bosox5150
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Post by bosox5150 on Dec 21, 2013 14:19:07 GMT -5
so I did the test with audacity but it doesn't look like yours, it goes above & below for all coils.
look here,
I also did the test with my meter and got a "-" on all coils. I have the coils in series white/red together, the test did not say how to wire them but more than likely I've got it wrong.
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Post by JohnH on Dec 21, 2013 14:44:47 GMT -5
bosox - you cannot do the switching configuration that you show with the 5way switch that you have, its not possible. Your switch has 2poles and to control the pickups as shown would need three poles at least. If you get a super-switch, which has 4 poles, then it is no problem. Its a standard part and commonly available from guitar component suppliers. One extra toggle or push/pull would allow the second set of coil cut functions. From what we now know about your pickups, and if you want to coil cut to the inner coils as shown, you would spin both humbuckers around 180 degrees.
so, do you want to back up from the design Ive been discussing and get a superswitch to get the arrangement that you want? The testing is still valuable and necessary, but If I was you, I would pay for the new switch to get exactly what you want. Or would you like to carry on with the scheme using your current switch and two push/pulls, which will get you the sound options you want, plus more, but not in the same arrangement?
Your meter tests look fine, except that the values look like thousands of Ohms (k) rather than ohms. They confirm the coil colours that Entwistle list. and those values suggest hat your pickups will be quite hot sounding? In the normal humbucker configuration, the total resistance is that of the two coils added, so you will have about 10k at the neck and 12k at the bridge. That s only a very crude clue to their sound, but they seem like they will be quite powerful. It also suggests that the coil-split versions may sound quite good, not too thin, so worth persuing.
On the phase tests (just seen your last post with the traces), there is no amp involved and you connect just to coil pair leads, red/green, or black/white in your case. Wire that straight onto the sound card line-in (it may not work with a mic input - haven't tried), or straight to your meter leads. If your traces were done through an amp, then it would explain the lack of a clear up or down movement, since an amp probably cant convey such a deep low frequency pulse. If you are careful, the digi meter version works quite well, set to your lowest dc volts setting, and just watch for the + or - sign momentarily flashing. Take care that the green lead, or the white lead of the humbuckers is always the one going to ground/negative on the meter, or ground on the pc, to be consistent. then work out which wire colour from the M pup needs to go to ground, and which to hot, to get a pulse in the same direction. J
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bosox5150
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Post by bosox5150 on Dec 21, 2013 15:50:06 GMT -5
I will continue on with your suggestion, I wasn't sure if it may be possible with the 2 push/pulls just engaging the pups I outlined in my last suggested arraignment rather then the original 2 full pallets I had shown.
I did the test with audacity straight to my pc but I wired the pups up in series and selected each pup with my switch. the meter test I did plugged into the amp and got all "-" jumps. The meter switch does read "k" next to the ohms symbol as you stated it looked that way from the readings.
If I'm reading you correctly now to test with audacity I just connect each coil to my line input on the pc directly. I do have only a mic input and a 1/4" to 1/8" cable and I'm not real keen on chopping it so if I just wire each coil 1 at a time to my output jack black to tip- white to shield, then red to tip and green to shield would this work?
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Post by JohnH on Dec 21, 2013 15:59:38 GMT -5
Ok, we'll let's try it like that with your mic input and audacity. You'll see if you get a clear pulse. What you describe is right. If that doesn't work, the meter direct to coil leads will be the way.
If none of that works, all is not lost because we probably know enough except for which way round to wire the m pup. And there's only two options with two wires and you can hear it in the sound
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bosox5150
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Post by bosox5150 on Dec 21, 2013 22:20:49 GMT -5
OK after much fuss I got the mic input on my PC to work, whats interesting is the black/white pair is for a different coil position in the neck than it is in the bridge. However the phase remains the same, it just shows the Entwistle diagram was not for ALL there model pups.
I do realize once I had the proper "up" phase then showing the down was redundant for that coil but I like to be thorough!
