Ever dared to do this?

[strat80hm]

I m about to "dismantle" this "Humbucker-sized" Sustainer Driver, hoping i wont create any mess, so in case anyone did it previously, i wouldnt mind any advice ;-)



The goal is to save real-estate by filling up the "empty coil" with a real pickup (Lace Sensor).

Thanks.

[4real]

I've seen and ahve pics of a sustainiac pulled apart, it was destroyed in the process and meaurements and such made. Not sure fot he measurements either, you know you cant jamb a strat sized SC into a HB as a rule, they are longer and wider than an an HB coil.

Also be aware that you may be significantly haveing to deal with some majhor issues that could effect both technologies in this. if the fernandes is still using the 'bilateral coil' (similar to sustainiacs which they were originally) then there could be magnetic discrepncies between the polarities...magnetic things do not 'turn off' just because they are on, they are affeted by each others magnetic fields.

And of course, just because you can get a SC in there, does not mean that you can use it with the sustainer and that thre could be major bypassing issues. With my sustainers and all others, you cant just 'deselect' the neck pickup, it needs to be completely removed from teh circuits and require some very fancy switching. The reason largely that the commercial systems need power at all times, is because they use electronic switching to handle it and to avoid clicks and pops and such that coudl be enormously loud if through a marshall stak or PA.

So, I'd be real careful, know what you are dealing with and really test that things can fit and have a very solid plan and the skills and ability to pull it off!

Why, do you want to?

[cynical1]

What 4Real said, and remember, once you dismantle the driver\pickup, your warranty vaporizes.

Since the non-driver coil is just a dummy coil it shouldn't make a difference in functionality of said driver. But, as 4Real has pointed out, it'll be an orphan from the sustainer circuit board.

HTC1

[4real]

Nov 30, 2013 4:41:33 GMT -5 cynical1 said:

What 4Real said, and remember, once you dismantle the driver\pickup, your warranty vaporizes.

Since the non-driver coil is just a dummy coil it shouldn't make a difference in functionality of said driver. But, as 4Real has pointed out, it'll be an orphan from the sustainer circuit board.

HTC1

One of the biggest problems with this plan, which is not completely clear as to what you expect is, that the driver and the pickup are going to be extremely inductive together, that's why it's a dummy there and the driver itself is the pickup. That is, the driver is going to induce massive currents in the pickup and this will be problematic.

These currents are the cause of amssive pops and clicks and distortions unless handled properly.

In my design which is a different approach, the neck pup (passive) has to not only be 'deselected' but the grougnd and everytthing, even middle pickups if any, need to be completely taken out of circuit, bth ground and hots. In fact, I tend to take out the entire selector and reconnect the bridge for sustainer operation.

Is it that the transformer for the diver to become a pickup is shot. If so, I do know that someone successfully identified and replaced that part, perhaps it was in the massive original sustainer thread or PG's electronics sub-forum a long while back. It seems to be a prone part. But more economical would be to get an entire replacement circuit, as this is something I beleive is on offer.

The 3 pin connectors are standard parts, couldn't identify them myself, but a lot of searching might find it or certainly something similar, not sure that that is required or why, a good solder jjoin is a lot better IMHO and smaller!

SO I'd be very wary and perhaps explain the 'intention' in wanting to do this.

While my systems do use passive pickups, even a completely passive guitar when sustainer is off, they are very different in many ways, particularly implimentation and were designed specifically to address some of these issues.



As you can see, my driver sits right along side the tele's Snc passive pickup on my guitar. It is a single polarity and so has one magnetic 'pole' so the two fields combine evenly (remember that regardless of being off, permanent magnets will interact at all times!). A 'bi-lateral coil, such as sustainiac's has dual polarities and I'd suspect that kind of driver to have detrimenatl effects on a pickup between string sets due to the dual polarities on one and not the other, so that would be something to test. I am not sure of the fernancdes, it could be a dual blade kind of thing like an HB ~

Regardless, in my guitar extensive switching is required to completely disengage everything bar the bridge pickup while the sustainer is on certainly, and problems tackled with the switch noises and currents. Part of the way the commercial systems have tackled that is to simply be always on, but then the guitar dies if the battery does and these things eat batteries. The other is not to have neck pickups at all and convert the driver to a pickup. Sustainiac though did offer such a system which had space for a compact HB pup next to the driver. I'm not sure if they still do or how they got around things there. A pickup like a Lace sensor is single polarity, a true single coil, and so would expect issues of various kinds.

