H-X-H Tele - Help wiring the volume controls + 4 way switch

[dontbethatguy]

Hi all,

Thanks anyone who takes time to read this, I'm definitely a bit out of my depth here!

TL;DR 4-way, 2 Humbucker, 2 push-pull (series-parallel) volume, no tone

I am building a Telecaster with 2 Humbuckers (DiMarzio Pro Track Neck, and DiMarzio Transition Bridge) - Both DiMarzio 4-Wire Pickups

The switch I am using is:
Switch

What I want to build is a 4 way switched guitar with:
Position 1 - Bridge only
Position 2 - Bridge + Neck Parallel
Position 3 - Neck only
Position 4 - Bridge + Neck in Series

plus:
Push-pull series/parallel volume pot per pickup (pushed down as series, pulled up as parallel)

Wiring the push-pull DPDT switch seemed like it should be easy enough, since it's on the instructions for the dual-sound:
DiMarzio Pickup Instructions

From there, I thought I could use this schematic from the Seymour Duncan site, but I'm having trouble piecing it all together because of the grounding and the pots.

My questions were:
a) Is what I'm thinking even possible?
b) Am I on the right track?
c) How do I wire from the DPDT switch on the push/pull pots to the actual terminals of the pot?
d) Are both pots wired the same?
e) Which terminals of the pot connect to the switch, and how?
f) Which parts get grounded?

*POST EDITED for clarity*

Here is where I got up to (sorry about the quality):


Once again, thanks to anyone who takes the time to read this.

[sumgai]

donnie,

Nov 3, 2014 3:42:28 GMT -5 dontbethatguy said:

My questions were:
Is what I'm thinking even possible? Am I on the right track?
How do I wire from the DPDT switch on the push/pull pots to the actual terminals of the pot?
Are both pots wired the same?
Which terminals are the +ve / -ve of the pot?
Which parts get grounded?

In order:

a) Yes it's possible, and has been done several times, right here in the NutzHouse.
b) The best I can say is that at least you are on a track... the NutzTrack!
c) That requires a wiring diagram, something I'm not able to generate any more. Don't worry, others will be along shortly to give you a boost over this hurdle.
d) Pretty much, yeah.
e) +ve/-ve generally refer to steady-state voltage supplies, not to AC signals that are anything but steady. Hence, taking your intended meaning, and not the literal one, you've asked the same thing as c); you want to know how things are hooked up. Hang in there Sparky, we'll get to that in a post or two.
f) Err, several of them, but not all of them? Again, whoever trots out a diagram will be able to explain what's what, to your satisfaction. If by some chance you're still unclear, just keep asking; we'll keep trying different ways to answer until you get your "AHA!" moment.

Now for the kickers.... First off, do you really want to flick your 4-way switch and operate two p/p knobs, just to go from series to parallel? That seems like a lot of hassle, and the chances of you getting it right every time, right in the middle of a tune, while playing to a packed house.... that's gotta be some pretty high odds, doncha think?

If it were me, and it's not but we're just supposing here... I'd make a Master Volume and a Blend control. This has been done for ages in the guitar world, and is dirt simple. Search our dungeonsSchematic forums for examples, particularly those by JohnH, I'm sure you'll find sumpin' to getcha goin'.

HTH





sumgai

[newey]

DBTG-

sumgai was remiss, so first of all:

Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2!


First off, to sg:

Now for the kickers.... First off, do you really want to flick your 4-way switch and operate two p/p knobs, just to go from series to parallel?

He's got the P/P pots for intra-HB series/parallel, the 4-way gives inter-pickup series/parallel.

Don't Bee-

You're on the right track here, and I think you're pretty close to stringing the various diagrams together into a unified whole. If you can do so, it will be quicker for us to review what you create than to draw something up for you from scratch. (This answers your first 2 questions, sort of.)

I'll take your remaining questions a bit out of order:

d) Are both pots wired the same?

Yes, because you're asking them to do the same thing, and given that the pickups are from the same maker and thus share the same wire color scheme.

e) Which terminals of the pot connect to the switch, and how?

Well, you have 3 switches, so let's be clear here. Think about the order of your components here. You want this to be:

Pickups- - >P/P switches for HB series/parallel - ->4-way switch - - -> V and T pots - - ->output jack

So, as shown on your diagram, you need to disconnect the jack from the 4-way switch- your V and T pots will go in between the two. They will be wired as in any regular Tele, indeed as in any guitar with a master V and T. Just as you've done with the other pieces here, you can find any diagram with a master V and T to use as a reference.