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Post by JohnH on Dec 21, 2013 23:26:26 GMT -5
bosox - that's great, very good results!
What you show is consistent with your results comparing magnetic attractions. It also shows that, as suspected, their data on colours for top and bottom coils is consistent in terms of the logo, but that they chose to reverse the placement of N/S coils. Also, we now know that the middle pup should have its white lead towards hot.
diagram on its way...
John
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Post by JohnH on Dec 23, 2013 1:46:42 GMT -5
Bosox - a quick queation:
Do you think it is feasible to re-mount the bridge pickup spun by 180 degrees? If you can , then the coil we want when combining with M, which is currently in the B outer position, can move to the Binner position. This is what you showed as preferred on your diagrams, and it usually sounds better there, since it's is a bit further fram the bridge an so not as shrill sounding.
J
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bosox5150
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Post by bosox5150 on Dec 23, 2013 1:49:29 GMT -5
could you look this over and tell me if it will work? This is slightly different from what you said wouldn't work before John. Basically I re-routed the HB's through the DPDT pots and used the bottom poles to return to the original switch placements. Now the top poles of the DPDT'S would force the respective pups ON in any switch position, however the bottom path would be severed to prevent the pups inputting twice as they would have if I didn't re-route and just split the hot leads.
My concern stems back to what I was asking Newey about earlier and trying to understand how the ground connection on pin 7 would shut down 1 coil but allow the other. In switch positions 2,3 & 4 will this be a problem in my forced on (pots up) scenario?
John I certainly am not trying to undermine you or annoy you with continuing to ask about this scenario. I just want to see If I learned enough from both you and Newey over the past few days to make something along these lines work. I would eventually like to be able to do this myself correctly, after all I have 5 guitars and about 8 sets of pups & I certainly don't want to have to ask every time I decide to try something new!
here is what I've come up with,
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Post by JohnH on Dec 23, 2013 2:53:39 GMT -5
Ok, Im happy to look at your diagram. Its sometimes takes a while to soak up what is happening in a wiring diagram, so I mau not have it straight.
it kooks like you are treating the Bridge and neck switching symmetrically, so what happens for one will also apply to the other.
With the switches both pushed in, I can see that you get the red selections. When you pull the yellow, red/white goes to output it seems you get a single coil sound from the neck, in all five switch positions? Doesn't seem what you8 intend
the thing I think is not possible is to be able to so set the switches in one way, to get the full sweep of five positions, with all the colours, just using the 5 way. Once you turn B or N on with the push pull, it would tend to be on in all positions
It would be possible to have the red selections as the default settings, have one switch for neck and another for bridge. each one forces the respective pickup on, as a full humbucker, together with what ever else the 5 way says. That would work, and those two such switches might be preferable to you than what I was suggesting with a both coil cut, and a neck on. Much the same options available overall.
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bosox5150
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Post by bosox5150 on Dec 23, 2013 17:24:14 GMT -5
Red/White does go to output with pot pulled as does the black conductor on the other side (opposite pole) of the switch, the yellow pot houses the neck wires and the blue has the bridge wires.
what you said at the end where what could be done is 1 pot switches on the neck & 1 the bridge is what I was going for. I realize this would happen in any position but that's ok, would I get a full HB though is positions 2 and 4 where if the switches where down normally it would be a single coil mode from the neck in position 2 and position 4 would be single coil bridge. Whatever causes this single coil mode with the DPDT'S not involved, would that still effect the pup in those positions with my pots pulled up?