Sustainer systems are notoriously problematic, so would not approcah this kind of thing naiviely or risk breaking it or ruining it on a quest that could well fail ~

[sumgai]

Low Impedance Strat,

Previously 4real referred to a wiring scheme I did for him some 6 years ago. I don't seem to be finding that exact image just now, so I can link it for you, so I've just re-uploaded it and given it a fresh link:




Truth Table:

1 - N
2 - N + M
3 - N + B
4 - B, with Sustainer powered on
5 - B

Note what 4real says about removing the ground wire from the two unused pickups whilst the Sustainer coil is active, in Position 4.

Also note that this layout is by 4's request, it can be changed around at will. If you'd prefer M + B in the Pos 2, that's an easy swap of just two wires. In fact, you can put the B + Sustainer in any position, but for 4real, it made sense (at the time) to keep Pos 5 as Bridge only, just as one would expect when moving to that posiiton. It's your call to put that selection where you wish, the Superswitch gives you flexibility in that regard.

Sadly, for some folks anyways, this simple setup will not let you have any Series combinations. That becomes apparent when you realize the need to control 3 of the 4 ground connections from one switch pole. Other switches might be introduced to get around that limitation though, should a user desire Series combos.

HTH, and good luck with your Mad Scientist labratory experiment!



sumgai

[4real]

Thanks sum...i remember and appreciated that...it was devised for my strat which still has a stealth 'ultra-thin' coil inside the neck pickup but dont use. This is with a superswitch, being a 4p swich it can handle that kind of thing like the dedicated 4pdt can without ahving to add a switch. Personally in pracice a separate switch is better, as you can use it to switch from whatever the selecor dictates to the sustainer and back like a preset, but requires the additional and somewhat bulky 4pdt and so was never implemented. The harmonic switch required a dpdt and so included into the 'drive' control that takes the place of a strats secondary tone control. If you recall, I ahd been making those 'uber switches' as well to try and cope with a very low mod approach to sustainers with a 'drive pot' (something not offered in commercial sustainers) the harmonic push pull and a 'ring' switch (similar to a car radio) to handle the 4pdt functions into one control.

NOTE However, this only applied to my sustainer design, by trying to adapt commercial units ther are a huge array of unknowns and pitfalls...they are just not designed the same. For a start, they all use electronic swithing I belelieve to handle the switching power required. As such and for the neck driver conversion to a neck pickup and overall preamping, power is required all the time. A major problem with all sustainers as the circuit for a sustainer is primarily a "Power amp' and so chews through a lot of power quickly. I did not feel that the resulting compromises and 'dangers' (battery goes flat and the whle guitar dies) was acceptable. Neither that the guitar would be compromised on design and choice as foar as things like neck pickups, or for a lot of fernnades things, the bridge pickup too. Also, that these things are generallly very large, mine surface mounted in various ways or even incorporated int the pickup and uses it's existing magnetic feild. So it is very much a tricky thing to predict how one might adapt this kind of circuit or what it might requrie as they two sytems and very different in that regard and I simply can not predict what it might do or require or even if the kinds of things that concerned my designs are applicable to what this proposal and circits may need.

[strat80hm]

The reason behind dismantling the Humbucker-sized Sustainer is to make it a SingleCoil-sized Sustainer - they re almost impossible to find on the second-hand market, and cost over US$140 from Fernandez.

- i just have to cleanly severe/remove the dummy-coil
- i can then pair it up with that Lace Sensor.

Since they are of similar dimensions really, and this way they both fit into that bridge pickup routing in the body of my strat.




- i am not planning on using this Lace Sensor along with the Sustainer of course (there s a big hiss when using a Sustainer driver too close) - only as a stand-alone pickup.

- my prototype is currently using the sustainer in the bridge position and this works pretty well.

