locking tremolo, then it is only meant for very light use. |
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Post by dannyhill on Oct 26, 2013 10:00:48 GMT -5
OK, I see what you mean now. The saddles should be all the same height and I need to check they are.
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Post by 4real on Oct 26, 2013 15:11:13 GMT -5
Hi Greekdude, I don't quite follow you. Surely the saddles are all the same height? Its their mounting which follows the radius/arc of the bridge, and hopefully the neck!, and so they the same height above the fretboard, except when the bridge is angled (usually from low E up to high E)? Cheers, Danny PS Anyone got to say anything about using a roller bridge to get a smoother Bigsby action? I don't use the spacer and I changed the 7/8 spring for a 1" and that meant I could go up and down a whole tone without hitting the stop but it does make you work that extra bit to get down there compared to the 7/8" so I will probably change back. Mr 4Real? I have put photos on, but no words of wisdom yet! Are you 4Real? Yep, Pete is 4real, but it is 6am on a Sunday Morning and almost time for us to 'go to work'...but as the GF is quietly snoring, I can take a sec... Also, I was waiting to see what kind of decisions you've made re keeping the guitars... Bigsby's are renown for tuning instability, even bending the notes and all that are a PITA...my first guitar was so fitting...grrr...howver they do have that retro cool vibe. (It's not true that one needs a 'locking system' to have great tuning stability, my khalers have much of the vintage feel of a bigsby and the 'principle' with the kinks ironed out...but it is a lot more than just the trem itself that gives this...) I'm further confused with the conversation which seems to be muddying things up a bit... TOM bridges tend to need a set up. The bridge saddles are generally different heights (or the bridge itself is curved) or made so to follow the curve of the fretboard and the heaight of the bridge generally a bit higher on the bass side to accomodate the wider arch of the vibrating bass strings and adjust action and such. These kinds of things, and string slotting things are adjusted when properly set up. It would seem that the strings are 'sloted' to be fairly well alighned to the edge of the fretboard, that is what matters surely... However, you have what would appear to be fairly cheap 'diecast' saddles, probably zinc or something (hence the greay under the plating)...a roller saddle with a good break over is likely to use brass 'wheels'...I advised someone to use a roller saddle on a Jafguar with much imporoved results, which are plagued with similar problems to bigsby's... So, I am pretty sure there are roller bridges around, not to dear, that adjust for the string distances to get a perfect alighnment with the fretboard edges... On the other end, a graphtec nut is likely a good idea, locking tuners are on most of my guitars these days, even my acoustic without trem, and can really help. There may well be some issues with the design of the guitar, but what are you going to do...fender designed a straight string pull over the nut with the 6-in-line tuner arrangment...on my LP I devised a set of rollers out of string ball ends to pull the strings straight over the nut and seems to work really well (locking tuners also on it)...  But even with such things, the Bigsbies have significant desing 'flaws' despite their 'retro cool'...there is a lot of string back there behind the bridge and bending around rollers and a single spring and all that...they will end to have 'issues' as a matter of course and of course, not designed for 'fender like' bending or 80's excesses... ... Ok, so if it were me, as I like my guitars to play and stay in tune as well as possible...and there are people like 'Johnny A' that do a great 'shimmer' with traditional bigsby set ups on his Gibson Signature model... I'd be looking for a roller nut for this purpose, a good graphtec nut well seated and slotted and locking tuners... A bridge like this kind of thing perhaps... www.ebay.com.au/itm/like/110711286272?hlpht=true&ops=true&viphx=1&lpid=94I notice this one has adjustable and locking to the bridge posts to help with intonation and keep the bridge stable 9you don't want a roller bridge rocking about, but rock solid. Bigsby's own we site have similar examples and set up tips so read that for sure... www.bigsby.com/vibe/resources/setup-tips/I have seen I'm sure, a roller bridge that can adjust for the widthe between strings (as khalers can also) and this I fell migh be useful to get the correct string spread or preferences, but your guitars seem fairly standard TOM sizes and such so not a big issue. One of the tricky things with roller bridges is though, you really need to gt a good angle back over the rollers, the break angle. Kahlers can ahve these problems as they have quite large 'rollers' but, it is purely because of this aspect, especially on high strings. To 'cure it' I shim the neck a touch to get that angle. On my LP, the arch of the guitar and different mounting has no problems adjusting for all that...  guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/5313/kahler-trem-lpThis project might give you ideas. Kahlers are full floating bridges with ultimate adjustment and work much like a 'bigsby' without all the design flaws. Basdially the bridge is stable and the strings remain level with the fretboard, (unlike fender or locking systems that 'lift' when depressed, not a bad thing mind as the strings are going loose). The bridge part is fixed then, and the 'cam part' behind moves. It does not have to contend with long lengths of steretchy sting behind the bridge. At the other end, graphtec nut and rollers to keep things straight over the nut and then locking tuners with no wraps around the post that can mess things up... My Khaler trem has easily as much 'throw' as any locking system and remarkable tuning stability...but then that has no string trees, LSR roller nut and shaller locking tuners. Not a 'cheap' system'...but neither are bigsby's... OK, gotta go... |
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Post by 4real on Oct 26, 2013 16:54:42 GMT -5
What bigsby's are good for (of course any trem really can produce this effect if you practice)...
