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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2013 5:03:25 GMT -5
Ok, here it goes. One fret on my ibanez arz800 is slightly higher than the previous and next one. That normally wouldn't be a problem if : 1) this wasn't the 12th fret, high E/B 2) the action wasn't too low.
I tried increasing the action, and i got a fuller/stronger sound. But i didn't get so much better sound in order to justify the poorer playability.
Since i find absolutely no reason to pull out the tools (the guitar is almost perfect), i was wondering about non-invasive/non-penetrating "environmental friendly" (LOL) ways of eating away/wearing out this particular portion of this particular fret.
That got me into the stainless steel vs nickel wound strings. Should i just try stainless steel for some months and give it a "natural" treatment (by playing) around this particular fret?
Would it work?
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Post by newey on Nov 20, 2013 6:36:55 GMT -5
I doubt it would work. It's not just wear that you want, it needs to wear away evenly. Also, I think you'd need a longer timeframe for this to happen, more than a few months- unless you are playing the thing in your sleep as well as every waking hour . . .
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2013 8:11:32 GMT -5
I doubt it would work. It's not just wear that you want, it needs to wear away evenly. Also, I think you'd need a longer timeframe for this to happen, more than a few months- unless you are playing the thing in your sleep as well as every waking hour . . . Hmmm, i guess i'll try it out for a year or so, and see the results. This particular guitar, i suspect, has poor quality fretwire. When i do hard vibrato on any note, and keep it there for some seconds, then i can already feel the contact to get rougher, i can almost hear and feel the friction. I don;t know if that should be attributed to the frets or the (admittedly old) strings. Can't tell. I guess i am gonna try the stainless steel method and try to play extensively on the said fret.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2013 14:10:00 GMT -5
Just did the credit card test, and indeed 13th fret is taller than the 12th at the 3 higher strings. Hmmm i guess some light sanding is to be scheduled. No "natural" wear is going to resolve that, and my tech is miles away.
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Post by ux4484 on Nov 21, 2013 8:15:34 GMT -5
My string changes usually involve some fret polishing with some 0000 steel wool, even on stainless frets, it wouldn't take too much work to bring one down that much, though, you might change the shape of the crown if your not careful.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2013 8:43:52 GMT -5
My string changes usually involve some fret polishing with some 0000 steel wool, even on stainless frets, it wouldn't take too much work to bring one down that much, though, you might change the shape of the crown if your not careful. That would be a good a good idea. (and i was just thinking of grabbing some new strings today ). About leveling, i don't think steel wool would do much for the job. Steel wool is usually used for polishing after having treated with a file or coarse grit sandpaper followed by 400, then 600, then 800 grit sandpapers, and finally applying the steel wool. About re-crowning, a very nice trick i had read in agile guitar forums, was the technique of using sandpaper as a pick across the frets and do it like sweeping. This eats away just the corners, resulting in almost good crown.
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Post by ux4484 on Nov 21, 2013 10:16:46 GMT -5
Was it always that high, or has it "popped", because that's a whole other issue.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2013 11:10:07 GMT -5
Was it always that high, or has it "popped", because that's a whole other issue. good observation. Yes it was always a tad higher, but i gotta do the whole "plastic hammer test" and see if it always was a little bit unseated or if it always was a little bit taller. Anyways, from what i have inspected by eyes and bare hands, it seats rather tight into its slot.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2013 11:26:18 GMT -5
BTW Where is Cyn1? He hasn't shown up as of late.
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Post by 4real on Nov 21, 2013 15:12:22 GMT -5
I always ahve problems if I try these kinds of things , in large part through miss diagnosis.
One would want to double check, if the fret has 'popped up' or the fret/s below have been worn down...
There are significant risks involved as, if you wer down the third fret, often the 4th will now buzz...and so it goes till there are no frets at all!
There are so many aspects to how low one can go without buzzing and getting a strong sound out of the guitar ~ neck curvature / relief being a major part of things, all the different elements interact and can change and can mislead the problem and cause more problems than solutions if messed about with too much.
I don't see any particular need and risks even polishing frets, and I use big heavy bronze strings on small frets. On all my guitars, I have taken to oiling the fretboard and strings with this 'light machine 'cutting' oil. This give things a nice slippery feel, keeps the fretboard and such free from attracting 'dirt' and cleans off any 'grime. I spray it on a paper towel and just clean with string changes. The light oil also coats the strings against corrosion and even 'conditions' the fingers as well as keeping things 'shiny'...