What may be causing you some mental grief here is this: A Push/Pull pot consists of a pot and a switch which are physically connected, but which are not necessarily electrically connected to one another, unless you wire them together. Here, they are not connected together directly- the 4-way switch goes in between the two elements.

[dontbethatguy]

Hi Newey, thanks for the welcome.

Well, you have 3 switches, so let's be clear here. Think about the order of your components here. You want this to be:



Pickups- - >P/P switches for HB series/parallel - ->4-way switch - - -> V and T pots - - ->output jack



So, as shown on your diagram, you need to disconnect the jack from the 4-way switch- your V and T pots will go in between the two. They will be wired as in any regular Tele, indeed as in any guitar with a master V and T. Just as you've done with the other pieces here, you can find any diagram with a master V and T to use as a reference.



What may be causing you some mental grief here is this: A Push/Pull pot consists of a pot and a switch which are physically connected, but which are not necessarily electrically connected to one another, unless you wire them together. Here, they are not connected together directly- the 4-way switch goes in between the two elements.

What I think I want is:

 Neck Pickup->Series/Para sw--->Neck Pickup Vol Pot-+
                                                    |
                                                    +---4 way sw---Output Jack
                                                    |
Bridge Pickup->Series/Para sw->Bridge Pickup Vol Pot-+

With this in mind, I had another go at the wiring diagram (in that I just stole ideas from around the forum) but I'm still really unsure on the grounding.



Am I getting closer?

[newey]

OK, my bad, I missed the part where you said you wanted individual volumes. You are correct, these will go between the P/P switches and the 4-way.

However, you have some problems after that. . .

Your pots are mis-wired. For each pot, wire the "hot" from the DPDT to the left-hand lug, and wire the center lug (the "wiper") to the 4-way. One wire in, one wire out, given that you are grounding the third lug to the back of the pot.

So, the two wires from the wipers become your neck "hot" and bridge "hot" to the 4-way. Now, look at the SD diagram for the 4-way. You will see that the ground for one pickup is permanently grounded to the back of the pot, but the other pickup has its ground going to the 4-way. This is necessary if you're going to have series wiring- one ground needs to get switched. So, just follow the SD diagram from there- but watch that you properly translate the wire colors to your DM colors!

Sent from my SM-G900V using proboards

[dontbethatguy]

Your pots are mis-wired. For each pot, wire the "hot" from the DPDT to the left-hand lug, and wire the center lug (the "wiper") to the 4-way. One wire in, one wire out, given that you are grounding the third lug to the back of the pot.

I must not understand something, I thought the red wire (hot on DM pickups) connects to the left-hand lug on my diagram and the wiper does go to the 4 way.

So, the two wires from the wipers become your neck "hot" and bridge "hot" to the 4-way. Now, look at the SD diagram for the 4-way. You will see that the ground for one pickup is permanently grounded to the back of the pot, but the other pickup has its ground going to the 4-way. This is necessary if you're going to have series wiring- one ground needs to get switched. So, just follow the SD diagram from there- but watch that you properly translate the wire colors to your DM colors!

If I'm not mistaken, on the SD Telecaster diagram, the "hot" of the bridge pickup goes to the back of the pot.

On my diagram everything is in DiMarzio colours, but I can make one with SD colours if that makes it easier to read.

I'm fairly confused right about now and I need to sleep (1am and work tomorrow!) but thanks for your help.

[newey]

Sorry, not meaning to confuse you. What I meant about the pots was that you have a connection from both the wiper to the switch and also from the left hand lug to the switch. You want one wire in, and only one out. The wire from the wipers of the pots will correspond to the white wires on the SD diagram. The black wires on the SD diagram are the grounds. One goes to the back of a pot to be grounded, the other goes to the 4-way to be switched, as per the SD diagram.

Sent from my SM-G900V using proboards

[dontbethatguy]

Sorry, not meaning to confuse you. 

Please don't apologise! I really appreciate the help.

What I meant about the pots was that you have a connection from both the wiper to the switch and also from the left hand lug to the switch. You want one wire in, and only one out. The wire from the wipers of the pots will correspond to the white wires on the SD diagram. The black wires on the SD diagram are the grounds. One goes to the back of a pot to be grounded, the other goes to the 4-way to be switched, as per the SD diagram

I think I understood what you mean, here is my attempt.



Also I thought about what sumgai said, perhaps it's worth me considering simplifying the scheme, if the sounds aren't significantly different. Would it be worth considering a scheme like:

                        Neck Pickup series->-+

                                             |

                                             +---4 way sw->Master Vol Pot->Output Jack

                                             |

Bridge Pickup->Series/Para sw->Bridge Pickup -+


 



 

[newey]

DB-

Better, but still not correct. This is one of those things where, if I had time to crank out a quick diagram, you'd see it in a second. But you're very close . . .

