HSH 4 pole s/switch and 4 pole rotary - please check?

[ubertech]

Hi Guys

Ive been racking my brain for a while on this, but I reckon its easy for you guys

I have an old HSH Nighthawk and I want to have a simple F, F+M, F+B, M+B, B superswitch and a chickenhead (class!) rotary for Series/Parallel/Phase and I think I have it, please could you check it for me.

My only concern is that because both pickups are out of phase, they actually are both in phase in the centre position, which is a duplicate of the series F+B

Any variations or improvements would be welcome - sorry no schematic, just a poor paintshop

Attachments:

[newey]

ubertech-

Hello and welcome to G-Nutz2!

My only concern is that because both pickups are out of phase, they actually are both in phase in the centre position, which is a duplicate of the series F+B

I have other concerns. It may simply be that you have misspoken about what you want the rotary switch to be doing, but before I start checking this out, I need some clarification.

First, your stated goal for the rotary is to have series/parallel/phase switching of the 2 HBs. However, you diagram shows one end of each HB attached to ground. Series wiring is not possible if both pickups are permanently grounded at one end; the ground of one has to be switched for series wiring to work.

OTOH, you mention nothing about coil splitting the 2 HBs, yet your diagram shows the yellow/green series junction of each HB wired to the rotary. So it looks like coil splitting is going on, rather than series. Either the diagram is wrong, or your description of the switch positions is wrong.

Did you mean to say that the rotary would split the HBs to SC operation, rather than putting them in series? Please clarify this and I'll look further at the diagram, but there's not much point in doing so until we know exactly what this is intended to do.

[ashcatlt]

Neither can you have phase flipping with both pickups permanently connected to "ground". That diagram doesn't even come close to matching the text description.

There's a couple of issues here, and I think we need to all get on the same page as to what you actually want to achieve.

Answer these questions:
1) What do you mean when you say series? Are we talking about system (inter-pickup) series, where the one pickup runs through the other? Or are you looking to rewire each humbucker so that their coils are in parallel with each other, what we call local, or intra-pickup series?

2) What do you mean when you say phase?

To answer your question, no. If both pickups are reversed in phase at the same time there will be no audible difference. If you do hear a difference, I've got some beautiful vintage aged and burned in high gauge speaker wire that comes in an attractive bright orange. I can let you have it at a steal, since your a Nut! So, yeah, there has to be a difference in phase between two pickups in order for there to be a noticeable difference. Everything is relative.

But then how are you gonna connect the pickups once you've got one out of phase compared to the other? The can go in series or in parallel. The Parallel Out of Phase has the acronym POoP, and many around here think there is good reason for that. Basically, it is weak and thin and (with SCs at least) noisy. The Series Out of Phase is SOoP, like a sooped up coop. That is, it's noticeably louder than the POoP, and not quite so harsh.


My very strong suggestion for this scenario would be to answer 1) with system and 2) with SOoP and wire the rotary as what we call a "series override". Neither of the options there mean anything except in the one position where the two pickups are connected together. So use the rotary to override the 5-way and just slap the two pickups into the configuration that you want. The positions of the rotary would then be: 5-way standard parallel, F*B, F*(-B). At this point you can use that Superswitch for another project and just slap in whatever Strat style switch you have lying around. While I haven't tried to draw it out, I'll eat my hat if you can't make it happen in four poles of the rotary.

And now I'm going to go make myself a bacon hat!


Edit - And now I'm going to (gently) slap you for this F and B business. Around here we talk about necks and mids and bridges. To me, the front of the guitar is the side with the strings on it, and the back is the part with the buckle rash. And then your diagram has it labeled as the Rear pickup...

[ubertech]

Mar 28, 2014 17:42:32 GMT -5 newey said:

ubertech-

OTOH, you mention nothing about coil splitting the 2 HBs, yet your diagram shows the yellow/green series junction of each HB wired to the rotary. So it looks like coil splitting is going on, rather than series. Either the diagram is wrong, or your description of the switch positions is wrong.

Did you mean to say that the rotary would split the HBs to SC operation, rather than putting them in series? Please clarify this and I'll look further at the diagram, but there's not much point in doing so until we know exactly what this is intended to do.

---

Hi Guys, thanks for the welcome and the points - I can see I am way off.

I think I need to clarify: It is the scheme that I am after (or something similar); so the diagram AND my description AND my knowledge of coil relationships are wrong . Also, at the moment I am not using this layout - I was just trying to work it out as a solution to my needs, so it is completely untested and unheard. And it seems I must also apologise for incorrect language - I will repent 


The logic behind the rotary is:

• position 1: 'full' humbuckers in Neck and bridge with Mid SC - I think this would be local, or intra-pickup series(?). So like an SG with extras
• position 2: 'thin' HBs but still humcancelling - i think this is parallel (?) -  along with the Mid SC, I am trying for a Tele/strat emulation in this position
• position 3: Out of Phase to try and get some of that Brian May honk, or thin reedy english clang (joy division/cure/banshees) - if possible still hum cancelling. Obviously I was struggling to get all pickup positions out of phase.