Another question and I didn't take this into consideration before, now knowing the necks ''north/top" coil is black-white and the "south/bottom" coil is red/green the normal series wiring was red/white twisted together, however for the bridge coils being reversed- "top coil" is red/green (is this still the "north coil" ?) and "bottom coil" is black/red, does that change my series wires to green/black being twisted together or does the red/white still stay the twisted pair? I CHANGED THE ABOVE DIAGRAM TO SHOW GREEN/BLACK AS MY SERIES PAIR.
here is the original drawing without DPDT pots if it helps to understand the"normal" flow,
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Post by JohnH on Dec 23, 2013 20:02:54 GMT -5
OK! On that last base diagram (DiMarzio), the coil cutting is done by the right side of the 5-way, with the 1st and 3rd lugs being connected to the grounded second lug, when in positions 2 and 4. This action doesn't use the common pole on that side, but uses the property of a strat switch whereby the lugs connect to each other in the 2 and 4 positions, which usualyl are used to select B+M and M+N (as they do here, on the left side).
So, with the new 'neck(or bridge) on and kill the coil cutting' switches that you will have, one side of the switch will take the hottest lugs to output to force the pickup on, and the other will disconnect the wires that go towards the right side of the 5 way, so that coil cutting wont happen. Not too hard! Just need to rework the colours again for your pickup set.
will you have a go at that?
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Post by JohnH on Dec 24, 2013 19:08:04 GMT -5
Anyone? I'm really anxious to get this thing wired, ANYONE have any insight on what I'm trying to do?? If its not clear, I will sketch a new diagram tomorrow. Off to 'family' xmas today (actually, I'd rather be doing guitar wiring!)
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bosox5150
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Post by bosox5150 on Dec 24, 2013 23:18:51 GMT -5
O SORRY I didn't see the 3rd page with your post today!
yes I actually already changed the colors around on the diagram. I changed the bridge from using the red/white twisted as my series connection to the green/black twisted together. that is the correct way is it not?
I guess im not explaining my concern on how just the bottom coil is going to work in position 2 , to me it looks like the top coil is the one that would be on. Newey took a crack at explaining this also but I believe he had said it would be the top that turned on also which clearly is not what the red shaded selections showed for that position.
here position 2, how does this let the bottom coil of the neck work, yellow traces on white/green. the red shaded coils show the bottom neck coil in position 2???
the truth is this is what is happening right? its actually the first one that makes the bottom one work and shuts down the bottom coil isn't it??,
Once I have these answers I can explain more about my concern for my diagram and also know if I'm proceeding correctly. I would love to wrap this up soon, I didn't expect to have my guitar apart on my coffee table for 5 days!
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Post by JohnH on Dec 25, 2013 4:17:56 GMT -5
We cant relate top and bottom Entwistle coils to the north and south coil colours used by DiMarzio. Its too confusing when we are trying to think of the Entwistle pickups which define colours by Top/Bottom. While other makes use North/South or slug/screw.
But the principle is, you will see how the right side of the switch shunts the joined series connection to ground in position 2. That bypasses the coil that also has its other end to ground, so that the other coil that has a lead directly towards hot is active.
The wire colours for a diagram should be based on what we know about the polarities and phase. As you note, we need at the Bridge, to connect green to black, red goes towards hot - and when green/black is shunted to ground we will get the red/green coil active. At the neck, we join the red to white, put black towards hot, shunting red/white will make the Black/white coil active.
These active coils are the correct ones to humcancel with middle, but they are the outer coils and if we also want them to be the inner coils per the diagrams, you need to physically rotate the pickups by 180 degrees. that is why I have been asking whether this is possible to do. Is it?
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bosox5150
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Post by bosox5150 on Dec 25, 2013 11:14:05 GMT -5
To answer your question, yes I can rotate the coils the leads are long enough. I've always soldered and extended short leads then used heat shrink on the joints, is that not ok?
So the fact that the wiring for the Dimarzios shunts the north coil doesn't mean its the top coil as I continue to assume it does. Ok I FINALLY get that. Now my concern was that even with pots pulled in switch positions 2&4 would the shunt still exist but NO because the poles will have disconnected that path to the shunt and use the other pins which are direct to pots input. So my diagram is correct as is except flip the coils to make it the bottom coils that are on.