And, all this is doable. While you are certainly entitled to switch gears here if you want to, I think your next iteration of this will be right.

OK, so you fixed the pot wiring. But you are still not switching the ground on the one pickup, which must be done for series wiring on the 4-way.

Look again at the SD diagram. Trace the 2 black wires. The bridge pickup black wire is grounded, permanently, to the back of a pot. The other black wire goes straight to one of the common terminals on the 4-way, so as to get switched. In some positions of the 4-way, that wire gets grounded. However, in the series position (lug #4), it gets connected to the other side of the switch, so as to make the series connection to the other pickup.

That's what you're missing here. You have both pickup grounds going to the backs of pots, neither is getting switched.

The SD diagram, if you study it, has a logic to it. One pole of the switch is the positive side, and switches the neck and bridge white wires (which correspond to your red ones). The other pole of the switch switches the ground wire of the neck pickup, either grounding that wire (for the parallel combinations) or switching it to the other half of the switch (for the series setting).

Give it one more go, and I think it will all start to make sense for you.

[dontbethatguy]

OK, so you fixed the pot wiring. But you are still not switching the ground on the one pickup, which must be done for series wiring on the 4-way.

Tracing it out vs the SD diagram I'm not really seeing what I'm doing wrong, sorry. I've got my neck pickup's pot body disconnected from the switch in P1, both pot grounds attached in 2 and 3, and in 4 the neck pickup's pot body connects to the hot terminal of the bridge pickup so they are in series. I'm not really understanding what's wrong. Maybe I'm just slow!

[sumgai]

donnie,

Here's a clue.... recognize that unless you take specific pains to do otherwise, both of those pot bodies will always be connected together, when mounted in your axe. That said, you shouldn't (can't, really) depend on a pot body as a signal point when switching said signal point. My thrust here, and newey's too, is that you need to switch the wire directly from the pickup and never attach it to a pot body first, then to a switch.

Here, let me illustrate, with a similar drawing (ignore the master V/T controls for the moment):





Note the important thing here is that the switch is effectively in the middle, between the two pickups. Trace it out, and see how it switches ground on one side (one Pole of the switch) and 'hot' on the other side (Pole). That's what newey's been driving you towards.

Once you've got that concept implemented in your drawing, you can add back in the local (or what newey called "intra-pickup") ser/par push-pull switches, they won't have any affect on the above scheme of things. Adding the two Volume pots is a bit more tricky, though. If that seems to be getting in your way, we can consult one of JohnH's many drawings on the topic, usually found in the General Schematics sub-Forum. Although not to take away from contributions by other members (and links to other sites around the web), but John has been rather prolific, over the years. One might think that this is one of his favorite mods.

HTH





sumgai

[dontbethatguy]

So if I understood correctly, I need to keep the pots grounded, but switch the neck pickup cold with the switch common.

[newey]

DBTG-

Looks like you've got it! But two sets of eyes are better than one, so let's let someone else sign off on this before you start soldering.

As an aside, the SD diagram isn't a very elegant way of wiring this, because it leaves the neck pickup "hanging from hot" in position #1 (bridge pickup only). It will work, but the hanging pickup coil could (not necessarily will, mind you, but could) potentially be a source for noise. There may well be an alternative wiring for the 4-way that would eliminate this potential. SD apparently feels it's not an issue.

[sumgai]

donnie,

I'll agree, your diagram now looks like it should work as you wish. But just to put the finishing touch on it...

Nov 5, 2014 10:39:34 GMT -5 newey said:

As an aside, the SD diagram isn't a very elegant way of wiring this, because it leaves the neck pickup "hanging from hot" in position #1 (bridge pickup only). It will work, but the hanging pickup coil could (not necessarily will, mind you, but could) potentially be a source for noise. There may well be an alternative wiring for the 4-way that would eliminate this potential. SD apparently feels it's not an issue.

First, I'm with newey on that bit about potential noise - in some environments, it'll be non-existant. But sure as Gawd made little green guitars, you'll go to play out in some bar, or at a friend's place, and Whoala! the noise will be present, in spades.

Fortunately, we can take one more step that will pretty much fix this. Your diagram is correct in delivering the combos you want, according to your first post. All you need to do now is simply place a jumper between S2a-1 and S2b-1. Assuming that your diagram's upper pickup is Neck, that pup's ground line (the green wire) will then be connected to the always-hot line, the one going to the jack. This will short the pickup completely, thus preventing, or at least greatly reducing the amount of, noise.

HTH, and post sound samples, or it didn't happen!




sumgai