The superswitch seemed like the easiest way to get the strat/tele/sg possibilities which come from N, N*M, N*B, M*B, B - but I realise that I was only using 3 poles on the diagram, that is due to ignorance and I couldn't think of another way to do it. And because I have it (and no other project) I would like to use it if possible.

The main idea is to have a simple Main switch (I vote super switch) for pickup selection, and the other switch to modify the tone from each pickup combonation, in a simple logical manner and the holy grail of having no duplicates or dead spots.


The moral i guess is not to post an untested diagram to experts...based on the above, please can you help? I realise I will have to bin this diagram and start over. I have drawn out the current arrangement for the nighthawk below for you to see where I got to before version 3 - It works and  there is some tonal difference from the rotary but I wouldn't say phasey thin from position 3 - but it is clear from the diagram that I don't know what I am doing, but I am a very nice person and would like to learn.

Attachments:

[newey]

First off, to ashcatlt:

At this point you can use that Superswitch for another project and just slap in whatever Strat style switch you have lying around.

No, because uber wants non-standard positions on the 5-way switch, including N + B at position 3, so he'll need a Superswitch in any event.

Now, to uber:

Note that I am going to write very precisely from here on out, as I want to be sure we're all on the same page. If I'm repeating obvious things that you already know, I apologize in advance.

First, I'm also going to (further) gently slap you for terminology.

The vast majority of guitars, including Strats, Teles, SGs and LPs, have their pickups combined in parallel, not series. There are a few oddball guitars from the '60s with series wiring, and Brian May's guitars famously used series wiring, but 99% of all guitars you'll ever see combine their pickups in parallel.

Our convention here is to use a "+" sign to designate the parallel connection of two things, and to use a "*" (or an "x" symbol) to mean a series connection. Your diagram uses a "*" when you really mean "+".

Now, a word about the wiring of HBs. Originally, when invented in the 1950s, HBs had only 2 wires. The 2 coils were wired together internally in series The coils hum-cancelled because one coils was wound in the opposite direction, and was of reverse magnetic polarity with respect to the other coil. We call this "reverse wound, reverse polarity" ("RWRP"). Thus, every HB has a "North" coil and a "South" coil, although there is no uniformity among manufacturers as to which is which.

With the original HBs, there was only one way to wire them, unless one dismembered the pickup so as to get access to that internal series connection between the 2 coils.

More modern HBs, like yours, have 4 wires. This allows each coil to be wired independently. If one wants a series connection of the 2 coils, the two middle wires (which would have been internally connected in the old HBs) are simply twisted together. Your diagram shows these as green and yellow, although I suspect the yellow wire is probably actually white.

Ignoring the possibility of combining the 2 coils OOP (which you do not want to do), ther are 4 possible ways to wire a 4-wire HB:

1) Both coils can be wired together in series, the so-called "full HB" sound. This will be hum-cancelling.

2) Both coils can be wired in parallel, which we'll call the "parallel HB" sound. This will also be hum-cancelling. It sounds a bit brighter and a bit thinner than a series HB, but does not, to my ears anyway, sound like a Strat or Tele single-coil pickup.

3) The pickup can be wired with the North coil operating and the South coil off, a so-called "coil split" wiring. This will (sort of) sound like a Strat or Tele SC pickup.

4) The pickup can be wired with the South coil operating and the North coil off, another "coil split" wiring.

Either #3 or #4 above will not be hum-cancelling when operating by itself. When combined with another SC pickup, it may or may not be hum-cancelling, depending on the coils involved. To get hum-cancelling, we need a combo of one N coil with another S coil. Combos of two N coils or two S coils will not be hum-cancelling.

Now, on to your diagram:

Your Superswitch is wired correctly to give the settings you want (in parallel, as discussed above).

Your rotary switch is not wired for parallel HB. It is wired for series HBs at position 1. It is wired for some coil splitting at both positions 2 and 3. It is not wired so as to give any OOP settings.

I cannot tell which coils are being split in the coil-split settings without knowing the color code for the specific pickups you are using. We also don't know N versus S without this information. This issue is simplified if both pickups are from the same maker.

If you are hearing some changes with the rotary, as you indicate, it's because you are splitting the coils of the HBs (or at least, one of them- see below). If you want to get at some (sort of) Strat and Tele sounds, then coil-splitting is what you want to be doing anyway, not parallel HB wiring, as you have designated it on the diagram.

Another issue is that your two HBs are not wired to the rotary switch in the same way. Your bridge pickup goes to the rotary switch first, and then from the rotary to the Superswitch, while the neck pickup goes first to the Superswitch, and then to the rotary. But, before we can go any further with this, we still have some unanswered questions with respect to the rotary switch.

For position 1 of the rotary, if you want series HBs at this position, your wiring is good to go.

For position 2, if you really want coil cuts (and not parallel HBs as stated), then we need to zero in on the wiring colors and pickups to be sure that we select the correct coils for hum-cancelling.

