J. Obeast
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Post by J. Obeast on Jun 9, 2014 22:30:49 GMT -5
Hi, this might seem like a newbie question, because it is. I only just wired my first successful 2-p'up guitar the other day (simplified JM SS 1V, 1T, 3-way LP toggle + phase rev). So I AM a nube – previous attempts using blade switches were disastrous. So my current build uses only mini sliders I had on hand.
My Teisco custom build was originally routed for one p'up in the neck position, I chiseled routs for bridge and middle. I bought appropriate Teisco metal-covered pickups for N & B, and had a 70's style Strat p'up for the middle.
As the body is so shallow (1") and the pickguard space so limited, and I had such negative previous experience with blade switches, I installed a cluster of 3 Jag-style Switchcraft DPDT on-on minislider switches, 1 volume and 1 tone pot, plus a jack on my custom-made pickguard.
I can't find any schematics or drawings of how to simply wire 3 p'ups in parallel with this array. Can anyone tell me how? Thanks, Obeast
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Post by newey on Jun 9, 2014 23:10:30 GMT -5
Sorry, but I had to move your thread as it's really a wiring question.
J Ob-
There are various possibilities for wiring this up. What are you envisioning these switches doing? The obvious suggestion is that each switch turns one pickup on/off, thus allowing all the combos of 3 pickups. But you may have something else in mind, so we need to clarify exactly what you want before we start in with diagrams.
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J. Obeast
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Post by J. Obeast on Jun 10, 2014 11:57:55 GMT -5
Thanks, Newey, for your helpful interest.
I guess that 3 DPDT on/on sliders will afford some flexibility beyond simple on/off selection. But I don't really know and I can't find any schematics of simple SSS array with 2-position DPDT's. Oddly, no one seems to build guitars that way – and I thought this would most resemble a SSS Teisco build.
I copied a schematic for a "Binary Tree" array for two pickups and was thinking it might afford flexibility of signal (but haven't read what exactly it does). But my grasp of switch logic doesn't inform me of how to add a 3rd pickup to the array, or with what result. At this stage I am just guessing, so advice is welcome.
What all can be done with 3 on/on DPDTs?
THanks, J Obeast
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J. Obeast
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Post by J. Obeast on Jun 10, 2014 14:06:29 GMT -5
The small pickguard doesn't afford any more room for switches beyond the 3 already installed below the neck pickup.
I suppose the V & T pots could be replaced with push-pull or rotary switches (I am not much addicted into T & V manipulation while playing) but the vertical space hollowed out below the pickguard will only afford 5/8" – another 1/16" beyond what normal-size Alpha pots take up. This thinness of the guitar body is what prompted my choice of simplistic slider switching.
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Post by JohnH on Jun 10, 2014 14:58:40 GMT -5
This Seymour Duncan diagram would work: 1V 1T 3 switchesIt uses toggle switches, but slide switches would be similar. It shows 3 lugs per switch. If your switches have a 2 x 3 array of lugs, then just use the three on one side. On that diagram, there is a ground wire from the tone pot to the upper switch lugs. I don't see that that does anything, and could be omitted I believe. Here's an option: If you do have the 6 lugs per switch, you can use the unused side to create a perfectly quiet 'off' setting, by chaining the three switches in series from ground to the middle volume lug, so that only when the guitar is all off, it shunts output to ground. That's better than having it open circuit when no pickups are on, which can pick up buzzes.
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J. Obeast
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Post by J. Obeast on Jun 10, 2014 17:11:08 GMT -5
Thanks, John H for the advice. Looking at the SD diagram (why couldn't I find it before? I swear I looked) I can now see how to do it simply.
One question though: which lug
1 4 2 5 3 6 of each switch should chain to ground on the middle lug of the V pot? Should it be #5?
Thanks again!
J Obeast John H wrote: It uses toggle switches, but slide switches would be similar. It shows 3 lugs per switch. If your switches have a 2 x 3 array of lugs, then just use the three on one side.