[perfboardpatcher]

Hi Strat80hm

And did you succeed in dismantling your 2 coil sustainer driver? If so, how did you proceed and what did the "dummy" coil look like? Was it wired in series or in parallel with the driver coil? As a hobby sustainer builder myself I'm interested how the pros build their stuff. (Don't know whether you're still gathering courage or I'm necrobumping but I ask anyway. )

Paul

[strat80hm]

Dec 19, 2015 4:41:20 GMT -5 perfboardpatcher said:

Hi Strat80hm

And did you succeed in dismantling your 2 coil sustainer driver? If so, how did you proceed and what did the "dummy" coil look like? Was it wired in series or in parallel with the driver coil? As a hobby sustainer builder myself I'm interested how the pros build their stuff. (Don't know whether you're still gathering courage or I'm necrobumping but I ask anyway. )

Paul

Hey Paul - thanks for interest - i ended up finding a all-made single-coil-shaped Sustainiac driver and used that.
It works well with the Sustainer circuit - i tried several home-made ones without great result unfortunately.

Regarding the humbucker-sized-driver, it seems simpler than that: apparently the empty coil is just that, empty: there s one coil only, the rest is just hollow.
What are you building?

[perfboardpatcher]

Hi Strat80hm,

And the ones you built were all single coil drivers? And the 2 sustainiac drivers were split coils? (You can test with a magnet, bass and treble side of the drivers have a different polarity.) Just thinking of an explanation.


I hadn't mentioned anything about building, but you guessed it right! I don't want to give away too many details at the moment but, yes, there is a sustainer part involved. I will need some time to assemble and test and then hopefully I will be able to show some results over here.

bye
Paul

[strat80hm]

Dec 21, 2015 14:02:36 GMT -5 perfboardpatcher said:

Hi Strat80hm,

And the ones you built were all single coil drivers? And the 2 sustainiac drivers were split coils? (You can test with a magnet, bass and treble side of the drivers have a different polarity.) Just thinking of an explanation.


I hadn't mentioned anything about building, but you guessed it right! I don't want to give away too many details at the moment but, yes, there is a sustainer part involved. I will need some time to assemble and test and then hopefully I will be able to show some results over here.

bye
Paul

Not sure what your question is:

- the DIY drivers i tried were all single coil yes

- the Sustainiac driver i used is the single-coil-shaped one.

- the Sustainer drivers i have are all humbucker-shaped ones - although they seem to contain only one coil (the second one is hollow)

Good to hear some invention is underways ;-)

[perfboardpatcher]

Dec 21, 2015 17:07:47 GMT -5 strat80hm said:

[
Not sure what your question is:

- the DIY drivers i tried were all single coil yes

- the Sustainiac driver i used is the single-coil-shaped one.

- the Sustainer drivers i have are all humbucker-shaped ones - although they seem to contain only one coil (the second one is hollow)

Good to hear some invention is underways ;-)

Sorry for the poor quality, but I couldn't find some of my pics...
2 pictures of 2 different kind of sustainer drivers I've built. The first one is the one that is installed at the moment. Are your Sustainiac drivers built similar, one blade North, the other South?



Or do the appear to be built like this? (Was my first dual coil driver)




Paul

[strat80hm]

Thanks for the pics and explanation - way clearer indeed.

Did you find specific benefits to the dual-coil and dual-magnet design?

From my experience/understanding, both sustainiac/sustainer drivers, regardless of their outside shape, are just one magnet+coil, and that little added metal part that is supposed to block some E.M interferences.

[perfboardpatcher]

Benefits? Yep, massively. The 2 coils together cancel out the E.M.I. which causes a guitar to squeal. The DIY single coil drivers I tried didn't cut it. They don't allow to apply a lot of gain.

So you're saying that both of your commercial sustainers have single coil drivers that outperform our DIY drivers? And you have checked for different magnetic polarities?

[strat80hm]

Nice perks indeed

Speaking of what s inside a commercial drivers, i found this pic from 4Real (http://music-electronics-forum.com/t1025)


I m no expert unfortunately, hense no result connecting home made driver to commercial circuit

Overall, while i still love sustainers - can really be a lot of fun, especially on stage at loud volume (in addition to natural feedback and sustain) - electromagnetic solution is not the best for my purpose yet!