But unless you have a particular fondness for the 2nd fret that its been worn down too much, perhaps the third has 'risen'. There is a 'rocker tool' (see stew mac) for exactly this purpose to identify such problems that one could easily make onself and help judge what might be happening, and significant dangers if one gets it wrong ~ I know caue invariably I do miss something and you can easily make it worse. Wearing off hte crown toois a good point, that can really screw with the intonation and playability in subtle ways ~
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Post by Double Yoi on Nov 21, 2013 20:20:30 GMT -5
I would advise against using machine oil on finished wood as it contains chlorinated oils. Mineral oil, lemon oil, furniture polish, Fast fret..all should give you the same result and not potentially damage your fingerboard.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2013 2:35:21 GMT -5
^^ +1.
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Post by ux4484 on Nov 22, 2013 2:43:39 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure what 4real is talking about is the soapy cooling oil used for machining parts, It has almost the same ingredients as fingerease.
The biggest problem using cutting oil IMO, is it does promote rust if left to sit too long... but I'm thinking Pete checks his guitars pretty often.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2013 8:19:18 GMT -5
Rechecked yesterday night. The fret was right into place. No hammering down would make it going any deeper into the wood. So i just did a better setup, with minimal neck relief : around 0.15mm and string height 1.7mm and 1.5mm at 24th fret on low/high E respectively. Plays almost very good. A good setup would make it even better, but i think it can wait 1-2 years. Today i am going to buy some new strings tho.
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Post by cynical1 on Nov 22, 2013 9:42:30 GMT -5
Sort of late piling in on this...and I'll probably have to add to this if I come off obtuse, but time is short and work calls.
Trying to fix one fret is something akin to trying to fix a wobbly table by sawing one leg at a time. I saw my ex-mother-in-law take a dining room table and turn it into a nice coffee table by the time she got it right.
Long and short of it is attacking one or two frets will not yield the results of leveling and recrowning all of them. If they don't have the meat for the job, a re-fret is not the end of the world. Depending on your style, string gauge, string material and so on, you might be be of those guys that needs to get warm and fuzzy with the task.
Gotta run, gotta catch a train.
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2013 10:36:59 GMT -5
Thanx for your comments Cyn1. Hope you catch that train! BTW, this is the ibby i bought last year. I guess those frets do wear fast
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Post by 4real on Nov 22, 2013 16:53:46 GMT -5
This not the only tool one needs nor approach to a tricky and diffult problem. Going about just fining a fret, as Cyn puts it very well with the table analogy, is just asking for more probelms. The first thing to do is always to understand 'why' something is happing and exactly 'what' the problem is. Assumeing invariably ends up with even bigger multiple problems...
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2013 0:29:43 GMT -5
Just did the credit card test, and indeed 13th fret is taller than the 12th at the 3 higher strings. I explicitly wrote that i did smth equivalent to the fret rocker thing, the also famous "credit card" test, which is very similar in principle with erlewine's fret rocker, but for zero cost (although in the context of a credit card the word "zero cost" would not be the most appropriate !) . Now about Cyn1's opinion on this ending up to a cascading endless dressing of all frets, where each leveling would create the requirement for the next one, well, this might be the case for some ppl. For me not. I remember when i bought my second guitar at the age of 20, a gorgeous Kramer 210, 22 frets, floyd rose, 25.5" scale, with seymour duncan live wires active, this was the loudest thing i had ever heard. Well, at all frets except the 10th fret high E, which was ridiculously low. I had to level all frets from 11 to 22. No crowning, polishing of the sort. By the years the playing "self-polished" the frets, and this guitar still has a sustain that would make many gibsons turn red.
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Post by 4real on Nov 23, 2013 3:22:54 GMT -5
Cool GD, sorry for trying to help ~
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2013 9:04:20 GMT -5
Its all cool, i appreciate the help, but IMO its better to read carefully and acknowledge what the other member writes.
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Post by newey on Nov 23, 2013 9:54:52 GMT -5
Problem with the credit card is there's no guarantee the edge is true and straight. We're dealing with minute fractions here.
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Post by cynical1 on Nov 23, 2013 12:32:46 GMT -5
In all honesty, unless you buy the custom built guitar from a builder that actually takes some pride in his work, every guitar neck has a fretting issue somewhere on the neck.
I have never, in 30+ years, ever seen a guitar come off a rack at a music store and be 100% dead nuts on. Depending on your style, you may never notice these issues, or you just learn to live with them and play around them.