For position 3, if you want OOP settings there, we'll need to completely rewire your diagram. As ash noted, SOOP is preferable, but since your 5-way switch is all wired in parallel, if we just use the rotary to switch one pickup OOP, you won't get that, you'll have POOP.

We may, however, as he noted, be able to override the 5-way at position 3, so that when you switched the rotary to position 3, you'd always have the neck and bridge HBs in series, OOP (i.e., SOOP), regardless of the position of the 5-way switch.

So, we're back to the question of what you want the rotary to do, in view of the above discussion?

[ubertech]

._That is some brilliant information - while you were giving me all that I was examining this thread guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/6164/wiring-super-switch-push-pull?page=2 

there is a lot of information on there and some really clever wiring. I think I understand it a little more and have used a ReTreAd design as a start point to the 5-way, which has clearly made me need to revise the whole scheme. So please could we start from what I have put together from this diagram here - It seems more relevant to use a 5-way scheme that is GTG. The original schematic had two push/pulls for the options so I had a go at rewiring those for the rotary, but based on what you know already there's no guarantee that I have wired it correctly.

ok so adding in what you have told me (very clearly - thankyou and based on the 5-way from ReTreAd's design

Is it possible to wire the rotary for:

• Position 1 - Parallel HB sound
• Position 2 - Coil split, hopefully to give that thinner tele/strat; not hum cancelling except in some positions (unless that is possible)
• Position 3 - SOOP, though I like the overide idea, I just dont want to loose the 5 way in this position too much

I have stuck to the Dimarzio colours on the diagram, as my NHB is a Seymour Duncan SM1 mini humbucker and the remaining are the original Nighthawk OBL (Bill Lawrence) pickups - I will replace the bridge as I go but its a slant HB design that may have to also be an SD. In all discussions stick to the Dimarzio colours of the Diagram and I will translate later before I hook it all together.

I am happy to rewire any of the diagram - it is definitely not precious

Thanks for all the detail - it is definitely appreciated


pickup colour codes link inc Bill Lawrence: www.guitarelectronics.com/category/wiring_resources_guitar_wiring_diagrams.humbucker_wiring_color_codes/

[sumgai]

ubertech,

First: Hi, and to the NutzHouse!

I can see that you are not easily dissuaded from your desires - good for you.   Jumping in with both hob-nailed boots pointed squarely at your goals is always worth the price of admission to The NutHouse, and I think yer gonna fit in here just fine.

That said, I'd like to caution you that while many players can and do achieve their goals without the slightest clue as to how they did it, many more are not as satisfied as they could've been, had they taken a bit more care in their approach to the solution. What am I getting at? Just this....

I'm sure that by now you've percieved that we aren't just brilliant thinkers here, but also pretty thorough in divining an understanding of what's really going on under the hood. One of those aspects we like to take into consideration is what I call "playability". In other words, can the switching scheme be used without issues during one's performance of a song/tune. That concept has a pair of sub-categories: on-stage; and in the bedroom. For our purposes here, on-stage means live, in front of a paying audience, and bedroom means all other venues... places where it doesn't matter if you stop for a moment to make a change, or if you simply flub it, and need time to recover.

To me, and I'm not alone in this, on-stage means that your scheme should be as simple as possible (so that you can remember it in the heat of the moment!), and that you can go from one sound/tonality to another with an extreme minimum of screwing around. After all, there's a reason you're up on stage, and not to be over-bearing, but it's to entertain people with the performance of a piece of music, not to mess with the heads of the few fellow guitarists in the crowd by showing off a fancy bunch of switches.

So now that I've also dumped on you, let me sorta back up.... in general, you can have just about anything you want. There are some exceptions, but not many, to be sure. But when you state "I just don't want to loose the 5-way while [the rotary is in Pos. 3]", that's foregoing the principles I laid out in the previous two paragraphs. Think on this: you have a 3 position switch and a 5 position switch on hand - that's at least 15 possible tonal combinations, eh? You already haven't given us more than a dozen or so "desired" combos, so I gotta ask you - which ones are acceptably redundant? Or have you got a few more up your sleeve that'll pop out in due time?

Now do you see where I'm coming from, in terms of playability and simplicity? Basically, it's OK to have on-board only those combos that sound good to you, and that you'll use 95% of the time. And it's also OK to have way more possible sounds/combos than you'll ever need outside of a recording studio, nobody's gonna fault you for that one. But mixing the two, that's gonna take some cogitation, or so we like to think here in The NutzHouse.

Me, I'm cool with whatever you want. Some of the other Nutz have kept you busy with learning new terminology, new concepts, doing yer homework, and you've come back every time with nary a whine - our collective hat is off to ya! But just as a fair warning, JohnH is gonna weigh in pretty soon, and then you're gonna need some breathing room, because he's not gonna let you off the hook that easily!   And my Gawd have mercy on your soul if asmith chimes in, because nothing turns him on more than coloring outside of the lines, so to speak! Trust me on that one!

OK, enough for now, it's yer move, me bucko....

