New scheme with a little help of my guitar nut friends ;)

[studiostriver]

Hi to all guitar freaks out there. Salute.

I`m not being on this forum from my last project.I`m know into new one and once again I need your clever wiring skills to help me creating a new scheme.
This time addition to already made one.

I`ve found very good wiring scheme that use PRS H/H guitar.I`m sure without a doubt that you are familiar with.Here it is:



So I`ll be using Schaller Version P For PRS with 5-way-switch

guitar-parts.biz/hp411310/Megaswitches.htm



I would like to add 3 things:

1.one switch(I assume it would be DPT on/off/on) that would split bridge (regular left) coil and (right) neck which is missing from this scheme.
2.since my guitar have know installed EMG`s and battery space is installed in guitar,i wanted to try active EMG phase switch Emg Pi2

www.emgpickups.com/accessories/guitar-accessories/phase/pi2.html

,which they saying works also with passive pickups.
3.and one more thing,volume would be The Shadow Kill pot SH 124-500 (500kOhm) for humbucker pickups

us.shadow-electronics.com/products/electric_guitar/main/sh_124



That`s it. I hope someone could implant my suggestions into PRS H/H scheme mentioned above?
Thanks in advance for all who will help to make this vision into reality.

Best regards.

[haydukej]

Hey SusStudio,
Please hold for more experienced personnel. In the mean time, I'm leaning towards the parts and pickups you currently have are not going to be able to get you the results you're desiring.

1. I'm not entirely sure you can use the EMGs with a Schaller Version P switch. Those tend to like 4-conductor pickups from what I know. Which EMG pickups do you actually have?
2. The first option you're wanting, I think we can assume is full neck HB and full bridge wired together in parallel (like the middle position on stock les paul).
3. The Shadow Kill switch should be easy enough to wire in once we figure more details out of your initial setup and best route to go.

In short, I think you'll need a new selector switch to replace the Schaller P Switch, but let's hold off until someone else chimes in.

Also, I imagine the powers that be might want this thread moved to the general Electronics & Wiring thread instead of the Design Modules.

[studiostriver]

Jun 27, 2014 16:24:22 GMT -5 haydukej said:

Hey SusStudio,
Please hold for more experienced personnel. In the mean time, I'm leaning towards the parts and pickups you currently have are not going to be able to get you the results you're desiring.

1. I'm not entirely sure you can use the EMGs with a Schaller Version P switch. Those tend to like 4-conductor pickups from what I know. Which EMG pickups do you actually have?
2. The first option you're wanting, I think we can assume is full neck HB and full bridge wired together in parallel (like the middle position on stock les paul).
3. The Shadow Kill switch should be easy enough to wire in once we figure more details out of your initial setup and best route to go.

In short, I think you'll need a new selector switch to replace the Schaller P Switch, but let's hold off until someone else chimes in.

Also, I imagine the powers that be might want this thread moved to the general Electronics & Wiring thread instead of the Design Modules.

Hi,i screw where to put a post,sorry.I hope admin(s) will move where it belongs.


Know,I will swap this EMG`s originally installed on guitar with passive pickups four conductor of course.
You can see from my first link the photo of exact scheme.I like very much that every combination use different coil combination.As I sad it only missed standard bridge and split coil which I tend to upgrade along with Pi2 and kill switch.

Thanks for your feedback.

[newey]

SStrider-

I have some of the same concerns as haydukej.

First, the Shadow Kill pot is no problem to fit into this scheme. You simply pick which pot you wish it to replace, and wire it in according to its instructions. It is a totally separate module from the pickup switching (it goes into place down the line from all that). So, that part is easily done and presents no theoretical or practical problems.

As to the rest, first off, why would you want to spend the money for the EMG active phase switch? Since you're using passive pickups, a regular DPDT will suffice for the phase switch and will be a lot cheaper and less complex- no battery needed!

I didn't see anything in the EMG ad copy that specifically said the switch works with passive pickups, nor did I see any wiring diagram for passive use. Mind you, I don't doubt that it would work with passive pups. But the only advantage this set up has, so EMG says, is that it maintains noiseless operation with EMG pickups when switching the phase of coil-split pickups. I don't know exactly how they accomplish that, but I can imagine with active pups and active circuitry it can be done. I doubt it would do the same with passive pickups.

