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Post by thehushdown on Nov 16, 2014 0:51:23 GMT -5
Hello All! I'm working on my newest project guitar and I'd like to add a "blower switch" to my existing set up, but I'm having trouble figuring out how. This is an SSH style strat set up, 5-way switch, 2 Tones, and a push/pull Vol I'm utilizing as a coil tap for the bridge pick up. All the schematics I've found so far seem to have no reference to having a coil tap included, Can anyone help? Thanks ahead of time! Also just another random question, I have a vintage bumblebee cap i acquired a while ago and it now has developed a crack, will this affect it working properly? Thanks again!  this is exactly how its currently wired Attachments:
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Post by b4nj0 on Nov 16, 2014 8:12:06 GMT -5
You need to introduce another switch between the coil splitting switch and the bridge pickup. Trouble is, it will need to be a four pole change-over otherwise you will have to keep in mind as to which position the coil split switch has been left. Moreover I would suggest a break-before-make switch to avoid any chance of noisy switch actions although this may not be of concern in reality.
I suspect that is the reason that you cannot find a "blower switch" together with a circuit that includes a coil split facility?
1/ The pickup hot, coil split pair wires and "ground" connections will have to be re-directed, one to each of three of the new switch poles.
2/ The other side of the switch taking the pickup hot lead and ground wires directly to the jack socket, isolating the coil split leads.
3/ Finally, you need to use the fourth pole to break the connection between the volume pot output tag and the hot tag on the jack socket. This is to avoid "hanging" pickups.
You live and learn! I had to Google "blower switch" in this context to find out what it was. I don't know whether any of the more experienced Nutz can make a better (ie, simpler!) suggestion because this does seem hard going to me! As an example, you could wire it for master tone and use a 6 pole 2 way rotary switch instead?
e&oe
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Post by newey on Nov 16, 2014 9:08:04 GMT -5
hushdown:
Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2!
b4nj0 has in mind one definition of "blower switch", but before we go any further, we need to clarify exactly what is wanted, as folks have used the terminology rather loosely, both here and elsewhere a'web.
Some use the term "blower" to mean a switch that bypasses all the V and T controls, sending whatever pickups are selected at the 5-way directly to output. This increases output and increases brightness, since the resistance of the three pots is taken out of circuit.
Others have used the term to mean a switch that puts the bridge pickup "on" and runs it directly to the output, bypassing the V and T and bypassing the 5-way switch. This sort of set-up has also been called a "solo switch", since it is used to get the bridge pup "on" instantly for soloing, and also directly to the output for increased volume and brightness.
If hushdown means the second of the two descriptions above, this is easily accomplished with a simple DPDT switch. It can be either a toggle-style switch or a P/P pot (or, potentiallly, other types, like a slide switch if desired). This switch would be interposed between the bridge pickup and the 5-way switch. The bridge "hot" connection to the 5-way is broken by one pole of the switch, while the second pole breaks the connection between the 5-way switch and the output.
To do so, wire the bridge black "hot" wire to one common lug of the switch; one throw then goes to the 5-way switch bridge lug as the bridge is currently wired, while the other throw goes to the output jack "hot". The wire going from the common terminals of the 5-way to the volume pot then is wired to the other common lug of the DPDT switch; one throw is then connected to the volume pot "hot" so that the 5-way is connected normally when the switch is thrown to the 5-way side, the other throw is simply disconnected from everything, to disconnect the 5-way switch from the output when the switch is thrown to the "blower" setting.
If the first description above is what is wanted, the switch then is interposed between the 5-way and the output jack, bypassing the volume pot. If the guitar had a master V and T, that would be all that is required. However, because the standard strat wiring has the tone pots connected off of the 5-way switch, the tone pots would still be wired to ground from the 5-way, and thus would still be loading the circuit. That's not really a problem, but if one wants the full "blower effect", so to speak, then it would also be necessary to switch two tone controls in/out of the circuit, requiring a 3-pole switch. Since 3-pole double-throw switches are not readily available, that means using a 4PDT switch.
I have to disagree with b4nj0. I don't see the coil split as presenting a problem or requiring more switching. Regardless of which of the two versions is the one hushdown wants, either way, we are simply switching the output, whether of the bridge pickup itself, or of the 5-way as a whole. Either way, we get whichever coils are "on" from the bridge pickup; if the coil switch is set to split the bridge, one would have a single-coil "blower", and if set the other way, a HB blower.
As to the Bumblebee cap, if the existing tone control functions properly, then the cap is fine and does not need to be replaced. While one can read volumes about caps, as far as I am concerned there is no reason to use vintage-style caps unless one is restoring a vintage instrument and wants to maintain "period-correct" or OEM-corrct components.
