HSH Special Wiring

[luke81]

EDIT: moved from General Guitar Schematics to Guitar Wiring by sumgai

Hello
i'm new in this forum,

i saw on previous thread your are a genius in wiring!

Could i have a little help for you? (sorry for my english, i'm from switzerland, i hope you understand

I would wired my Musicman Silo HSH like this

Pos1 Pos2 Pos3 Pos4 Pos5
Neck HB/Neck HB + Middle/ Middle/ Middle + Bridge HB/ Bridge HB

and for each HB split w/push pull
and inner or outer coil w/push pull
and a subtility, when split is on pos 3 = Neck Split+Bridge split with the choice of inner-outer!!! Maybe add a mini toggle switch

Do you know it's possible?

I have a VLX91 Switch to do this wiring   www.his.com/~sha3u/gear/vlx91.jpg

Many Thanks in advance

Maybe start with this diagram....

[newey]

luke81-

Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2!

luke81 had previously sent me a PM asking this question, and I suggested that he repost it here so others could give him ideas. I did note that the specific idea he had for position 3 was going to require more switch poles than he had to work with. I suggested that adding a switch to turn the neck on (or bridge on) would allow him to get close to what he wanted.

[JohnH]

Hi Luke81 and welcome. On the diagram of the 5 way, are we looking at two seperate sides of the same switch?, ie 4 switch poles total? I think that is what would be needed, like a superswitch.

Two poles would have the job of replicating the function of that SD diagram. The other two poles would connect to N and B, but only in position 3. In other positions they would match the standard selections. An extra switch would select output from the first pair or second pair, the only difference being in position 3. Position 3 would also be affected by the push/pulls for full/inner/outer selections.

Newey's suggestion is simpler and gets all the tones plus all three at once

[luke81]

Yes i think the newey suggestion it's more simple, maybe!

I have made a picture of my wish. See attachements!!!

Attachments:

Fab config hsh.pdf (270.7 KB)

[newey]

The pdf above shows something different from what you stated originally. In your original "wish list", everything was as per the diagram except at position 3. As I pointed out to you, to do that would require both a Superswitch (or similar, like the VLX switch)as well as a toggle switch with 4 poles on it.

Now, as per the pdf, you want a change at position 4 as well. You show the tone pot P/P changing the coil cut from inner to outer coils, except that, at position 4, it doesn't change which coil is cut on the bridge pickup. You show the bridge pickup as cutting to the outer coil regardless of the position of the tone pot p/p.

I haven't worked out whether this would be possible, but it would certainly require even more switching.

You need to decide, first, whether you will add more switching, and if so, what, or alternatively, you need to scale back the amount of coil switching you want to do.

[luke81]

Oouups i have made a mistake...

this is the right combination of the pickups

If on the SD diagram the coil select push pull is a DPDT on-on-on or normal push pull?

Attachments:

Fab config hsh.pdf (251.97 KB)

[sumgai]

I'm not so sure I'm seeing the full story here....

What happens when only the Tone pot switch is pulled up?

[luke81]

Hello Sumgai

normally nothing...

[newey]

luke-

All P/P pots, as far as I am aware, are On-On switches. There is no such thing as a three-position Push/pull, i.e., there's no "on-on-on" P/Ps.

Your new diagram now shows the coils you said you wanted originally, but again, this cannot be accomplished without (at the very least) a 4PDT toggle switch and a Superswitch or similar for the 5-way.

As I mentioned to you in my PM, these switches may well present some serious issues as far as fitment. In any event, the P/P pot shown in the diagram can't do what you want, as it doesn't have enough poles.

[luke81]

Ok i understand now.

I use goggle translate to help me  !!!!

do you think it's possible you draw me a diagram with what i want... I know it's not a easy work!
But if you can do it ( i don't know what we say in english, maybe if you can achieve it...) I will send you a gift from switzerland !!!!
I don't find someone who can draw me a diagram 

If it's so very hard to elaborate it, don't tire yourself, i will re-think my pickups combinations.

Tell me your thoughts

[JohnH]

May 16, 2014 11:55:16 GMT -5 newey said:

luke-

All P/P pots, as far as I am aware, are On-On switches. There is no such thing as a three-position Push/pull, i.e., there's no "on-on-on" P/Ps.

Your new diagram now shows the coils you said you wanted originally, but again, this cannot be accomplished without (at the very least) a 4PDT toggle switch and a Superswitch or similar for the 5-way.