HTH






sumgai

[newey]

Is it possible to wire the rotary for:

Position 1 - Parallel HB sound
Position 2 - Coil split, hopefully to give that thinner tele/strat; not hum cancelling except in some positions (unless that is possible)
Position 3 - SOOP, though I like the overide idea, I just dont want to loose the 5 way in this position too much.

The short answer to all this is that, yes, it's possible with some provisos. First, you'll never have the HBs as regular "Full" HBs, since there's no series HB setting. If you prefer the HBs to be only in parallel (or coil cut, or OOP), then this is certainly doable.

At Position 2, coil cut is possible. This will cut both pickups simultaneously to SCs, and when so cut, you will have the 5 selections on your five-way, with SC N and B pickups at all settings.

The coils can be arranged so as to maximize hum cancelling. If you are using pickups from different manufacturers, you should check for N and S polarities, as described in that thread to which you linked. (You must also translate the wire colors as well, and since I see several iterations of this drawing likely to be ahead, I think you might as well do it using the correct colors for the pickups you have from the start.)

At position 3, we'll be wiring the N and B HBs together via the rotary switch. There's really no way to keep the 5-way in the mix when we do series OOP. Any arrangement whereby the 5-way would switch between other OOP modes, besides the N and B, will necessarily be in parallel. Now, as ash noted, series OOP will sound much more robust than parallel OOP, but if you want parallel OOP settings on the 5-way you can certainly have them. But it's one or the other, you can't have both OOP selections on the 5-way and also have series OOP of N and B as well.

[ubertech]

Mar 29, 2014 13:26:46 GMT -5 sumgai said:

So now that I've also dumped on you, let me sorta back up.... in general, you can have just about anything you want. There are some exceptions, but not many, to be sure. But when you state "I just don't want to loose the 5-way while [the rotary is in Pos. 3]", that's foregoing the principles I laid out in the previous two paragraphs. Think on this: you have a 3 position switch and a 5 position switch on hand - that's at least 15 possible tonal combinations, eh? You already haven't given us more than a dozen or so "desired" combos, so I gotta ask you - which ones are acceptably redundant? Or have you got a few more up your sleeve that'll pop out in due time?

You're entirely right of course I am only interested in the full 5 way version of the SOOP position if there is variation and interest there, so if there is merit in N, N/B, N/M, B/M, B all being SOoP thenthat would be very useful if they are different; but if they are the same then a 'phase over-ride' in position 3 would be the most logical choice.


The thing is, I dont know what the 5-way version would sound like, which is why I was reticent to loose the choice. However, I am quite happy to bow down to the wisdom of the site and take the advice and suggestions going for position 3.


I hope this explains my position and you can come up with a suitable solution for position 3


UT

[ubertech]

Hi All

Bearing in mind what you have all said I think there are two options and I just need a little more info before I decide which to persue

Both have the 5-way option to pick N, N/B, N/M, M/B, B as per ReTreAd's design above. I assume that the orientation of selections (rather than my 'strat' N, N/M, N/B, M/B, B version) is for some ease of moving between useful sounds.

This plus the Rotary

OPTION1:-
Position 1: Series HB
Position 2: Parallel HB
Position 3: Phase override

OPTION2:-
Position 1: Series HB
Position 2: Coil split HB
Position 3: Phase override

OPTION3:-
Position 1: Parallel HB
Position 2: Coil split HB
Position 3: Phase override

From the posts above they would all seem doable, so I would value opinion as to which is the most useful (to me) of position 1 and 2, as I really like the tele/strat hollow sound and Pearl Jam/ACDC 'gibson' sound but I am unsure which of the options get me closest to it. 

If you can advise then I will firm up, and then need a huge amount of help to get it down lol - I am definately the weakest link here

[JohnH]

Just catching up on this thread.

btw ubertech - questions and intentions such as yours are the lifeblood of this forum. If not for them, there would be no need to develop new ideas.

The last diagram that you posted is based on one on mine, so I have some perspective on it. The idea there was to take a set of HSH pickups, which has a total of 5 coils, and use the superswitch to pick just two of those coils, and then use further switches to select just one of those two, or put them in series or parallel. This was done using two toggles or push pulls. The same could be done with a rotary switch, if all intended settings can be achieved just with two coils. ie, you can get the full bridge or neck humbuckers happening, but neck and bridge combos are just one coil from each, which is actually quite a good sound, but it doesn't combine full neck with full bridge.

All of this was just based on a personal observation/opinion that I think the clearest sounds come when there are just one or two active coils, and that HSH, or HHH could have so many possibilities if you try to find them, that you have to make some simplification, and that was what I did.

Heres another basis which could suit what you want, the Strat SP:

Strat SP

It's for SSS, and is based on taking pairs of pickups, offering N, NM, NB, BM, B, then putting the combos into series or parallel with a switch, and phased with another switch. There is also a knob that I called 'fade', which is series combos, fades down one of the selected pickups. For HSH, you could replace the 'fade' with a rotary - a 4p3t (or keep it and add a rotary). This rotary would take both of your humbuckers and offer, locally to each one, series, parallel and single coil. Keep the phase switch as the separate push/pull as shown.