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Post by b4nj0 on Nov 16, 2014 9:55:51 GMT -5
I envisaged the"blower" switch as a kind of bedfellow of the kill switch, ie, all or nothing. When you hit that switch in anger, you want to know what you're getting without any caveats. Newey's remarks are fine and as I anticipated, present a more elegant solution. The engineer is one who can achieve for 5 cents what any fool can manage with 5 bucks!
e&oe
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Post by ashcatlt on Nov 16, 2014 12:17:47 GMT -5
If we're just taking the V and Ts out of the picture, then it only takes two poles. One to break the connection between the two poles of the 5-way and one to break the connection from V wiper to output jack. If the coil split was wired to short upwards - by connecting it to the open lug on the 5-way (might require "inside out" wiring of the HB to maintain humcancelling in the B+M position) - then it would also be defeated when that blower switch was flipped. DPDT will do it, I think. I think you can do the B only solo switch thing with DPDT also, but that coil needs to short upwards either way if we want it defeated along with everything else.
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Post by sumgai on Nov 16, 2014 16:09:44 GMT -5
thd, Hi, and welcome to The NutzHouse!  In essence, all the above postings have it correct, albeit some are more focused than others. But the main question so far has been, what exactly are you trying to accomplish? Is it: a) bypass only the Vol/Tone controls, leaving the pup selector in play; or b) bypass the pickup selector as well as the Vol/Tone controls, forcing just one pickup to the output jack. As it happens, the forcing of one pickup to the output is only somewhat standard - it's not mandatory that it be the Bridge, it can be some other pup, or it can even be a combination, if that's your favorite flavor.  But under most circumstances, the only time you might want to care about the coil tap is if you want option b) with the Bridge - in that case, you probably want to make sure that you're getting both Bridge coils, and yet you don't want to monkey around with the p/p as well, you just want to operate one switch to do it all. If so, then b4nj0 is almost correct, you do need a more expensive switch. Why do I say "almost"? Because all that's needed is a 3PDT, not a 4PDT - you don't have to interrupt or control the pickup's ground wire, only the coil tap and hot wires (the 3rd pole being for the control of the output jack's 'hot' line). Sadly, if you don't plan ahead carefully, and shop around even more carefully, then you'll probably end up paying for a 4PDT anyways, just to get the job done. 3PDT units can be had, but they aren't as commonly found in most suppliers' bins. Depending on which you go, we can give you a diagram or two to get you to the next stage. HTH sumgai |
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Post by ashcatlt on Nov 16, 2014 16:52:54 GMT -5
If so, then b4nj0 is almost correct, you do need a more expensive switch. Nope. All you need is a DPDT and a little rewire of the coil cut. Per my post above. |
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Post by thehushdown on Nov 16, 2014 18:08:27 GMT -5
Wow! im very impressed how active this community is!
I wasn't expecting so many responses so quickly Thanks so much!
In answer to your question, Im trying to bypass all and have the bridge directly to the output jack.
Is there anyway some one can make me a schematic for it? I'm a visual kinda dude, and I'd also like
to keep a copy if ever I wire another in this manor.
Oh! and the bumblebee hasn't been installed yet, i have a cheapo ceramic in there currently, i suppose I'll just
pop it in there and see how it goes and maybe put a little electrical tap on it so it doesn't break further.
-Thanks
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Post by thehushdown on Nov 16, 2014 18:09:43 GMT -5
And thank you for the kind welcome!
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Post by ashcatlt on Nov 16, 2014 20:38:59 GMT -5
Kind of a hack-job of a schematic, but it should work. Note that I have not done the "inside out" thing to the HB, but it might be desirable to optimize hum-cancelling.   Edit - actually now that I see it, it's not quite right...  Kinda intersting, though... |
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Post by newey on Nov 16, 2014 23:43:15 GMT -5
So, what's not right about it? That's the way I was envisioning it, although I was concerned about the tone pots still loading the circuit- was I wrong about that?