Anything more than the 'shimmer' and you are asking for trouble...other problems is if you bend a lot (all strings detune when you bend so bending is harder and strings need to be pushed further) and if you ahve a heavy technique, your pick strokes will audibly start flat (not necessarily a bad thing) but really heavy and fast picking, the strings may never get back to pitch before the next note...but then a lot of light string 80's shreaders have similar problems with light trem setups...or the reverse which sounds worse...being sharp with those light strings and heavy picking action...
There are guys that can control it, really light touch and all, but not everyone is in that league not aspire to be!
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Post by lunaalta on Oct 29, 2013 10:18:49 GMT -5
LOL, You beat me to it GD......  I'm on the Costa Blanca, near Javea, dannyhill. If you're ever passing by here, give me a shout. We could, maybe, have a beer and some tapas!  I've seen situations were, for instance, a Squire Strat was sold to a lady, to learn on. It was missing the whammy bar and totally, I mean TOTALLY, unplayable. And the strings were beginning to corrode! In my book, that's unfit for it's purpose! She bought it along with an amp, in a small shop, in a small coastal town here, in Spain. Also, a young lad was sold a Fender Strat, also to learn on. Also, unplayable. What shocked me is that a good latin (Cuban) guitarist friend had been teaching him to play guitar with it! That's just plain unprofessional, on both parts. While the guitarist was away, the kid's mum asked me to give him a couple of lessons (how I came to find this out).  Of course, the first lesson was spent teaching him how to set up his instrument. AND, how to tune it! Go figure........... Another unfit for it's purpose situation, on both counts! His teacher dropped 1,000 points in my estimation, as did the seller........... As a side to this, the guitar seller was selling strings, to his customers, telling them they were what I used (It's a small place....). And, I know he didn't sell Ernie Ball strings, just a cheap crappy brand that his supplier distributes. That did get me p****d!  Small compensation, but his shop only lasted a couple of years......... So, buyer beware, is paramount, if you are in Spain, for sure! |
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Post by dannyhill on Nov 28, 2013 11:35:17 GMT -5
Dear all,
An update.
I returned it and after waiting for a replacement they refunded me, tried somewhere else although sale didn't go through and went back to original seller after they had new stock (1) in.
On receipt, this also seemed to be B-stock, although only minor cosmetic issues (run in varnish, pickup surround skewed, gold hardware tarnished..) that could not be fixed with time and money. They agreed to returning me 60€ of the 295€ sale price.
Very happy now, especially after some 'home made' fret dressing has allowed me some lowish action up to the 22nd fret.
I have to say, even when perfectly in tune it seems to sound out of tune or dull. Could that be old strings, poor nut and/or bridge?
Thanks for following the saga. :-)
Cheers,
Daniel
PS The original guitar with the badly drilled post holes is now on sale as 'ex demo' at 220€.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2013 3:36:12 GMT -5
Daniel, dull might mean bad nut or saddles. This needs a little chasing around. Is it only on open notes? does it happen an all frets? on some frets? PS about strings, most people would normally tell you this is the no1 thing to check. But, at least with my ibby, the 12th fret is almost worn, and i still have stock strings !!! if it does not break, don't touch it  |
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Post by ux4484 on Nov 29, 2013 8:29:20 GMT -5
PS about strings, most people would normally tell you this is the no1 thing to check. But, at least with my ibby, the 12th fret is almost worn, and i still have stock strings !!! if it does not break, don't touch it Ummmmm... If you DON'T change strings, you could be chasing ghosts. Especially if you prefer a different brand/gauge then is currently on it. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2013 10:11:44 GMT -5
^^^ i have played with Fenders in stores and i would throw their strings to the garbage can without second thought. However most of *my* strings seem to persist in time. Don't know why.. Local climate ?? maybe....
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Post by lunaalta on Nov 30, 2013 7:05:30 GMT -5
i think, if your playing a guitar often, like every day, the strings will survive better, since and goo/corrosion is getting worked in/off. Plus, you are unlikely to notice the small degradations so much. Until they just suck, of course.
In a shop. well, that's another ball game!