As I mentioned to you in my PM, these switches may well present some serious issues as far as fitment. In any event, the P/P pot shown in the diagram can't do what you want, as it doesn't have enough poles.

I agree 100% with that.

To do your settings, you need a 4 pole switch instead of the volume push pull. This could be a Fender S1 switch, as on American Deluxe Strats, which is a 4 pole push button set into the volume knob. The 5 way needs to be a superswitch. the tone switch could be a push pull.

But before you do all that, my observation is that you would be getting a number of settings that you may not use:

- One single coil at the neck usually sounds very similar to the other single coil
- The bridge single furthest from the bridge sounds less thin than the one nearer the bridge, and is usually preferred.
- If you make a combination of middle and one neck coil, one such combo is humcancelling, and the other will hum. So It may be better to have just the humcancelling one.
- The same applies to bridge single +M combinations

with regard to whether such switches will fit, since your Musicman Silo is not so well known as a Strat, I think it would be a good idea to remove the pickguard to see what the routing cavity is like, and measure it for switch fitment.

[luke81]

In deed...
you say some combination are not really interesting!!! I take it in count (i don't know what we says in english)

So maybe i really do something different

Like that ....

It's seems to be a good compromise

[sumgai]

May 16, 2014 10:25:19 GMT -5 sumgai said:

I'm not so sure I'm seeing the full story here....

What happens when only the Tone pot switch is pulled up?

May 16, 2014 11:00:09 GMT -5 luke81 said:

Hello Sumgai

normally nothing...

Well, if that's the case, then you have just invented a switch that does not switch. In other words, it does not actually do anything useful, it just sits there and looks pretty. In other further words, it's a waste of space, and money, and time to install it, if it does nothing.

Rest assured, if a switch does something occasionally, it will do that same thing all the time. The only question becomes, which pickups are combined in what way, when only the Tone p/p switch is pulled up.

Before you even begin to figure that out, just ask yourself this question: you have two switches, and each of them has two positions - how many possible combinations of positions do you have? Answer:

Both up
Both down
V down, T up
T down, V up

That's a total of 4 possible selections that will join your pickups in some combination or another. If you consider only 3 of those possible selections, you're gonna receive a heck of a surprise when you try the fourth one. (Es trifft dich, sehr shwer!) The surprise may be good, bad, or somewhere in between, who knows?

Even in the more simple scheme that you are now thinking about, switches will always do something, so be sure to work your way through all of the possible combinations.

HTH





sumgai

[luke81]

Well, if that's the case, then you have just invented a switch that does not switch. In other words, it does not actually do anything useful, it just sits there and looks pretty. In other further words, it's a waste of space, and money, and time to install it, if it does nothing.

Rest assured, if a switch does something occasionally, it will do that same thing all the time. The only question becomes, which pickups are combined in what way, when only the Tone p/p switch is pulled up.

Before you even begin to figure that out, just ask yourself this question: you have two switches, and each of them has two positions - how many possible combinations of positions do you have? Answer:

Both up
Both down
V down, T up
T down, V up

That's a total of 4 possible selections that will join your pickups in some combination or another. If you consider only 3 of those possible selections, you're gonna receive a heck of a surprise when you try the fourth one. (Es trifft dich, sehr shwer!) The surprise may be good, bad, or somewhere in between, who knows?

Even in the more simple scheme that you are now thinking about, switches will always do something, so be sure to work your way through all of the possible combinations.

Ok thank you sumgai,
i'm a real newbie in term of guitar wiring! 
I will really choose what pickups combinations i want, and tell you if it's possible to do it!

i have worked all the night to learn how read and understand a diagram, and how worked the pickups. I know some new things about that. It's help me to know what i want and what we can do it! 

Luke

[sumgai]

luke,

Well, that's what we're all about here in The NutzHouse - learning and sharing.

The fact is that as guitar players, each of us is faced with two separate problems - what sounds, or tones, to use; and how to get those sounds out of our guitar. Solving one problem does not necessarily mean that you've solved the other one!

You are much like other members here - you have an idea, and you want help achieving that idea. And it's OK to change your mind about what you want as we talk more and more, we all do that. No problem, we like solving puzzles!

