Godin Redline III pickup swap wiring ideas.(EMG to Passive)

[yellowjacket]

I'm new here.  I was searching around the net for ideas on guitar wiring and I found the guitarnuts webpage. 

Background:  I have a couple of excellent rock axes already (Mahogany short scale style with HMBs) so I wanted something a little different.  Since I like to muck about and customize everything, I decided to score something used.  I got a Godin Redline III in good condition off of the buy and sell.  It comes stock with EMGs but I have a set of Bare Knuckle Juggernauts on order.   Switching from active to passive means that I can gut all the electronics and rebuild everything from scratch. (And flip the actives as a set)  Sounds like a fun project, right?

Controls:  2 holes for Volume and Tone controls.  A rout for a strat style blade switch.  Currently a 3 way switch in there but I aim to change that.  2 EMG humbuckers.  An 85 in the bridge and an 81 in the neck.  

Guitar:  25.5 scale hard maple bolt on neck with rosewood fingerboard.  JUmbo frets.  LFR bridge system.  Soft maple body centre and top with poplar wings  Rear routed.  

Guitar Tone unplugged:  It sounds like a fairly dark and well balanced strat with good lows.  So, bright and midrangey.  It has a nice loud sound unplugged so it's going to sound killer with passives.

Wiring parts:  I'm currently thinking of two audio taper 550k CTS pots for Volume and Tone,  A 0.022uf paper in oil cap, and a 5 way fender style blade switch.  Aside from that I'm going to have to shield and ground the control cavity and install the entire wiring harness.  I'll also have to replace the input jack.  I read on the Guitarnuts homepage that I should put a capacitor between the ground wire and the input jack?   

Pickups:  Bare Knuckle Juggernaut set.

Pretty straight forward, right?

Setup / Wiring ideas?  Now, so here's the thing.  Since this axe is primarily for metal and other heavy music, I definitely want the series humbucker tones.  That's the priority.  My original plan was to simply coil tap the bridge and neck coils in positions 2 and 4 for more traditional strat style tones.  Since the guitar sounds like a strat unplugged it will most likely have plenty of quack in these positions. Then I made a 'mistake' and started reading...

Now I have been reading a bit on parallel wiring for HMBs vs coil tapping and I've heard that to get more output with a single coil - ish sound  (Apparently sounds like a P-90) the pickups can be switched from series to parallel with the 5 way blade switch.  I was also told that if I wire for series and put a 1k resistor between the grounded pickup leads and the ground, some of the signal from the 'off' humbucker will bleed through, giving slightly greater output similar to a single coil tone.


So, questions:  I have another guitar with a 3 way switch and a push pull pot.  It's coil tapping and the single coil tones tend to be much brighter than the HMB  (To be expected).  They're also much less output and very noisy (also to be expected).  I found that I particularly like the sound of a single coil in the neck in addition to the series humbucker tone.  I find that with the bridge pickup, I almost never use the single coil tone because it's much too bright and anemic.
1) Is it possible to wire a 5 way to go: Neck HMB Series / Neck HMB Split Coil  (With resistor for higher output) / Neck and Bridge HMB Traditional Style / Bridge Parallel / Bridge Series?  
2) Has anyone experimented with switching with series to parallel but putting a resistor in the parallel circuit to 'turn down' one of the coils?  Is this even possible?  Will it interfere with the series operation of the HMB?
3) Would it be possible to have: Neck HMB series / Neck Split Coil (Resistor?) BOth HMBs Series / Split Neck and Bridge / Bridge?  That seems like it may be useful but from what I've heard, a parallel HMB in the bridge may be really great too.
4) I've heard Suhr figured out a way to get 250k resistance for tapped coils and 500k resistance for humbuckers with a wiring trick.  Anyone heard of this or know what it is?
5)  General opinions on Series vs Parallel wiring and what is the optimal setup for a coil tap / single coil tone?  (I can already guess that someone is going to say it all depends on what I want / like)  I'd like my neck split coil to sound as comparable to a proper single coil pickup as possible, under the circumstances. Also, having a smoother less aggressive bridge tone would be great.

I hope this makes some sense, I'm not sure I entirely understand what I'm saying =-/  The pickups will arrive soon and I'm hoping to order the electronics and get this build under way soon.  


 

[JohnH]

Hi yellowjacket and welcome to GN2.