On that diagram, there is a ground wire from the tone pot to the upper switch lugs. I don't see that that does anything, and could be omitted I believe.
Here's an option: If you do have the 6 lugs per switch, you can use the unused side to create a perfectly quiet 'off' setting, by chaining the three switches in series from ground to the middle volume lug, so that only when the guitar is all off, it shunts output to ground. That's better than having it open circuit when no pickups are on, which can pick up buzzes.
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Post by newey on Jun 10, 2014 18:17:18 GMT -5
If you can't fit any more switches, then there's not much that can be done, besides individual on/off switches.
One Idea: You could use the "binary tree" switching for two of the switches (provided, as John noted, that they are indeed double pole switches- you seem to indicate that they are.) For example, you could use two switches in a binary tree arrangement to give you, let's say, the N or B pups individually, both in series, and both in parallel. The third switch could then be used to turn the middle pickup on/off.
This would eliminate the "all off" setting, however.
Alternatively, you could replace the three On-On sliders with DPDT On-On-On sliders; these are probably available in the same form factor as what you've got. Having 3-way switches would open up a few more possibilities, including doing a Brian May type of scheme with OOP settings.
Another possibility is to use the third terminal of the tone pot to bring the middle pup into the mix, and use the three slide switches to control just the N and B pups- maybe on/off for each, with a phase switch for the third switch.
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J. Obeast
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Post by J. Obeast on Jun 10, 2014 21:03:34 GMT -5
Newey wrote: "One Idea: You could use the "binary tree" switching for two of the switches (provided, as John noted, that they are indeed double pole switches- you seem to indicate that they are.) For example, you could use two switches in a binary tree arrangement to give you, let's say, the N or B pups individually, both in series, and both in parallel. The third switch could then be used to turn the middle pickup on/off."
I like that idea of the Binary Tree for the two outside p'ups & a separate on-off switch for the middle p'up. The sliders are DPDT on-on with 6 eyelets. I'd rather not shop for new switches
What is the best version of the BT to use, and how to wire the middle to best effect (least noise)? I don't need to be able to turn off all pickups.
BTW, on the SD drawing, the Tone pot has a .022 μf cap. I currently have a .0473μf 'chiclet' poly film cap in that position. Will the difference in value render the tone control obnoxious? I used the same .0473μf 'chiclet' poly film cap in a Squier JM build, and it seems workable. Thanks, J Obeast
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Post by newey on Jun 10, 2014 22:33:51 GMT -5
Here's my take on how to do this. Vol and tone control wiring is omitted and is assumed to be std master V and T wiring. While I think this is correct, better let someone vet it before you start any solder flinging. And here's the truth table: The .047 cap will probably be fine, it's largely a matter of your preference.
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J. Obeast
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Post by J. Obeast on Jun 11, 2014 0:37:40 GMT -5
Thanks, Newey, that really looks like a plan. What are the red & white leads on each pickup shown? Is that what you would do with HBs, shorting those leads? Anyhow, each SC p'up has just a beginning and end lead ("- &+"). I would arrange the connections so that there is a physical correspondence of p'ups to switches, so I don't get confused when playing. I'll see if anyone proffers any tweaks to your design, and implement it soon as there is some feedback. The guitar neck and body finish need to set up for a while so I have plenty of time to se what input this garners. Again, thanks for helping out. Obeast
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Post by newey on Jun 11, 2014 5:43:01 GMT -5
The wire colors are SD colors, not sure what you have- I just cut/pasted some pickup representations to fit. So, you'll have to correlate to your pickups. If they're not HBs, then the black and green wires are all you need to worry about.
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J. Obeast
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Post by J. Obeast on Jun 11, 2014 10:44:02 GMT -5
Yep, what I figured. I have old Teisco single coils for B & N and an old Strat p'pup for Middle.
Your drawing shows a BT array which looks like other ones I've seen, and the wiring for Parallel 3rd p'up answers my questions about that. Thanks!