That would add up to more than you have wanted, and the wiring would be a rats-nest, but it is putting together two ideas that we know both work, and if you choose not to mess with the switches, you have a good number of quick moves on the 5way, because you can always get back to a pure bridge or neck pickup.

ps - just a further thing - its a Nighthawk, semi hollow isn't it? Do you have easy access to the wiring? Wouldn't want to suggest feeding all this through f-holes etc!

[ubertech]

Hi Guys 

John H has just taken a great mixing spoon and swizzled up the mess in my brain! His Strat SP design (above) is brilliant and seems to give more than I asked for - though it may end up too much to handle based on sumgai's comment about use-ability 

It's for SSS, and is based on taking pairs of pickups, offering N, NM, NB, BM, B, then putting the combos into series or parallel with a switch, and phased with another switch. There is also a knob that I called 'fade', which is series combos, fades down one of the selected pickups. For HSH, you could replace the 'fade' with a rotary - a 4p3t (or keep it and add a rotary). This rotary would take both of your humbuckers and offer, locally to each one, series, parallel and single coil. Keep the phase switch as the separate push/pull as shown.

Universal phase switch: Usually, only one pickup can be reversed by a normal phase switch, so the combos that do not use that pickup do not get phased. But in this case, all three combos can be reverse-phased, in series or parallel modes.
                                                                                                                                guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/5380/strat-sp

The way that I interpret your comment JohnH, is set up the 5 way for the Single coils for N, NM, NB, BM, B. Then using the rotary to switch to configure series 'fade'/parallel/split coil combos (position 1, 2 and 3). I would need an additional phase switch to incorporate the Universal phase idea - is this all correct?

Its an amazing HSH idea and gives loads of options, the only part I am stuck with is what the circuit would look like . I cant even begin to see how the coils would switch in an out for the parallel - please can you give me a start on how the additional coils would switch in to the rotary? please please please...

Also before I get too carried away with this would an alternative for the rotary be: series 'fade'/split-coil/universal phase? 

ps - just a further thing - its a Nighthawk, semi hollow isn't it? Do you have easy access to the wiring? Wouldn't want to suggest feeding all this through f-holes etc!

No problem here - the Beautiful Blueshawk was the semi hollow with P90s and oh would I love one of those. My Epi Night hawk was a solid small bodied LP shape with a bolt on neck and 25" scale - pretty much a HSH tele from gibson lol! Interestingly the re-issues have set necks and have lost some of the quirks of the earlier ones apparently


I am now genuinely excited that this all may be possible

As a first step I have replaced the two switch system in the SP Strat for the rotary, just to check my signal flow. Please let me know if this is correct - I still have no idea how to switch in the extra two coils yet, but little steps...

Attachments:

[JohnH]

Hi ubertech - I'm glad that is of interest, and I didn't explain fully what I had in mind

The SP design takes three pickups, each with two wires, and does what it does with them, in pairs or singles, with series or parallel combinations between the pickups, reversing phase, and fading down one coil.

You could wire it directly from the diagram with humbuckers instead of singles, and it would do all that combining the humbuckers.

But what I had in mind for the extra rotary, would go between the Humbuckers and the rest of the diagram, For each humbucker, it would take its four wires as input, and provide two output wires to go into the SP diagram. It would do local series or parallel between the coils of each humbucker or single coil, for each pickup. So you would have two levels of series/parallel wiring, one is between the two coils of each humbucker, and the other is between overall pickups.

The way the rotary works, would have four poles, two poles each dedicated to each humbucker. We often use two pole toggle switches with three positions, to take a humbucker and provide series/single/parallel wiring. This rotary would do the same for both humbuckers at once.

[newey]

ubertech-

JohnH has led you down this path, so if you're going to take it, he'll guide you there. As he mentions, if the rotary is going to be controlling the HBs, it will come "first in line" after the pickups, and before the 5-way switch. As I pointed out earlier, you had is backwards on your earlier diagrams, and your latest one too.

I also think that you're not quite clear on how phase is reversed, as none of your diagrams have, as yet, got that right. It may be helpful for you to use John's Strat SP diagram, and trace the signal flow through his phase switch, for both positions of the switch. You'll have one of those "Aha!" moments at some point.

Understand that none of this is by way of criticism. We're all trying to teach you so that you'll be able to DIY this.

Also understand that this is a complex wiring. These things take some time to work out on paper, and take time to wire. Invariably, there's troubleshooting to be done after it's wired. You will need to have a tolerance for frustration, and the better you understand the circuit and what it does, the better able you will be to implement it, as well as to fix problems afterward. That's what all this is directed towards.

Your next step, as John indicated, should be to try a diagram of just the HBs and the rotary. It will end with 2 wires, a "+" and a "-" (so to speak)going to the 5-way switch, but you don't need to show that, the rest is just as per John's diagram. And it starts with the 2 HBs, no need to show the middle pup, as that isn't involved in the rotary switching.

From there, we can correct it if needed, and also replace the fade with the rotary if you don't want to make another hole in the guitar (or if space precludes having both the fader and the rotary).