I read that like you said its preferable to have the screw/slug coil on but many say you would be hard pressed to hear a difference if it where on top or bottom, so long as it was the screw or slug coil. I'd rather not rotate them and have the logos upside down, I realize function should come before aesthetics but is the sound noticeable if its the right coil but on top or bottom?
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Post by JohnH on Dec 25, 2013 14:20:59 GMT -5
I've played around a bit with that question, and I found at the neck there is no difference that I could tell between the sound of each individual coil due to its placement. At the bridge, the inner coil on its own sounds less trebly than the outer coil, which is relatively nearer to the end of the string. But that is much less of an issue when in a combination.
But your scheme is heading towards not having the single coil options on their own, but only in combination with others. Coils closer together or further apart, as a pair, sound a bit different, but would still have much the same character. And it would not be obvious that, if combining say M, with B'inner' or B'outer' one will sound better necessarily.
So maybe keep the pickups mounted as they are, and the coil cut pairs go to outer coils?
Diagram is nearly finished, will post shortly J
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bosox5150
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Post by bosox5150 on Dec 25, 2013 14:30:17 GMT -5
that sounds fine, I will set it up with outer coils now and perhaps flip em' later on to see myself the difference in sound. I don't really care for the trebly sound you describe with single pairs further apart so perhaps I will rotate the bridge. With my pots down I will have the m coil in position 3 as a single coil by itself though, right? I will wait for your diagram, Thanks.
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Post by JohnH on Dec 25, 2013 15:14:11 GMT -5
Right - Here it is!:
A few things to note:
Pickups are shown in non-rotated position. Switches pushed in, you get the red selections. Pull the pots out to stop them being coil cut and force them to be on. Grounding is to the switches rather than the pot backs. Usually push/pull pots have a handy lug at the back of eth switch that is easy to solder too. Also added treble-bleed to the volume pot, which is optional (I put this an all my guitars)
I hope that does what you are after, happy Xmas! cheers John
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bosox5150
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Post by bosox5150 on Dec 25, 2013 23:25:48 GMT -5
question, you have the necks black lead splitting to pin 3 and the push/pull pole where I had re-routed to the pot 1st then used the down position pins to go to switch pin 3 so if you are in switch position 1 or 2 that normally has the neck HB active and you pull the pot out you would not have 2 paths for that pup active. Is that a problem the way you have it? In other words if you follow the black lead it inputs pin 3 and outputs pin 4 to volume pot, green goes to volume pot side and red white twisted together ( a normal series config) now pull the pot up (the one for neck) and this original path does not disengage but now the forced on path is also active. is this ok? it would happen for the bridge as well in switch positions 4 & 5.
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Post by newey on Dec 26, 2013 0:05:37 GMT -5
The two paths to output are not an issue, it's just a duplicate connection.
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Post by JohnH on Dec 26, 2013 1:45:01 GMT -5
The two paths to output are not an issue, it's just a duplicate connection. yes it's Ok J
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bosox5150
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Post by bosox5150 on Dec 26, 2013 15:29:00 GMT -5
COOL, Thanks a lot guys. I've learned a lot in general and feel more equipped for this and future changes I decide to make. I'll let you know how it sounds once wired up!
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Post by JohnH on Dec 26, 2013 15:33:08 GMT -5
COOL, Thanks a lot guys. I've learned a lot in general and feel more equipped for this and future changes I decide to make. I'll let you know how it sounds once wired up! You are welcome, good luck with it! J
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bosox5150
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Post by bosox5150 on Dec 26, 2013 23:19:22 GMT -5
all wired up, sounds great (to me anyway). I re-did a phase test afterwards to ensure all was well and it is, coils are on/off when they should be and all phases shot upward as they should! Thanks, again and merry x-mas. Oh and I really like the Entwistles, out of about 8 sets of pups there my 2nd favorite only just behind my active EMG James Hetfield set.
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Post by JohnH on Dec 27, 2013 2:24:57 GMT -5
That's great news! And it was so much better to get all that testing squared away first, so it all just works as it should! J
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