People 'plucking' with the guitar, with all kinds of burger grease/beer/sweat/whatever on their hands. Then it's left to take hold and the corrosion to set in, for however many days/weeks, before the story is repeated. Sadly, can't expect, even a great shop, to change strings every week.
Yeah, climate will have it's due effect on anything metallic.......
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Post by dannyhill on Nov 30, 2013 13:04:27 GMT -5
Yes, strings after I decipher that it is not something worth sending it back about, the bridge, nut and tailpiece will get changed.
BTW I am referring to the sounds not plugged in.
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Post by dannyhill on Dec 1, 2013 14:08:01 GMT -5
Hi guys,
Had the guitar out again today. I set it up so it intonates (same note open as 12th) but the wierdest thing, my open chords still sound out of tune. My barre chords are ok though even in lower positions.
In fact when I used my tuner to check the notes in the first 3-4 frets of each string almost all were sharp - is this the sounds of a badly cut nut?
Cheers,
Danny
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Post by 4real on Dec 1, 2013 17:42:33 GMT -5
Hi guys, Had the guitar out again today. I set it up so it intonates (same note open as 12th) but the wierdest thing, my open chords still sound out of tune. My barre chords are ok though even in lower positions. In fact when I used my tuner to check the notes in the first 3-4 frets of each string almost all were sharp - is this the sounds of a badly cut nut? Cheers, Danny There was discussion on this kind of thing recently. Try this. Put a capo on the first or second fret, tune the guitar. Does this have a similar effect or not. Most likely not. Guitar makers as a rule do not set up guitars or spend the time nd such to file nuts, they just glue them on. They should be just like the 'capo' thing, so if it plays ok with a capo, that isolates the nut as an issue and, likely, a big part of percieved intonation issues as well. These things are not easy things, so perhaps consider a proper pro setup ~ |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2013 2:59:39 GMT -5
A way to assess the nut height, is to fret the note at 3rd fret, and check if the string touches or not the 1st fret. Ideally the string should be a hair higher than the 1st fret. If this happens then your nut is ok, at this string. If its high then it needs lowering. If it is short it needs shimming/new nut. Also check string height, check also neck relief. Excess relief might mean also high string action at the first frets. Take a look at this guide (which is the best i have found on the net) : www.ibanezrules.com/tech/setup/action.htmWhat are your numbers in terms of neck relief, action height at 12th fret, and at the last fret? |
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Post by dannyhill on Dec 2, 2013 11:11:58 GMT -5
Hi there, I do think its the nut, but I do not think it is to do with the height, but the slot heights and widths. Some of the strings seem to be barely in the slots. Both the low and high E have a gap of 0.15mm at the first fret with the 4th fret fretted and the guitar in tune. WRT relief, I have 0.25mm at the 8th fret when I capo at the 1st and fret at the last fret. I will check that again tonight to make sure its at the 8th and not something stupid like the 6th Action height, 2.25mm above bottom of 6th at the 12, 1.75mm for the 1st string. Any lower and I start getting fret out/buzz here and there although this is a 14" radius neck?  ? I just want to make sure the neck isn't twisted (it isn't to my eye at least) or anything else that would make it worth returning (again). Cheers, D |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2013 15:20:43 GMT -5
Bro, i take it you mean 3rd fret and not 4th, right? Your relief seems a little bit on the high side, but pretty standard. Also the string height seems a too high. @12th fret, and 2.0mm and 1.5mm you should barely get any buzz. Imagine with my ibby i have 1.5mm/1.7mm at the 24th fret, with relief at 0.15mm. This translates to smth near 1.0mm at high E @12th fret, with bearable buzz and pretty good sustain.
Look, the instrument is like it is. IMO you gotta do this : INSPECT ITS SOUND. INSPECT ITS SUSTAIN. Do you like them? Do you find any major manufacturing flaws? If the sound satisfies you, and there is no major problem, then keep it. You will set it up as time goes.
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Post by dannyhill on Dec 2, 2013 17:29:06 GMT -5
Nah,4th. At 3rd the gap should be smaller still.
My electric guitars are anywhere between 2 and 1.5 to 2.5 and 2.
There is more tone up there! Although it makes you work more and slows things down. I'm no shredder!
Inotation, but action and relief are fine.
Anyway, I swapped the nut out, cheap plastic, and the neck slot for the nut was cut terribly, gap under nut towards the tuners.
With a little filing (very little) the low E side is snug, the high E needs 2-3 well placed and delicate strokes to get it snug underneath and tight against the fretboard - tomorrow night.
Although the neck slot is not quite right yet and its not glued yet,
The low position fretting is now spot on although which too much fretting pressure, especially on the 5th and 6th string it does go sharp. I hope the snugger fit and being glued in place remedies this.