If we assume that all the PRS settings are hum-cancelling (I suspect they are), then when the phase switch is activated when the 5-way is in positions 2-3-4, you won't have hum-cancellation. This may, or may not, be a large concern to you. But I suspect the active phase circuitry won't change that.

Finally:

one switch(I assume it would be DPT on/off/on) that would split bridge (regular left) coil and (right) neck which is missing from this scheme.

I'm not clear on what you want this switch to do. If you're talking about the switch combining the bridge left-hand coil (as the coils are shown in the PRS diagram)with the neck right-hand coil, the 5-way switch already combines those two coils, in parallel, at position 2.

[studiostriver]

Jun 27, 2014 19:41:50 GMT -5 newey said:

SStrider-

I have some of the same concerns as haydukej.

First, the Shadow Kill pot is no problem to fit into this scheme. You simply pick which pot you wish it to replace, and wire it in according to its instructions. It is a totally separate module from the pickup switching (it goes into place down the line from all that). So, that part is easily done and presents no theoretical or practical problems.

As to the rest, first off, why would you want to spend the money for the EMG active phase switch? Since you're using passive pickups, a regular DPDT will suffice for the phase switch and will be a lot cheaper and less complex- no battery needed!

I didn't see anything in the EMG ad copy that specifically said the switch works with passive pickups, nor did I see any wiring diagram for passive use. Mind you, I don't doubt that it would work with passive pups. But the only advantage this set up has, so EMG says, is that it maintains noiseless operation with EMG pickups when switching the phase of coil-split pickups. I don't know exactly how they accomplish that, but I can imagine with active pups and active circuitry it can be done. I doubt it would do the same with passive pickups.

If we assume that all the PRS settings are hum-cancelling (I suspect they are), then when the phase switch is activated when the 5-way is in positions 2-3-4, you won't have hum-cancellation. This may, or may not, be a large concern to you. But I suspect the active phase circuitry won't change that.

Finally:

one switch(I assume it would be DPT on/off/on) that would split bridge (regular left) coil and (right) neck which is missing from this scheme.

I'm not clear on what you want this switch to do. If you're talking about the switch combining the bridge left-hand coil (as the coils are shown in the PRS diagram)with the neck right-hand coil, the 5-way switch already combines those two coils, in parallel, at position 2.

Hi newey ,at beginning just to say the configuration : HH with 1 volume, 1 tone , 5-way switch



The only reason why I would use EMG Pi2 is because I already have battery installed in my ESP guitar I thought,well maybe I should use that for other purpose, and phase switch come to my mind cause on their website they are talking that is works superior than normal phase in/out switch.At least that is what they sad.

Here it says : "Pi2 PHASE INVERTER
(ACTIVE/PASSIVE PICKUP INPUTS)"

www.emgpickups.com/media/productfile/P/i/Pi2_0230-0148B.pdf

,and they have"Diagram #3
Volume / Volume / Pi2
Master Tone (Passive)"

,which led me to conclusion it would works for passives.But just in case I would send email to EMG and ask them just to be sure.



And as you know already from my previous post.I`m far from guitar technician...Hm this scheme starting to confuse me a little bit.

www.stewmac.com/How-To/Online_Resources/Pickups_and_Electronics/P-Model_Megaswitch.html


Maybe this switch will works better for me?

www.stewmac.com/How-To/Online_Resources/Pickups_and_Electronics/Super_SwitchI1.html


On position 2 on this P-Mega way scheme if I understand it right it is combination of bridge left and neck right at the same time,and with additional switch I wanted to have just single coil left bridge,and other combination single coil right neck.So to add single coil option which is no is not included on scheme.




The easiest way to explain it non-technically for me would be to make HH configuration where 5 way switch would work:

1. bridge humbucker
2. left-hand bridge and right-hand neck coil
3. right-hand bridge and left-hand single coil
4. right-hand bridge and right-hand coil
4. neck humbucker

Noise cancelling for all positions would be desirable but if it is not possible then I could live without that.

And with additional 1 or 2 switches (depending how it will work) for regular split single coil left bridge and right neck.
+of course at the end with phase switch and kill switch.