[ubertech]

HI guys

Thanks for all this, I am gonna take this advice and map it out as JohnH and Newey have said.

interestingly there is a timing issue here - maybe a states/england thing; While JohnH was explaining how the SP diagram could be used, I was off drawing up the completely wrong idea. I hope you can see I was rejigging the SP strat layout to use rotary just to get my head around the flow only, I realise it wasn't the end product; but I will double check it as Newey says the phase position is wrong so I will check that anyway before I draw up the new scheme.

I am pleased with all the advice and not taking it as criticism so please don't worry as it is not offensive; I am happy you are even considering helping me realise this scheme.

I will draw up what I have understood so far and then get back to you

Thanks UT

[newey]

I will double check it as Newey says the phase position is wrong

Well, I can't really tell what the latest diagram is doing. John's original has the output from the superswitch labelled as "A" and "B", which are then shown as wired to the controls. I don't see where A and B connect in your diagram, so I can't tell what you mean to do there.

Now, John is talking about having the rotary do just series/parallel/coil cut for the pair of HBs, and phase switching would then be accomplished by the phase switch as shown on his diagram. You're still talking about the rotary doing phase switching. SO, we all need to get on the same page with that first off. John's way requires the use of an extra switch, shown as a P/P on one of the pots. But it gives you more phase options as well.

John's suggestion for the rotary uses all 4 poles, so phasing can't be added to his idea using the rotary. If you insist on using the rotary switch to do the phasing, something else has to give way. It will require two poles of the rotary to switch phase (just as John's SP diagram uses a two-pole switch to do so).

So, if you really want to have the phasing options on the rotary, I think it would be possible to have Position 1 be series HBs (for both N and B), Position 2 is coil cuts, both N and B (using 2 poles so as to select opposite coils for hum-cancelling), and position 3 would use the other two poles to switch the phasing. The phase switching would be wired just like John's diagram shows originally, but translated to the rotary instead of a P/P pot.

However, if you do this, you would lose the parallel HB setting. As I said, something would have to give.

[ubertech]

Hi Guys

Yeah I realised something would have to give to put the phase on the rotary - so for now Ive gone with John's scheme of keeping the additional switch for the phase element. So Rotary would be series/single coil/parallel, which would seem the most logical use of the hardware.

I have been drawing but I am a little stuck. Please can you have a look at what I have so far an check if I am heading in the right direction.

I have kept the phase switch from Johns and so far I think in position 1 I have added the two extra coils into the circuit in series.

In Position 2 I think I am bypassing the additional coils to remove them from the circuit leaving the 5 way as it is. 

Position 3 is for parallel and looks a little tricky, but I have traced the signal flow from John's following the pink connection which seems to go to several places, so my guess is this is the parallel routing.

If these are great then WOW! - comments are greatly appreciated at this point

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[JohnH]

I can help with the rotary part, but its Monday here and im off to work. The diagram im thinking of has the SP wiring completely intact, no changes at all to the wiring of the main switch, or how it connects to the pots. The right-hand pot, the fade control can be deleted if not wanted.

The middle pickup will be wired per the SP diagram. The humbuckers will go to the new rotary first, then from there to the 5way using the same red and black wires as on the SSS SP design for neck and bridge pickups.

The rotary would do, turning clockwise, single, parallel and series wiring of each humbucker. The order could be changed, but this would be a progresson of getting thicker and louder in the usual 'turning up' knob direction.

One thing to be checked is, when the humbuckers are in single-coil mode, which coils to select? In that state, with the M single as well, we can pick polarities for your coil-cut humbuckers so that two out of three in-phase combos out of NM, NB and BM pairs are humcancelling, the other one will be humcancelling out of phase. Humcancelling in-phase can be achieved between single coils if they have opposite magnetism. So you might like tk think about that in relation to your preferences and the pickups that you have.

[JohnH]

This could be the rotary switch, with wires to go into the SP diagram for the two humbuckers, in place of the N and B single coils.



It is based on Seymour Duncan wire colours, and in single coil mode, both pickups will be cut to the coil with black and white wires> this would make sense if the M pickup was of opposite magnetic polarity to these coils. Alternatively, you might need a change, or want to have the Neck and bridge singles humcancelling, so that needs to be decided.

[ubertech]

AHA! I get it - that is genius; 

I have drawn up the full version and posted it please could you check it - I realise that this is all your work John and I thank you for it . My main concern are the pink and green wires are correct since I removed your series/parallel switch. If you think it is correct I will try it out and then post the finished drawing after the road test (with all the appropriate copyrights to you lol)

Thanks for your help on this project - I realised now it is a lot more advanced than my knowledge allows. I have learnt quite a bit along the way though - is there a good resource to start me off learning the basics to add in to what has happened through this (very hard) top down look at wiring?

UT

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[JohnH]

I can check it some more later, but it looks like it will work.

But why remove the series/parallel switch? all the wiring is set up to use it and the switching is twice as complex as it needs to be if you don't want it. Also, the tone pot has a special action that works only in series mode, so its second cap would not be needed. I suggest putting it back or we do a simpler design at the 5 way and downstream of it. Note that the series/parallel switch which operates between pickups will give different results to the series/parallel wiring of each humbucker. Also, since you have the phase switch, the series out of phase sounds are generally better than the parallel ones.