The most painful part of leveling and recrowning frets on a new neck is the cost of the tools required to do it right...if you believe everything StewMac tells you. Unless you plan on doing several necks, or are just really anal about it, it's a toss up on whether to pay a tech to do it, or do it yourself.
If you decide to do this yourself a leveling and recrown is not an impossible mission to accomplish. I've seen techs do it with a simple honing stone, a Sharpie and a couple small files. I tend to take a minimal approach to the arsenal required, but if the specialized tools make it easier for you then go for it.
GD, one thing you may find useful in a refret is to use a lower profile on the higher frets. This will allow for a lower action overall without buzzing.
There is a wealth of information out there on the Internet about refretting, leveling, crowning, profile selection...etc...that I'm not going to go into too much detail here. I will say, if you have a spare neck, or just want to pick up a cheap neck on eBay, practicing will make perfect. Patience is the best asset in leveling and crowning. When I used to do this for a living it was 4 hours for a standard 22 fret neck, and another hour if the neck has binding. The first one you do is always a lot longer. It's never a quick fix and the extra time taken will reflect in the final result.
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2013 0:28:33 GMT -5
Problem with the credit card is there's no guarantee the edge is true and straight. We're dealing with minute fractions here. So true, i was asking the kids if they have any small school ruler made of metal, but they said no.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2013 0:53:48 GMT -5
In all honesty, unless you buy the custom built guitar from a builder that actually takes some pride in his work, every guitar neck has a fretting issue somewhere on the neck. I have never, in 30+ years, ever seen a guitar come off a rack at a music store and be 100% dead nuts on. Depending on your style, you may never notice these issues, or you just learn to live with them and play around them. The most painful part of leveling and recrowning frets on a new neck is the cost of the tools required to do it right...if you believe everything StewMac tells you. Unless you plan on doing several necks, or are just really anal about it, it's a toss up on whether to pay a tech to do it, or do it yourself. If you decide to do this yourself a leveling and recrown is not an impossible mission to accomplish. I've seen techs do it with a simple honing stone, a Sharpie and a couple small files. I tend to take a minimal approach to the arsenal required, but if the specialized tools make it easier for you then go for it. GD, one thing you may find useful in a refret is to use a lower profile on the higher frets. This will allow for a lower action overall without buzzing. There is a wealth of information out there on the Internet about refretting, leveling, crowning, profile selection...etc...that I'm not going to go into too much detail here. I will say, if you have a spare neck, or just want to pick up a cheap neck on eBay, practicing will make perfect. Patience is the best asset in leveling and crowning. When I used to do this for a living it was 4 hours for a standard 22 fret neck, and another hour if the neck has binding. The first one you do is always a lot longer. It's never a quick fix and the extra time taken will reflect in the final result. Happy Trails Cynical One Cyn1 thanx, i guess this has been my experience as well. Guitars off a rack would never be 100% perfect for everyone. I wonder what PLEK would do for those, although the cost of processing a guitar via a PLEK machine would raise its cost at about 200 USD (or roughly EUR). I have read you in another old thread (from 2010??) where you wrote that almost most medium/cheap guitars, even premiums come out of the factory without a proper fret dressing. That must be true. In order to keep the cost down, some cuts must be made. That's why e.g. Fender recommends action height 1.6mm high E, 2.0mm low E 12th @fret, And Ibanez 1.5mm high E, 2.0mm low E @14th fret. At this height chances are the guitar would sound great. But what happens when trying to lower the height is where problems start to show up. I have been in the amateur fret dressing business for quite a long, before i joined the nuts. I had experimented with both my strats, and especially with the partscaster (which i eventually sold). The best method and with the minimal arsenal required that i found on the net is this : www.archive.agileguitarforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=5453 . This particular guitar has a set-in neck, nice color, mahogany, and a delicate nut. It looks so good, and new, (i have it only for 1 year), I wouldn't touch it. I have no experience with "LP"-style nuts. I just wouldn't touch it in a invasive manner. The most extreme would be shielding the cavity and that's all. That's why i asked about non-invasive ways (i.e. choosing a particular brand/gauge of strings) that would help in this regard. But its not critical. The guitar already plays good, has sustain, and a low action. (1.5mm, 1.7mm @24th fret, which translates into smth around 1mm/1.2mm @12th fret). I just can't have : - shredding (->low action) - power down tuned riffs at lower strings (->not so low action) - loud clean blues/jazz bends at higher strings (->higher action) all in one package. A compromise must be made. Its just that sometimes we are greedy and want better and better tone. So, would you think that the use of particular string brand/gauge/playing style would have an effect on this particular fret, if played in some certain fashion?
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