Sorry if I`m being pain in the butt,but I only have a vision.I have no clue how thing really works and what can and what can`t be done.



But I hope at the time we`ll came with something out of my mumbling jumbling.

Thanks for your help as always.

[newey]

The easiest way to explain it non-technically for me would be to make HH configuration where 5 way switch would work:

1. bridge humbucker
2. left-hand bridge and right-hand neck coil
3. right-hand bridge and left-hand single coil
4. right-hand bridge and right-hand coil
4. neck humbucker

Noise cancelling for all positions would be desirable but if it is not possible then I could live without that.

And with additional 1 or 2 switches (depending how it will work) for regular split single coil left bridge and right neck.

OK, I think I'm now more confused than I was before. We seem to have hit a language barrier.

Specifically, I don't understand:

3. right-hand bridge and left-hand single coil
4. right-hand bridge and right-hand coil

Nor do I understand:

And with additional 1 or 2 switches (depending how it will work) for regular split single coil left bridge and right neck.

are these two switches splitting the coils of the neck and bridge separately? In other words, one switch to split the neck and the other to split the bridge? Do they split the coils at all times, regardless of the position of the 5-way switch?

Either 5-way switch will work for what you want, although the wiring for each will be different. The Stew-Mac article you linked to is simply describing how to test the HBs for correct polarity so as to get the PRS switching with all the combinations hum cancelling. I raised that issue earlier. The gist of the Stew-mac article is that it may be necessary to rotate one of the HBs 180 degrees to get the polarities right.

I did miss the passive diagram for the EMG phase switch. I am still not convinced that there is any advantage to it when used with passive pickups, as opposed to just using a regular DPDT switch.


Perhaps a diagram showing which coils are operating in the various switch positions would help.

[studiostriver]

Ehh.
I think the biggest problem in communication is terminology of technical details about pickups and wiring.I almost 90% of time communicate very well.


For this:
-------------------------------------------------
3. right-hand bridge and left-hand single coil
4. right-hand bridge and right-hand coil
--------------------------------------------------
I thought:
3.It Is the same as it is on the scheme on 3rd position above.So that is right coil side of bridge humbucker with left coil side of neck humbucker at the same time.
4.This time little bit different,following the same logic I though about right coil side of bridge humbucker with right coil side of neck humbucker at the same time.

If I sad it in inappropriate way,please correct me so I can stop with confusion.


And know for these :
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And with additional 1 or 2 switches (depending how it will work) for regular split single coil left bridge and right neck.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I wrote "depending how it will work"so what you suggest we will try that in other words.
Idea was to coil split just one humbucker at the time.So if I on 5-way switch choose 1st position and use additional switch to split this bridge humbucker (left coil side more towards to bridge).
The same stuff for neck,choose 5th position on 5-way switch and use add.switch to split neck humbucker (right coil side more towards to neck)

newey
I did miss the passive diagram for the EMG phase switch. I am still not convinced that there is any advantage to it when used with passive pickups, as opposed to just using a regular DPDT switch.

Perhaps a diagram showing which coils are operating in the various switch positions would help.

I`m not convinced either. But as long I have one battery free space it is not bad to try.But if you think there is no way that it will sound any kind better then regular phase in/out I will then use regular way.



Ahh.I just wanted for my ESP LTD H-1007FR to try Stratocaster type of 5 way switching into two HH and to make on every position different coil combination,and to addition regular coil splitting and phase in/out.

And to make combination that will be ease to use for constant playing and changing positions,but I guess that English is not on my side.



As always I`m opened to any suggestion(s).


And I hope I was a little more understandable this time?
Best regards.

[newey]

OK, I think I get what you're after now.

Rather than referring to the coils as "right" and "left", we should use "inner" and "outer". Thus, we have B_inner, B_outer, N_inner, and N_outer

4.This time little bit different,following the same logic I though about right coil side of bridge humbucker with right coil side of neck humbucker at the same time.

This combination won't be hum-cancelling. If we make this combination be hum-cancelling, then position #3 won't be.

If you use a Superswitch, we can do what you want at position 4. It may be possible to do it with the Schaller Megaswitch P, but we'd have to work out the switch logic to know for sure whether it can be done with that switch.