How does yours go?

[perfboardpatcher]

Jan 9, 2016 18:34:01 GMT -5 strat80hm said:

Nice perks indeed

Speaking of what s inside a commercial drivers, i found this pic from 4Real (http://music-electronics-forum.com/t1025)


I m no expert unfortunately, hense no result connecting home made driver to commercial circuit

That's a split coil driver with 2 coils and 2 magnets. The 2 coils are wired out of phase for E.M.I. which

"... allows almost complete cancellation of the driver's radiated magnetic field that is sensed by the pickup." (David Schwab quotes from patent)
]
Yes, nice perks indeed!
The first step for DIY-ers to improve their home made sustainer is to admit that a single coil driver just isn't the right candidate for the job.

It must be easy for a pickup maker to build a split coil driver, but not so for me! First one has to be lucky to find the right size ceramic bar magnets. Secondly I had to cut and vile all the parts to size and then superglue them together. Especially the superglueing is a dirty job! Making a split coil driver would become a lot easier if there were standard components or semi-finished products available. I was thinking of cutting humbucker bobbins in halve and possibly using alnico rod magnets. Well, that could be inspiration for a new topic.

Jan 9, 2016 18:34:01 GMT -5 strat80hm said:

Overall, while i still love sustainers - can really be a lot of fun, especially on stage at loud volume (in addition to natural feedback and sustain) - electromagnetic solution is not the best for my purpose yet!

How does yours go?

Strat80hm, I totally get it that you prefer the interaction with a loud amp over using a sustainer. Eighties heavy metal?

I got my new sustainer functionally to work but I need some more time to fiddle around with it. (I don't want to drill any holes for extra controls so basically I can only switch the sustainer on and off. In need to work to get less miss and more hit. )


Cheers,
Paul

[strat80hm]

Thanks for improving the DIY method - indeed, double coil out of phase seems to be the way to success

yes 80 s metal brought a lot of fun to the party - although i do mostly play with clean sounds: what i was saying was that i love using a magnetic sustainer IN ADDITION to natural feedback on a very loud stage - gives you a lot of possibilities for fun discoveries.

Acoustic guitar gives you some easy infinite sustain on stage too - though it quickly turns into feedback, takes practice.

What kind of sound are you playing with?

[perfboardpatcher]

If you read this post my smoke signals have been converted into text, strat80hm....

Jan 30, 2016 16:51:41 GMT -5 strat80hm said:

Thanks for improving the DIY method - indeed, double coil out of phase seems to be the way to success

Thank goodness I hadn't to reinvent the wheel! The dual coil driver of the commercial sustainers has always been my point of reference. As every other n00b sustainer builder I started with a single coil design to get the hang of it construction-wise but I've honestly never seen a good explanation why to get stuck with that single coil design forever.

It's kind of funny to see that in topics in which some guys are bickering over the circuitry they don't seem to question whether the driver itself could be improved.

Jan 30, 2016 16:51:41 GMT -5 strat80hm said:

yes 80 s metal brought a lot of fun to the party - although i do mostly play with clean sounds: what i was saying was that i love using a magnetic sustainer IN ADDITION to natural feedback on a very loud stage - gives you a lot of possibilities for fun discoveries.

Acoustic guitar gives you some easy infinite sustain on stage too - though it quickly turns into feedback, takes practice.


What kind of sound are you playing with?

Very interesting to hear that you play the sustainer with a clean sound. But if you say loud you mean with some some valve compression, right?

I guess I could tell you what kind of sustainer sound I'm after.
In the past I've used limiters in my sustainer circuitry to keep the signal as clean as possible. That worked fine, but the sustained note - a single frequency - is pretty dull to hear. Especially in fundamental mode one likes to apply some overdrive to the guitar sound to get a bit more character. Therefor I decided to clip instead of limit the signal that goes to my sustainer power chip.

The benefit is that my sustained note has more of a humming quality to it, the drawback is that in sustainer mode there is always some amount of distortion mixed in with the clean sound.

What I'm after is a good sustained tone coming directly from my guitar. Or to put it in a different way, guitar with sustainer switched on + eq + cabinet simulator = good tone.


Cheers,
Paul