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Post by sumgai on Nov 17, 2014 3:01:54 GMT -5
ash, Your ciruit works, but newey as found a potential bug, although he didn't express it quite right. In fact, this could be the same thing that prompted you to say "kinda funny".... .... although I was concerned about the tone pots still loading the circuit- was I wrong about that? Interesting you brought that up. If the pup selector is set to combine Mid and Bridge, and then the blower is activated, the Middle's tone control will operate on one coil of the Bridge. This means that ash's mod is not truly a bypass in all positions, but then again, how far do we have to go to be Nutz-on? I'd give ash the nod, unless hushy has a problem with that one position... then he'd need to go for the slightly more expensive version of how to do it. Oh, and if it were me, and I was gonna use ash's mod... I'd have to account for the opposing coil now being selected for splitting, and how that would affect hum in the output, when combined with other pups. I think I'd just skip over the "inside-out" stuff, and simply swap the hot/ground leads for those other two pickups. hushy, When this is all over, post sound clips. sumgai |
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Post by ashcatlt on Nov 17, 2014 8:34:53 GMT -5
Yeah. In the B position it leaves the full resistance of the V pot across the bottom coil. In B+M you have the V pot and the M pickup and its T pot parallel to the bottom coil. I'm thinking the difference will actually be pretty subtle, and there's some potential "Broadbucker" action in there, but it's not quite as straightforward as I thought.
sg - flipping the M and N pickups puts the M out of phase with the bridge. It only affects that one position, but...
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Post by reTrEaD on Nov 17, 2014 11:20:58 GMT -5
Yeah. In the B position it leaves the full resistance of the V pot across the bottom coil. In B+M you have the V pot and the M pickup and its T pot parallel to the bottom coil. It's a minor wart, but if you want to keep separate tone controls for the neck and middle (and none for the bridge) this is about as good as it gets. Shunting the top coil in the stack is the simplest way of getting a split HB that doesn't split when the blower switch is engaged. Personally I'd use a master tone control and make these issues disappear. That would also allow the "blower" switch to occupy one of the existing holes in the scratchplate. But that might not fit with thehushdown's needs. Another way to clean things up would be to use a blower switch that has at least 3 poles. If you don't have hum-canceling in the B+M position when the bridge is split, the direct and obvious way would be to stack the HB coils in an alternate method. Red becomes "hot", Green and Black are the series link, White is grounded. I guess that's what you meant with the phrase "inside out"? |
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Post by thehushdown on Nov 17, 2014 11:45:47 GMT -5
Hmmm, I can see now why this mod has been hard to find! Thank you all for your efforts, I'm now worried this set up may be impossible! haha So lets say i 86 the 2nd tone and make the other a master, will this alleviate any issues or will i simply be face with the same issue? I would very much like to keep the Coil tap and 5-way if possible buuuuut if anyone has some alternative setup where i could achieve the same effect different components id like to see it, though it would be preferable to use the ones i have! haha let's say I'm using this schematic now  |
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Post by thehushdown on Nov 17, 2014 11:48:36 GMT -5
Oh and no matter what I'll definitely post a vid of the guitar when finished !
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Post by sumgai on Nov 17, 2014 12:15:56 GMT -5
hushy, (Nice avatar. ) No, this isn't impossible to achieve in full, it just takes a bit more than some of us first envisioned. As you can now see, to do it "right" requires a 3PDT switch to avoid most the problems mentioned so far. However, I've never been an "individual controls per pup" kind of guy, I like the "Master" concept of controls. As noted by reTrEaD, this pretty much gets past the part about having a "blend" control (one of the Tone pots) when the selector is in the Mid+Bridge position. The fact that the Vol pot remains in the circuit, in that position, does affect the tone a very slight amount, but if you're like most players, it won't be audible under average conditions (i.e. when playing). Now knowing that 3PDT switches can be difficult to find (at any price-point), it might be easier to just install a 4PDT unit and be done with it. This will definitely allow you to keep everything just as you have it now, and ash's mod become only a bit more "wire-y" - but all the bases are then covered, and with minimal invasion of your axe. If you're not married to your current controls, you might seek a Fender S-1 switch on eBay - that's a push-push unit that generally comes with a 250K pot, and is used mostly for Volume (the label on the knob will be such). But it is a true 4PDT, and while it goes against the Nutz way of doing things, you don't have to use all four poles, three will be sufficient. Oh, and wiring the pup like reTrEaD says, that's what ash meant by "inside-out" wiring. Effectively, you're swapping the coils so that the split to one coil acts on the same coil as before, when the switch was going to ground instead of the selector. Inside-out wiring does beat the problem of having OoP when combining Bridge and Neck or Middle, as I had previously advocated. A full-blown video is always welcome! HTH sumgai |
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Post by thehushdown on Nov 17, 2014 23:13:24 GMT -5
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Post by sumgai on Nov 18, 2014 2:23:13 GMT -5
hushy, No, a stomp switch is meant to withstand the kinds of pressure you exert with your foot.... which is a little stronger than your hand, I'm sure you'll agree. Using it with your hand will prove to be... problematic, to be sure. And I'm not even gonna try visiting your second link - anything with gobbledygook like that link has, that's a sure invitation to catch a case of either diarrhea of the data (your stuff is lifted right off your drive, and shipped to who knows where), or else a severe case of the constipation of the chips (your computer locks up, and needs a reformat before continuing on). Trust me, there are better ways and better places to shop. www.mouser.comwww.digikey.comand a whole raft of others. Just be aware that websites focusing on guitar parts are usually more expensive for the same thing than the two "general" suppliers I just listed. Searching might be a tad strange at first, and the number of results will give you Excedrin Headache #4, but if you stick with it (or use Google to do your searching for you, instructions below), then you should come up with a winner. HTH sumgai (footnote) When searching with Google, there are many additional parameters you can give it, to narrow your focus more tightly. One of my favorites is to look at just one site, like so: xxx yyy zzz site:guitarnuts.proboards.com Obviously you substitute the site of your choice for The NutzHouse in my example, but I think you see my point. Just be sure to use the colon, and there's no space immediately after the colon. |
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Post by thehushdown on Nov 18, 2014 11:52:29 GMT -5
Sumgai,
Sorry for that link, I didn't realize how sketchy it was.