SO, assuming I'm reading you right, what you're after is:

1) A HH guitar with the PRS coil switching, but with an alternative at position #4. Instead of the 2 inner coils in parallel (B_inner + N_inner, as the diagram shows it) you want the B_outer + N_inner.

2) A phase switch on one of the HBs, which may possibly be an EMG active unit. Let's say, for discussion purposes, that it reverses the neck pickup.

3) A bridge coil cut switch and a neck coil cut switch. While single pole switches could be used, you should use double pole switches. Specifically, you'll need 2 DPDT On-On switches. I suggest getting DPDT switches since the cost difference from SPDT ones is minimal, and I'm thinking we just might need those extra poles for some fancy coil-switching so as to maximize hum canceling.

4) Master V and T controls, with the Shadow kill pot. Let's say, for discussion purposes, that it goes on the volume pot, since usually the V pot is closer to one's hand.

Is that it?

[studiostriver]

Jun 28, 2014 22:10:51 GMT -5 newey said:

OK, I think I get what you're after now.

Rather than referring to the coils as "right" and "left", we should use "inner" and "outer". Thus, we have B_inner, B_outer, N_inner, and N_outer

4.This time little bit different,following the same logic I though about right coil side of bridge humbucker with right coil side of neck humbucker at the same time.

This combination won't be hum-cancelling. If we make this combination be hum-cancelling, then position #3 won't be.

If you use a Superswitch, we can do what you want at position 4. It may be possible to do it with the Schaller Megaswitch P, but we'd have to work out the switch logic to know for sure whether it can be done with that switch.

SO, assuming I'm reading you right, what you're after is:

1) A HH guitar with the PRS coil switching, but with an alternative at position #4. Instead of the 2 inner coils in parallel (B_inner + N_inner, as the diagram shows it) you want the B_outer + N_inner.

2) A phase switch on one of the HBs, which may possibly be an EMG active unit. Let's say, for discussion purposes, that it reverses the neck pickup.

3) A bridge coil cut switch and a neck coil cut switch. While single pole switches could be used, you should use double pole switches. Specifically, you'll need 2 DPDT On-On switches. I suggest getting DPDT switches since the cost difference from SPDT ones is minimal, and I'm thinking we just might need those extra poles for some fancy coil-switching so as to maximize hum canceling.

4) Master V and T controls, with the Shadow kill pot. Let's say, for discussion purposes, that it goes on the volume pot, since usually the V pot is closer to one's hand.

Is that it?

You are right about everything:) Ok I will in future use inner/outer terminology.



If it is hard to make all combination hum cancelling I can change to the different combination thou.



We can leave all as it is on PRS scheme and just swap 3rd position with both humbucker B/N turned on,so that way I can have more combination and use add.coil split switches on that position too,not just on 1st and 5th.

With everything else mentioned above,I totally agree.

[newey]

Ok I will in future use inner/outer terminology.

Yeah, because sooner or later, one of those damned lefties will come along and read this . . .

As I envision this, the coil cut switches will operate regardless of the position of the 5-way switch. My only question mark concerns position 3 on the 5-way, where we have coils in series. Not sure how that will work until we put pen to paper, so to speak. That's one reason I advised getting DPDT switches just in case . . .

If you want to go with the straight PRS wiring and not alter position 4, then you can use the Megaswitch rather than the Superswitch, as that is the wiring the Megaswitch was designed to do. The advantage will be hum-cancelling in all positions, provided that you first check the polarity of your HBs as described in the Stew-Mac article above.

While hum-cancelling may not be a big deal to you, it is disconcerting when all the positions are relatively quiet, then you switch to one which isn't quiet. If you use a lot of gain/distortion, the difference will only be magnified.

So I advise going with the original PRS scheme. The tonal difference between having N_inner versus N_outer is likely to be so subtle as to be sonically indistinguishable. Switching between coils at the neck position usually doesn't change the tone much, as compared to doing the same at the bridge position. Given that the tonal difference is small (or non-existent), you might as well keep everything hum-cancelling if possible.

[studiostriver]

Hi newey.

I am using 7 string guitar(s) mainly,which are tuned down to one whole step(A). I`m in metal music,you can be sure I use plenty of distortion,but a lot of clean and overdrive low gain crunchy solos as well. So noise cancelling is a big deal to me since I using this guitar for my music studio needs.