Getting down to brass tacks, let's talk about your supposition that T up/V down would have no effect (according to your first post). I assume that you are thinking "when the V p/p is down, it's full humbucker, so the T p/p can't select a single coil", am I correct? No, that's not true. Unless you knowingly force this to happen, then it's possible that pulling up on the T p/p will still split the humbuckers. What you are hoping for is for the V p/p to override the T p/p. Sadly, as noted by others above, that's not gonna happen, not with the available switching options found on a normal p/p.

However..... what I would suggest is this: Some of us agree (and others don't!) that the difference in tone between the inner and outer coils is almost nothing. Like John said above, you pick one of the two coils in your humbucker, combine it with the Middle, and the result will be very, very close to the same as the other coil. This means that you select which coil reduces hum (with the Middle pup), and that's a permanent choice. You've now eliminated the need for a p/p to select inner vs. outer coils, so you have an unused p/p to do something else. I believe newey suggested that you use it for a Neck On switch (or Bridge On, the effect is the same). This will allow you to use your original 5-way switch, and still achieve all the desired combos, plus a few you didn't mention. And you don't even have to install a mini-switch. For a more thorough discussion of a Bridge On switch, and some diagrams, click this link.

HTH

Oh, and don't worry about your English, we can understand you just fine.





sumgai

[luke81]

Thank you. I will discover the post you suggested. 

And turn all that things in my head!!!

Luke

[JohnH]

HSH has many possibilities, and you cant have them all and still have a usable guitar.

If I was in your position, with an HSH guitar two pots and a five way switch, I might do the following:

- Have two push/pulls
- Standard Strat settings on the 5-way
- One push/pull cuts both humbuckers, each to the coil that is humcancelling with the M pickup in positions 2 and 4
- The other does two things. It forces the bridge pickup to come on, and also changes which coil the neck cuts to if it is coil cut, and if N is selected.

So select N, pull the second switch, you have N+B

This is not a complex wiring, and can be done with a standard 5 way. It gives you the N+B combinations, whether as full humbuckers, or single coils. And the single coil N+B combo is humcancelling, as are the N+M and B+M single combos. And you can have all three, as SSS or HSH, in position 4.

[luke81]

Hi John,
very nice combinations!
I will about this wiring to!

what do you mean about my second diagram i post?

Luke

[JohnH]

May 18, 2014 2:43:06 GMT -5 luke81 said:

Hi John,
very nice combinations!
I will about this wiring to!

what do you mean about my second diagram i post?

Luke

Luke..I think that diagram is good at positions 1, 3 & 5. But 2 and 4, good in the first mode, dont seem to add anything in the pulled up mode. I havnt checked the wiring of it.

[luke81]

More question,
if i use a di marzio injetcor single coil for example (with no hum technology) in the middle. I don't need to be carefull for hum cancelling position,right?

Luke

[JohnH]

May 18, 2014 14:38:14 GMT -5 luke81 said:

More question,
if i use a di marzio injetcor single coil for example (with no hum technology) in the middle. I don't need to be carefull for hum cancelling position,right?

Luke

you could do that. Then position 3 is noise-free when its M. Also, combos of M plus the full humbuckers would be noise free. But a single coil from N or M, combined with the no-noise M, would still leave one coil un cancelled so you get some hum. You might find its ok, not too much hum.

it depends if hum is a concern for you. If so, then you need to take care of it. Eg even the N +B single coils combo will hum unless you pick different magnetic polarities. But none of the hum will be worse than a normal single coil.

But with HSH, you have enough coils to give a wide range of options with minimal hum, particularly those with 2 active coils.

So you choose. All of the diagrams should work and sound good, other than this hum issue.

[newey]

More question,
if i use a di marzio injetcor single coil for example (with no hum technology) in the middle. I don't need to be carefull for hum cancelling position,right?

Luke

It will help, but won't solve the hum problem with a N + B setting (with single coil operation of both HBs).

[sumgai]

More question,
if i use a di marzio injetcor single coil for example (with no hum technology) in the middle. I don't need to be carefull for hum cancelling position,right?

Luke

Your planned DM Injector still two coils for hum reduction, but in this case they're arranged in what we call a stacked dual-coil design - that lets them fit into a space big enough only for a standard-sized single-coil pickup. My advice is to buy it only if it sounds good to you - don't buy it for any "magical" hum-cancelling properties. (In point of fact, no humbucker is 100% effective, they are only "good enough", although some of them do a better job than others.)

John and newey have already pointed out the error in your supposition, but let me go into a bit more detail, just for your education.