Later thoughts:
THe Teisco p'ups have red & white leads plus a ground shield. AM I right assuming the red is 'hot' & the white "-" i.e., going to the 'start' of the p'up coil? That's how I have wired it now that I have attempted the first execution of the drawing above. I haven't completed it because the M p'up lead goes through a holerouted in the body which is still undergoing french polishing. J
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Post by newey on Jun 11, 2014 22:04:05 GMT -5
The purple wire at the lower end of switch C (the mid on/off switch) is really superfluous. I put it in to short the mid pup to itself when not in use, which is a good practice for noise. But, even without the purple jumper, both ends of the pickup are completely disconnected when in the "off" position, so it probably will make zero difference. You can save the bit of wire.
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J. Obeast
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Post by J. Obeast on Jun 11, 2014 22:22:05 GMT -5
Thanks, Newey, but I already soldered it. How about the red/white mystery of Teisco p'up leads?
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Post by newey on Jun 11, 2014 22:55:01 GMT -5
So long as you wire both Teiscos the same way, they'll be in phase and will work fine. The issue will be with the middle pup which is of a different brand. Your choices are: 1)Test the middle pickup (and at least one of the Teiscos) using the screwdriver pull-off test2) Wire the middle one way (pick one), and pray that it's in phase with the Teiscos. You have 50-50 odds of getting it right the first time. If it's wrong, you'll have to open up the patient again and swap the wires on the mid pup around. The bare shield wire always goes to ground, and is not one of the two signal-carrying wires we are discussing here.
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J. Obeast
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Post by J. Obeast on Jun 12, 2014 0:14:33 GMT -5
Is it best to ground the shield to the jack sleeve? Seems there is a natural limit to how many ground wires can be soldered to the V pot case. The Binary Tree scheme has me bundling a thick trunk of wires off the switch cluster. Hope it fits through my bondo bottleneck in the cavity, where I widened the area for pickguard screws (keeping the pg small as possible to show more lacquered wood of the face.)
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Post by newey on Jun 12, 2014 5:18:55 GMT -5
Ultimately, all grounds have to go to the jack sleeve. I dislike soldering to the backs of pots, so I usually use a "star ground". This can be a metal washer or a ring connector, anything that you can solder to. All the grounds are collected at that point, then a single wire from there to the jack sleeve.
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J. Obeast
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Post by J. Obeast on Jun 12, 2014 11:43:49 GMT -5
I was thinking of making a ground bus like I have seen in some guitars, two bare solid wires twisted together and silvered, with ground leads attached where necessary. Should only have to be a couple inches long as space is so limited in there. Will consider your suggestion as well – may be easier to connect radially than linearly.
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Post by newey on Jun 12, 2014 16:07:14 GMT -5
I have used a ground buss as well- same idea, essentially. I used a straightened paper clip, which was then screwed into the side of the cavity so as to connect to the copper shielding. This is on my "4caster", which had lots of grounds to deal with (it features 4 SC pickups).
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J. Obeast
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Post by J. Obeast on Jun 12, 2014 19:57:30 GMT -5
I used a medium gauge solid stripped wire, bridging jack sleeve lug, T & V pot case grounds and connecting all p'up 'start' leads as well as bridge stud ground. Least messy wiring harness I have yet assembled. Fingers crossed as to whether it works. May be a while before I get to find out, but I am optimistic this time. Thanks again John H & Newey!
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J. Obeast
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Post by J. Obeast on Jun 16, 2014 3:12:11 GMT -5
I made a preliminary test of the assembly (without middle p'up soldered in yet), just plugging in and holding it close to another guitar's vibrating strings, and apparently it works! I can't tell about many combinations yet but there is a signal out of each p'up and no buzz, so it looks like a success. Thanks again to John H & Newey!
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Post by newey on Jun 16, 2014 5:31:55 GMT -5
That's an interesting testing procedure. A multimeter works much better, however, and is essential for troubleshooting things. With a meter, you can test that each switch position actually works as intended prior to stringing things up.
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