As coil splitting concern I ordering very special custom made pickups which mix 2 different magnets for bridge,different for neck and many other mojo stuff.One to me interesting feature on my suggestion is on bridge humbucker inner side of coil is gonna be wound more then outer and,on neck reverse so I think on all positions sound is gonna be very different.So outer side of neck (closest to the fret) will sound significantly more spanky and meaty.More true single Strat alike.


Is suggest to leave everything the same as PRS scheme (including 4th position),but only to change 3rd position to bridge and neck humbacker both turned on at the same time.
Combinations that way seems to me very logical and straty of some sort and with that noise cancellation is for sure on all positions.

Is that seems right to you?


1.Bridge humbacker
2.Bridge _inner and neck _outer coil
3.Bridge and neck humbacker
4.Bridge _outer and neck _inner coil
5.Neck humbacker

[newey]

If the 2 coils of the HBs aren't identical, then yes, splitting at the neck may produce a different sound. I was assuming std HBs with identical coils.

If position 3 is to be HH, then as I said previously, the Superswitch can do that for sure, with the Megaswitch it's a "maybe" until we figure out the switch logic.

Earlier here, we worked out the internal logic of the Megaswitch "S", but I don't recall we've ever looked at the other models.

[studiostriver]

Jun 30, 2014 4:57:37 GMT -5 newey said:

If the 2 coils of the HBs aren't identical, then yes, splitting at the neck may produce a different sound. I was assuming std HBs with identical coils.

If position 3 is to be HH, then as I said previously, the Superswitch can do that for sure, with the Megaswitch it's a "maybe" until we figure out the switch logic.

Earlier here, we worked out the internal logic of the Megaswitch "S", but I don't recall we've ever looked at the other models.

To me personally it doesn't matter what switch we use.So if you have idea of something that will works better in any way feel free to suggest it please.
I`m opened to anything really.

Since pure Bridge/Neck HH works always good for aggressive music style I want to try to make HH combination to works in 5-way(or more if exist),and to have Stratocaster feel and sound from them.In other words to have nice pallet of clean and organic crunch sounds on my disposal.


Cheers.

[newey]

I can go ahead and rough out a sketch for you using a superswitch, although it may take me a day or three to get to it.

[studiostriver]

Jun 30, 2014 11:27:04 GMT -5 newey said:

I can go ahead and rough out a sketch for you using a superswitch, although it may take me a day or three to get to it.

Please do not hurry.I can wait no matter when.Do it in 10 days and I`m happy.
Best regards,
Dado.

[newey]

StudioStriver gave me a gentle nudge via PM to get him a diagram. Now, SS, this still needs to be double-checked before you start wiring it. A couple of notes:

First, the coil cuts at positions 2 and 4 will not be hum-cancelling as shown (Because you wanted inner + outer coils for both of those positions). But we can make them hum-cancelling by a simple rewiring, in conjunction with rotating one of the pickups 180 degrees. If you want to rotate one of the HBs, then instead of positions 2 and 4 being jumpered together on SW-3 poles A and C, you would wire A2 to C4, and wire A4 to C2.

Second, the wire colors shown are EMG, but double check the colors against your actual pickups to be sure.

Third, note that throwing the neck phase switch will have the effect of swapping the coil that gets cut from the neck pickup- thereby making the hum-cancelling SC combos non-hum-cancelling, and vice versa.



Sorry, I'm not really happy with this diagram, there's too much spaghetti for it to be readable. And, again, let's let someone double-check it first.

[studiostriver]

First, the coil cuts at positions 2 and 4 will not be hum-cancelling as shown (Because you wanted inner + outer coils for both of those positions). But we can make them hum-cancelling by a simple rewiring, in conjunction with rotating one of the pickups 180 degrees. If you want to rotate one of the HBs, then instead of positions 2 and 4 being jumpered together on SW-3 poles A and C, you would wire A2 to C4, and wire A4 to C2.

Yes I will gladly do that.Hum cancelling is very desirable.I would just need to inform the guy who making pickups for me.

Second, the wire colors shown are EMG, but double check the colors against your actual pickups to be sure.