D
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Post by dannyhill on Dec 3, 2013 19:33:50 GMT -5
(The below have since been modified from last night). OK, slight brain fart. I hadn't realised that the new nut had lowered the action, and of course it was just resting there and not glued. Which might explain why notes fretted along the neck were sharp even when ok at the 12 fret. I did notice however that perhaps I was fretting too hard previously, as well as now. Once a bass player, always a bass player. So its all fine and dandy now, good intonation all the way up the neck across all strings, unless I fret too firmly. In correcting the terrible neck slot for the nut I may have filed too deep on the high E side however(slight lift on the nut height test using the 0.15mm high strip at the 1st fret when capoed at the fourth, the low E which I guess is more important as it swings wider is offers just the slightest drag at 0.15mm). Endeavouring to get a square cavity I filed some fretboard (can't be more than 1mm I would have thought)on the high E side until I finally realised that the part that was actually not square with the nut was the binding, which I may have done when trying to square the vertical part of the slot originally, as the fretboard is square with the back of the nut(I can fill that gap cosmetically with superglue/nut dust). Is this going to be a problem? Once you start fretting this does not matter so I guess this can be corrected by saddle positions? I will measure this again tomorrow,should be 24.75" +0.75" from centre of bridge to nut for low E string and 24.75" +1/8" for the high E. Alternatively it can be just 24.75+0.75" and 25.75" I enclose a photo to see if you can see if the nut is no longer parallel to the frets and/or is too close.  BTW I just noticed that the low E stud of the stop tail piece might be mounted a little too far to the left as we look towards the neck as its bent slightly toward the other stud.  Not worth returning it? I guess worse case scenario is that strings would go out of alignment/angle along the neck as the stud is wound up and down. I guess a bent stud is better screwed down for more resistance to further deformation? More sustain too? D |
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Post by dannyhill on Dec 4, 2013 17:46:50 GMT -5
OK, so this is weird.
For 24.75" scales the first fret is supposed to be located 35.3mm from the nut, give or take 0.3mm, given manufacturing tolerances.
I measured along the 1st string at 35mm, could have been 34.9 and there could be a hairline gap between edge of fretboard and the nut now.
But along 6th string I measured 34.5mm! Now, I'm pretty sure I took nothing off that side, but as I said the nut channel was pretty grim when the guitar arrived.
Should I be worried, or is this potential audible difference in pitch going to get lost in how hard I fret anyway?
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Post by dannyhill on Dec 5, 2013 10:56:28 GMT -5
Just found this:
If you move the nut toward the first fret by, say, 1.0mm, you'll get ~3 cents pitch rise (100/35). If you then drop tune the open string 3 cents back to concert pitch the note on every other fret is 3 cents flat. So the nut compensation effects all fretted notes by a constant amount.
If you move the saddle say 1.0mm, the open string shifts 3 cents in tuning, but the string fretted at the 12th fret will shift twice that amount i.e. 6 cents from however sharp, flat or accurate it played before. So every fret will have a different pitch change for a 1.0mm shift in the saddle position.
I seem to be getting sucked in deeper and deeper.
D
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2013 3:38:41 GMT -5
man, its called : obsessive-psychotic-guitaritis. You gotta play a few catchy tunes to your wife/girl/child/family/mother/friend whatever is available and quit dealing with the freaking mechanics of the thing. Play some nice flamengo and forget about pitch, intonation, bridges, frets, nuts, pups and the like.
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Post by cynical1 on Dec 6, 2013 9:45:48 GMT -5
I seem to be getting sucked in deeper and deeper. You've just experienced the fundamental design limitation of fretted instruments. Intonation is not 100% at every fret. Tailor it for the style you play, IE: rhythm from the 9th fret down, or shredder from the 10th fret up. The term horseshoes, hand grenades and guitar intonation all share the same aspect... HTC1 |
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Post by dannyhill on Dec 6, 2013 16:54:46 GMT -5
True. To be honest, as dumb as it sounds. I never really checked that the guitar intonated all up the neck using a tuner. I just used to check the pitch at the 12th and open/12th harmonic with the tuner and then let my ears do the work, or not.
The BB copy is actually quite nice now, action at 2mm and 1.5mm and could go lower possibly. Lovely open chord sounds, and it does intonate all the way up, unless I press to hard and/or press down at a slight angle - according to the tuner. My ears say?
BTW How much difference in pitch can fretting 1-2mm closer further from the fret in first 5 frets?
Thanks all!
Gonna go shave the ends of its new nut now so it fits the line of the neck. Don't worry I will remove it first :-)
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Post by dannyhill on Dec 8, 2013 4:34:20 GMT -5
Nut-tastic!
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