In essence, two coils wired together correctly can reduce hum, but the best ones are those where the coils are very closely matched. One of the coils will be wound in what we call NWNP (Normal Wound, Normal Polarity), and the other will be RWRP (Reverse Wound, Reverse Polarity). Adding a third coil will upset that balance. No matter how they are connected, two of the coils are going to overpower the remaining coil, and thus hum will be reduced by only a fraction of a normal humbucker by itself.

While you could open this Injector and make some wiring changes, and then make more changes in your switching circuitry, there comes a point where you have to ask yourself "Is this worth the extra effort?". And if all you're trying to do is separate the coils so that you have only one coil to balance against a split humbucker coil, then why didn't you just stay with the original single coil pickup in the first place?

Again, only if the thing sounds very good to you should you even consider using it in your axe.

HTH






sumgai

[luke81]

Thank all for your details infos!
You must think i'm a really bad newbie!!! 

So, if i have all understood, let me show you an example!!! 

If i want in a HSH guitar have hum cancelling for Neck outter coil and bridge outter coil i need to wire like this....

[newey]

No. What you've shown there is wiring the two pickups out-of-phase. It will be hum-cancelling, too (assuming the pickups are identical), but out-of-phase wasn't what you wanted.

Assuming that both HBs are the same make and model, to get hum cancellation when using the outer coils, one outer coil needs to be a screw coil, and the other needs to be a slug coil. Usually, however, that's not how they're mounted in the guitar- the outer coils are usually both screw coils.

If the pickup is one of those that has two screw coils, you may have to measure the magnetic polarity to be sure. If you are using two different makes of pickup, you'll also have to measure the polarity to be sure. (A Boy Scout compass will work to do this).

If you want both outer coils to hum-cancel when combined, and if the outer coils are both screw coils, then either:

• one pickup needs to be rotated 180 degrees, so as to have one slug coil be the outer coil, or
• one pickup needs to be taken apart, and its magnet needs to be flipped.

Flipping the magnet is the only way to do this if you insist on having two screw coils hum-cancel. It can be done, and is not a difficult job, assuming that the HBs in question are uncovered, or if covered, not wax-potted or encased in some sort of resin.

As mentioned above, however, the difference in sound between one coil at the neck position or the other is usually non-existent, either coil will sound the same at the neck. So, rather than rotating pickups or flipping magnets, it's a lot easier to just use the slug coil from the neck pickup in combination with the screw coil from the bridge pickup (or the other way around, if you prefer).

As I said before, if you want us to help you with a diagram, we first need to "zero in" on exactly what you want and exactly what switching you will have in the guitar. This is going to involve some compromises from your original "wish list".

[luke81]

Arrggg almost! I feel it´s comming 

I finish to think what combination i want, and i tell you soon!

Question again,

if bridge hb and middle is on, it´s a hum cancelling postion to?

Luke

[JohnH]

May 19, 2014 14:00:01 GMT -5 luke81 said:

Arrggg almost! I feel it´s comming 

I finish to think what combination i want, and i tell you soon!

Question again,

if bridge hb and middle is on, it´s a hum cancelling postion to?

Luke

With a simple single coil for M, then that combo is not humcancelling, but it is a bit less hum than M alone. It is an average of the B hb, which is humcancelling, and M which is not.

But for that arrangement, if you had the noiseless single, then it would be humcancelling, but then as we have said, B single + M would be not hum cancelling.

[luke81]

Ok thank you John.

[luke81]

May 20, 2014 1:47:51 GMT -5 luke81 said:

Something who play practical jokes (i found with google, i hope it's correct  )

In the diagram below. Why they wired green and red together, it s for have phase reverse, or it's normal?

To finish, i go with this one, and do some change when pull up! I mean it's good one for me, more easy in live, with minimal manipulation!
And i get what i want.

I will send a diagram with the mod i want!

 

[newey]

Why they wired green and red together, it s for have phase reverse, or it's normal?

It's not anything to do with phase reversal, but it's not really "normal" either.

The red and green wires here are the "series link" between the two coils of the HBs Usually, with DM pickups, it's the black and white wires which form the series link, and they are wired together to give the full HB sound. Here, the diagram shows the pickups wired the other way around, with the green and red as the series junction, and with black and white as the + and - to output.

That sort of wiring of a HB is what our member wolf calls wiring the humbucker "inside out". It's not the usual way, but so long as both pickups are wired consistently, both one way or both the other way, it will work fine and will sound the same either way..