Everything you suggest is feasible, but will mostly need a 5way superswitch to do those things just with the 5way.

For humbucker parallel wiring it can sound good and is very noise-cancelling. I like it on two guitars where i have , but not so much on a third.
Ive also messed with the partial bypass with resistors, also with caps. On my LP, with PAF-style humbuckers, I like the neck fully split to single, but the bridge series wired with one coil bypassed by a 0.047uF cap. This lets treble from the other coil come through with extra single-coil clarity, but with humbucker bass, and a funky mid dip. Worth a try.

So I fear it really does 'depend'. I find it takes me 2 or 3 wirings to find what I like best for each guitar. So some temporary wire-up might be a good idea. At least wuth rear routing its easy to tweak.

[newey]

yellowjacket-

Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2!

I read on the Guitarnuts homepage that I should put a capacitor between the ground wire and the input jack?

What you are referring to is what we here have called the "blocking Capacitor mod". This capacitor has nothing to do with noise or shielding, it is there to reduce the risk of electrical shock under certain circumstances.

The take-away from ChrisK's discussion there is that, to be safe from the hazards of faulty wiring or a balky tube amp, one shouldn't rely just on the capacitor- use a GFCI oulet, better yet use a wireless setup, and use an outlet tester when plugging into a new venue's mains.

As ChrisK notes there, using the capacitor is somewhat better than not using it, but it isn't necessarily "best". "Best" would be a wireless setup, it eliminates any real possibility of harm from electric shock.

I do shield my single-coil equipped guitars, and some with HBs as well. But I don't bother to install the capacitor. I don't do so because I don't play out, and I use a GFCI power strip on my amps at home, which is plugged into a known-good mains outlet. I also don't own any vintage tube amps, so there's no risk of that fault scenario. Under those circumstances, the risk of shock is so low that the added cost and complexity of adding the cap just isn't worth it.

But if I was in a bar band, and just had to play through a '50s or '60's vintage amp, plugging into questionable outlets, then I would add the cap for that little extra edge of safety- but I'd also take the more basic steps of using an outlet tester, a GFCI, and ideally, a wireless setup.

I'll also have to replace the input jack

Why, unless it's broken?

I'm currently thinking of two audio taper 550k CTS pots for Volume and Tone, A 0.022uf paper in oil cap . .

I assume you mean 500K, as I'm unaware of 550K as a standard value. That's a fine choice for HBs, but you could certainly drop one, or both, down to 250K for a bit "darker" sound.

There's nothing wrong with paper in oil caps, other than their size which sometimes creates issues. But they also aren't any better, either. So, unless you already have one to use, I wouldn't spend any more money to get one as opposed to another type.

There's a lot of nonsense about caps out there on the web. People who claim that they hear a difference in "vintage" caps are probably hearing a cap that has degraded over time such that it no longer has the rated nominal capacitance, so what they're hearing is a difference in capacitance from an out-of-spec component. Or, alternatively, it's just wishful thinking that they're hearing a difference, after spending some $$ on something that's supposedly "better".

[yellowjacket]

Awesome.  

So I emailed Bare Knuckle and they said that the Juggernaut neck splits well but that the bridge may be a bit dodgy because of the weird magnet configuration.  i.e. 2 ceramic bars and a large alnico V bar.  
I'm think I'd like to try Series Neck / Split Neck / Series neck and bridge / Parallel Bridge / Series bridge.

Parts list:

550k volume pot
550k Tone pot

(These are from Bare Knuckle)

5 way blade super switch  (instead of 5 way standard switch)

Shielded Guitar Wire.  It's a good spool of the stuff.

Mono Jack  (I want to replace the stereo jack so I can flip the EMGS and all the related wiring as a set)

0.022 paper oil cap.  It's seriously only $8 tehe

Copper Shielding tape with a conductive adhesive.

Possibly a resistor for the split neck HMB.  


Are these enough supplies to wire up the guitar?  Can I use the wire for grounds as well.  How about two and from the input jack?  I understand that I have to run the ground there too.

Are their any schematics / diagrams for something like this?  I really have no idea what I'm doing as far as setting up the 5 way super switch =-/  
Any diagrams on how to correctly shield / ground the 2 HMB setup?  I want to do something similar to the strat shielding, at least to reduce noise from lights and coil tapping.