These pickups are custom made,so I will have to ask to be exactly sure which is which.

Third, note that throwing the neck phase switch will have the effect of swapping the coil that gets cut from the neck pickup- thereby making the hum-cancelling SC combos non-hum-cancelling, and vice versa.

So you saying that using phase switch I can`t get hum cancelling if I make 2/4 swapping pickup to 180 degrees?Or I did not get it right?


Thanks for all help bro.

[newey]

So you saying that using phase switch I can`t get hum cancelling if I make 2/4 swapping pickup to 180 degrees?Or I did not get it right?

Let's be clear. First, this is only an issue when you have the HBs switched to SC mode; when you have the Full HBs at position 3, they will of course be hum-cancelling, regardless of the phase switching.

When switched to single coil mode via S1, or when in single coil operation by way of the 5-way switch (i.e., set to positions 2 or 4), then the pickups will be hum-cancelling in one position of the phase switch, but not with the phase switch flipped to the other position.

You can have them hum-cancel when the two coils are in phase, or you can have them hum-cancel when the two are out of phase, but you can't have both, at least not with this scheme as presently constructed.

And, we still need to have someone eyeball this diagram. "Checkers to Aisle 11, please!"

[JohnH]

Ive been looking at the diagram while sitting on a cold railway station platform. I see a couple of issues:

If S1 is operated, the output is cut in position 2 and 4 since ground gets connected to hot. Can be fixed though if the black/white pairs go straight to the 5 way common poles at A and C, and use S1 to connect the relevant 1 and 5 lugs to ground or hot
Tone pot to use other outer lug

Also, on the main switch, the A C end is the end to be placed nearer to the bridge.
could reduce wires by having just one from 5 way to volume pot, and make the other hot connections just between switch lugs

[newey]

Thanks, John, I'll post corrections when I get a minute.

[studiostriver]

I just wanna add,thanks guys for making this happen,i would never in a world could make of find someone who can make my visions into reality.Music is my everlasting passion and I am very thankful to you.
Cheers.

[newey]

Here's version 2, as per JohnH's suggestions:

[JohnH]

Hmmm..tricky. still issues here. Take position 4, with S1 connected down. Ground is connected by s1 to the blue wire and the 5 way is taking that to hot. So no sound there. Will consider further..

[JohnH]

....I think it might be best if sw1 is active only in posigions 1 and 5, to create the pure single-coil sounds, and not have it mess with pos 2 and 4. Probably best to keep it off pos 3 as well, since splitting in this podition doesnt give anything good beyond what is available at 2 and 4.

In which case, if the blue wire from sw1 is moved from lug A to the adjacent lug 5, and the purple wire from sw1 moves from C to the corresponding lug 1.

Best to look at it drawn like that to check

[newey]

OK, I see where that would solve the problem. Question is, is it to Studiostriver's liking? Not quite exactly what he was after, but pretty close.

As I look at this more, I can see where I "oversimplified" the problem of incorporating the autosplit on the 5-way with the separate coil split switch.

I'm wondering (just thinking out loud here, so to speak) whether this could be realized better if SW-1 were a 3-position On-Off-On switch, and was then used as a "mode switch", to select either pole A or C on the superswitch, and thus selecting either of two sets of SC sounds, with the center "off" position just giving the 5-way selections from poles B and D. I may have to take a look at that as a possible alternative solution.

[studiostriver]

Aug 25, 2014 22:13:50 GMT -5 newey said:

OK, I see where that would solve the problem. Question is, is it to Studiostriver's liking? Not quite exactly what he was after, but pretty close.

As I look at this more, I can see where I "oversimplified" the problem of incorporating the autosplit on the 5-way with the separate coil split switch.

I'm wondering (just thinking out loud here, so to speak) whether this could be realized better if SW-1 were a 3-position On-Off-On switch, and was then used as a "mode switch", to select either pole A or C on the superswitch, and thus selecting either of two sets of SC sounds, with the center "off" position just giving the 5-way selections from poles B and D. I may have to take a look at that as a possible alternative solution.

Hello there guys.
If you ask me if it is possible I would like to have split at all positions,but if it is not possible then on 1,3,5 would be just fine as well.If there is no way to make it work then i'll have to accept 1,5 only.There is no other way.