EDIT: with further thought, the phase switch, which works in all combinations, does rely on the superswitch wiring, so its not all for nowt. Another thing ti note is that with the fade control gone and NB in the middle position, there is no access to M only.

[ubertech]

Hi John

...not for nowt...lol, I think you must be somewhere near me (yorkshire) I mistakenly thought you were in Ameriki

But why remove the series/parallel switch?

I see now that that series/parallel switch on the rotary was not a replacement for the vol push/pull. Does the one that you had on the vol do something different to the series/parallel setting on the rotary - I think the answer is yes

I had incorrectly imagined that the series/phase/coil-tap replaced the vol series/phase - hence my ommission from the drawing.

Realistically from a playing perspective I think two series/parallel switches would be too complicated. I would rather follow the route I have accidentally gone down if possible but I suspect now that the series/parallel/coiltap from the rotary might be doing the 'wrong type' of series. If I was to follow the rotary idea which series should I use - series between pickups, or local series for each humbucker?

I really like the fade idea but I have no room for the third pot - though the other options would be to replace the rotary with a push/pull pot - 3push pull pots = series/parrallel & phase & coil tap but I think that is really complicating the switching, but the third pot might work as a replacement for the rotary, but I definitely cant have both in the cavity.

Please can you advise based on the above which path would be more appropriate.

Another thing ti note is that with the fade control gone and NB in the middle position, there is no access to M only.

hmm...I think I am ok with this and something I have been aware of - I am more interested in Tele honky jangle with N & B in single coil and I might just have to lose M on its own

[JohnH]

OK, its good that you are prioritizing. Here's my thoughts overall, from a personal perspective.

There's quite a few designs around here that have both local and overall series wiring, so its not crazy, but it is indeed unusual, particularly as compared to commercial guitars. If you add a switch, provided it is not I the way and it doesn't impair another function, then you can always ignore it.

Personally, from a starting point of a basic guitar with humbuckers on it, the first thing id want would be to coil-cut the humbuckers to single coils, and sometimes parallel. I find which of those I like best depends on the guitar, and I have some where the most used sounds are different to others.

The second thing I want is overall system series, but I'm much more likely to use this on the Strat than on my LP

I've got phase switches of various kinds on three electric guitars, but I hardly ever use them, though they are fun to play with.

My two favourite sounds, used most of the time, are a bridge humbucker and a neck single. So with what you are showing, I would get a bit annoyed because it would take two moves to make that change. So I would tend to keep the control of each pickup separate.

My more recent builds for myself have developed from a starting point of a simple wiring, and then changing it in response to how it sounds. But generally Strats with singles want to get thicker options, and humbuckers want to find the brighter options.


So, you may now have the diagram that is right for you. If NB combos are the main extra thing, you might consider changing wires on one humbucker to it cuts to the other coil

[ubertech]

there always seems to be too many options...I think I like the scheme as it is going but I am in agreement with you  that so combinations may be tricky. 

In priority I am favouring (like you):

There's quite a few designs around here that have both local and overall series wiring, so its not crazy, but it is indeed unusual, particularly as compared to commercial guitars. If you add a switch, provided it is not I the way and it doesn't impair another function, then you can always ignore it.

* coil-cut the humbuckers to single coils, 

* system series 

*parallel

* Phase for fun/studio

My lack of knowledge is hindering me here because Im not sure I understand correctly the implications of the difference between system series (between pickups) and local series (pickup coils), as I thought humbuckers were normally in series (local?) and that systems series was used to cut hum in combinations of single coil pickups. And if that is the case, then will I be losing the humbucker in full mode? and if so what will be left in its place?

Which of the above list are taken care of on the diagram? I think I need to have a closer look to decode the signal flow in each mode.

Thanks again for all your guidance and assistance

[newey]

Which of the above list are taken care of on the diagram? I think I need to have a closer look to decode the signal flow in each mode.

Tracing the signal flow is always an aid to understanding.

You rotary operates only on the 2 HBs. It gives "full" series HBs (the normal way HBs are wired), coil splits on both HBs, and parallel HBs. We can call this "intra pickup" series/parallel, plus the coil split.

JohnH's Series/parallel switch is for system series/parallel, what we can call "inter-pickup" series/parallel.

Whether pickups are in series or parallel has nothing to do with hum cancellation. Hum cancellation occurs between two coils that are reverse wound, reverse polarity (RWCP). If the two coils in question are RWRP with respect to each other, then the combination will be hum cancelling regardless of whether they are combined in series or in parallel. This is true for both intra - and inter-pickup combinations (although HBs come from the factory with 2 opposite coils, so unless you wire the coils OOP or flip the magnets around, they will remain hum-cancelling).

[ubertech]

Ah thanks Newey

That explains much and I can see now that I would want to put JohnHs system series push pull back in the circuit (and why JohnH was scratching his head when I removed it - honestly John that was completely down to me being a noob)

Having never knowingly had a series SSS, is the point of doing it a sonic difference? 