John H.  I hear you, I'm going to simply have to TRY something.  I know that a split neck HMB works for me and the resistor idea sounds interesting.  Tracking down a 1k resistor shouldn't be hard of I want to try that variant.  I have no idea where to stick the thing but I'm sure once I read a bit I'll be able to figure it out. 

Newey:  Good to know about the grounding capacitor.  I only play newer amps so it should be such a big problem?  

When it comes to caps, I noticed quite a huge difference between my cheap PIO cap vs the little ceramic disc that came in my Les Paul.  BUT, I wonder how much of it is all BS and marketing tactics.  I would be assed to pay $60 for a bumblebee cap.  $8 seems fair, though, and I do need to get once since I'm rewiring the entire guitar.  

[newey]

Are these enough supplies to wire up the guitar? Can I use the wire for grounds as well. How about two and from the input jack? I understand that I have to run the ground there too.

Yes. And, yes. If the spool is of shielded cable, you may need to strip it down to just the conductor for some of the wire runs.

I don't use the cheap ceramic disc caps either, because they are not manufactured to very close tolerances. I use the green "chiclet" style poly caps- which run about 25 cents. I think $8 for a cap is highway robbery, but hey, it's your wallet.

As far as a diagram for what you want, we may have something close that we can use as a starting point. I'm at work right now, but let me dig around in our files here later on, I'll see what I can find.

I only play newer amps so it should be such a big problem?

There are two separate shock hazards- shock from a catastrophic tube amp failure, and a risk of shock from an improperly wired mains outlet or line. A newer amp should solve the first one, but not the second . . .

[yellowjacket]

The electronics are on order and hopefully they ship soon.  The Pickups are already shipped but they're coming from the UK so I'll be waiting for a bit.

Any updates / opinions from you folks??  

[newey]

As promised, I've rummaged around in the basement, and here's some options for you to explore. All of these schemes have been tried and are G-nutz Approved™

JohnH's Strat HH

This has inter-pickup (system) series and parallel, as well as an OOP option that could be removed if desired. It does not do parallel HBs, though. It uses the tone controls for the coil splits.

ChrisK's Simple 2 HB superswitch mod
ChrisK's scheme has the coil cuts on the 5-way, with a couple of different options for the coil cuts.

But probably the closest to what you're asking for is this scheme from long-ago member fobits:

Fobit's "8 tones from Dual HBs"

This requires a Superswitch and a DPDT switch (which could be a P/P pot), but it gives you each HB in series and in parallel, as well as both HBs together, again in either series or parallel. It also has a coil-cut option.

I've always liked this scheme, at least on paper- I've never used it on any guitar. The only drawback is that the DPDT mode control only affects 3 of the 5 positions on the SS, so there are 2 redundant positions. But these 2 redundancies are both to give all 4 coils, so one can switch from the SC option, for example, to the two HBs without messing with the P/P. The switching is fairly logical in that way.

[yellowjacket]

Ok, entirely stupid question.  I wired everything up and no signal, laaate last night.  =-(  So I started removing components out of the circuit.  The problem is around the tone pot / cap.  It's the usual (upside down with tabs at the bottom) wire comes from the input on the volume to the second tab on the tone and the third tab (right tab) has the cap which is soldered to the back of the tone pot and the wire goes from the tone pot to the back of the volume pot.  I've double checked the solders and when I put the tone pot in the signal, I get almost no signal at all but when the tone pot is out of the circuit, I have plenty of signal. Should I test the cap?  How do I do that?

I really have no idea what is going on =-/  This is frustrating =-(

[newey]

There's really no way to test the cap without an LCR meter. The cap isn't a very likely culprit anyway, if you have low output with the tone knob at "10". The likely culprit is a bad connection, the less likely one is a bad pot.

However, if excess heat was applied to the pot when soldering to it, it could be damaged and cause the symptoms, at least in theory, that you describe.

When you say that you checked the connections, did you go around and hit each of them with your iron, or just visually check them and/or wiggle the connections? And, did you check the connection at the volume pot? (This is a likely failure point because you're usually connecting two wires to that lug)

If all connections do check out, you'll need to pull the pot and disconnect all the wiring to check it with your meter. Meter across both outside lugs should give you the nominal resistance (plus or minus 20%). Meter from the wiper to one of the outside lugs should show a fairly even transition, as you rotate the shaft, from 0Ω to the nominal value, and the opposite lug should give you the opposite- high down to low. If any of those values don't look right, then the pot is your problem.