Also John H - is there a simple way of having the M(s) on its own, or is it not a position worth having? As you can probably tell from those two comments I have little XP when it comes to the famed strat tones.

strat M or Tele N/B - vote now...

[JohnH]

Series wiring between two single coils makes the sound thicker and adds volume and particularly mid frequencies, and reduces the high treble. Its good, particularly if you have a bright amp.

As to getting M or N/B. On an SSS guitar, many people admit to never using M alone, only in combination with N or B to get quack (don't ask me what that really is!). I would be one of those, on my Strat which has a heap of sounds. But theres no reason why there is anything wrong with M, its just the middle child syndrome. In your case, its the only true single coil on your guitar, and a real single often has a unique percussive sound that is not quite attained by a humbucker cut to a single. But he NB combos with two humbuckers, or singles will also be very good, and on this guitar will be the key settings.

The fade control was able to take a series setting and transition back to a single, and could get M that way, but you have no space for it with the rotary. So Ive got two suggestions:

Instead of a pot for a fade control, would you have room for a mini-toggle switch? Get a three position one, preferably on/on/on and it could do the fade function in two steps. So, working in series mode only, up is both selected pickups in series, middle has one pickup reduced to audibly say 1/2 with the other at full, and down completely bypasses one pickup, giving you just one. In parallel mode, this switch does nothing. Actually, that seems like a good idea to me.

The other possibility is related to the tone control, which has two caps and we haven't discussed why that is. In sreis mode only, as you turn up the tone to maximum, it starts to bypass one pickup by a cap, reducing its treble, keeping its bass and letting the treble from the other pickup move more freely - which makes the sound shift to being brighter, towards a single coil sound. It means the series tone keeps getting brighter all the way through its travel, and it brings forth several extra good sounds. If the second cap gets larger, or even becomes a wire link, it effectively cuts out one pickup at max, hence you could use it to get a pure M.

Each of these ideas is within the scope of the basic SP design, adding a switch or varying a cap, no change to eth other wiring. So you could start by building it as it is drawn, and do some tests with flying leads, to see what might sound good. Youll be able to test the M only sound that way, try before you buy. OK, that's what I would do, hows that for a plan?

[ubertech]

That is one monster plan

I love the cap idea...and I love the switch idea.

Im going to build as is, as you say to do a field test. Ive re-instated your original and hopefully the wiring is correct with the missing fade pot. When I crack the beast open I will have a look again to see if there is room for another pot...but if not there may be a squeeze for a little switch.

Im really pleased with the design, thank you so much - it was supposed to be a simple gibbo/strat hybrid and I think it has gone so much further putting in some great mods from each nest. The best bit though is witnessing a whole stack of knowledge, delivered concisely and with care. Thanks very much - I will report back with the verdict; I cant wait to hear the SSS version of the Nighthawk - Ive no idea why they didn't put it in like that in the first place - it came with some wonky cap dubbed the 'tone-suck' by its detractors; I think I will now look it up and try and figure what it actually did (with my new knowledge) - but I suspect this mod will have it beat. Next up may have to be the new slant HB by seymour dunc in the bridge, but lets hear how this sounds first...

I have a pocket full of different caps, and when my second push/pull arrives I am GTG...cant wait

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[ubertech]

Wow suddenly I have a guitar that works!

the single coil sounds are great and the series humbuckers too. and IMO the phase sounds are very useable and the layout is logical - particularly warm thin to warm fat for solos.

There is an issue Im working through though due to the OBL (bill laurence) bridge - looking here:
www.guitarelectronics.com/category/wiring_resources_guitar_wiring_diagrams.humbucker_wiring_color_codes/ 

I first interpreted the colours directly into Seymour Duncan (as per the diagram) but the phases between the neck and bridge were all wrong - so with the pickup selector to the rear (pos 3-5) the phase was only correct with the phase switch out! I looked carefully at the site again and saw that the coils on the Bill Laurence were reversed - the screw coil is North Polarity, the screw on the seymour is south polarity. 

To try a solution, I swapped the OBL wiring so South becomes north and vice versa, and all is well...almost

OBL green - SD black North start
OBL red     - SD white North finish
OBL Black  - SD green South start
OBL white  - SD red South finish

In the coil tap and full humbucker all seems well in all positions and the phase works correctly, however in parallel mode (rotary sw pos2) the bridge humbucker cancels out in switch pos 5 giving a really thin sound so I am assuming that the two rear coils are cancelling out in a POOP way

Im going to try a few combinations of the OBL coil wires to see if I've just worked out the conversion wrong, but any pointers would be appreciated (apart from by a Seymour for the bridge - ive already thought of that)

It does sound great though and some fantastic sounds; my FX pedal is going in the bin lol!

[JohnH]

well done getting it together.

If, as you first wired it, all was well except the phase switch had to be out instead of in, then you could go back to that and reverse the wires at the phase switch. Just swap the two wires going to the phase switch middle lugs, keeping others the same.