Yeah I'm sure that i would have instantly regretted that stomp switch. haha
Thanks for the proper web sites and google skills!
Wow 3PDT switches are very pricey, why is that?
It's no big deal if i can achieve with it what I'm trying to, and I'll potentially need it anyway if down the road if I switch to
the Guthrie Govan HSH set up, which is ironically how i ended up here in my quest for "blower" schematics. haha
Though for the time being I'd like keep the single coil I already have in the neck position. (Its sounds too wonderful not to keep!)
So is there any way you or some one else could take a stab at a schematic featuring the 3PDT?
Thank You,
-THD
also I must say I like your avatar as well.
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Post by newey on Nov 18, 2014 13:21:16 GMT -5
HD-
You may have an easier time finding a 4PDT switch, and it may actually cost less as they're more readily available. I can do a schematic for you but it will be a few days.
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Post by thehushdown on Nov 18, 2014 15:54:11 GMT -5
Newey,
No problem man Thanks so much I'm still waiting on parts (Tuners, bridge, nut blank) from stewmac to get this thing
functioning again so I'm good for waiting, take your time. haha
I'm excited to get this thing up and running again, when I first made the body I didnt have a neck for it for years,
then a friend gave me a Mexi-fender neck and threw it together with some really REALLY cheap parts and other random bits
I had lying around to frankenstein it together. Of course I eventually grew tired of It... it sounded horrible and fretted out everywhere.
So I then De-fretted it, filled in the frets and made it a fretless for a while, unfortunately the bridge (which i payed literally $25 for) obviously couldn't cut it.
So now, having dispatched and replaced the junk, I've built a new neck, replaced the trem cover with a Maryland motorcycle license plate circa 1955, and burned a MD blue crab on the back, as well as adding some much need contouring to the heel and the shorter horn for better fret access at unsafe speeds.
I'm very grateful to everyone on here for helping me with the final aspect of this Brackish Strat!
I've also been doing a fair amount of meandering around the other treads and learning a lot.
Thanks Again !!
-THD
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Post by newey on Nov 18, 2014 22:05:42 GMT -5
OK, you're officially Nutz™.  |
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Post by newey on Nov 18, 2014 22:45:14 GMT -5
OK, I found some time. I'm always game to ditch paying work to puzzle over guitar wiring . . . But, let's have another set of eyes look at this before you start in on any wiring. First off, I have this selecting the opposite coil of the HB when in split-coil mode- I think this is what Ash was meaning with saying it had to short the top of the stack. I also wired the HB "inside out" as was also suggested. This is tough to see on the diagram, but the white wire becomes the bridge's "Hot" lead, green joins black for the "series link" between the coils (joined at the P/P pot), and red becomes the "not hot" wire. I think this is right to preserve phase and hum-cancelling, while still shorting the coil "up". I have shown this using a 4PDT switch, but a 3P is obviously easily substituted. It's a little tough to read given the constraints of modifying the existing SD diagram (I wasn't going to completely redraw it!), but basically we use one pole of the 4P to connect the bridge "Hot" to either the 5-way switch, or directly to the output for the "blower" setting. Pole 2 disconnects the 5-way switch from the output when in the blower mode, and the 3rd pole disconnects the two tone pots when in the blower setting. Thus, the 5-way switch is completely out of the circuit when the blower is operated.  |
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Post by sumgai on Nov 19, 2014 16:48:18 GMT -5
newey,
Well, I gotta give ya points for 'Exuberant Nutziness', but what you did was think a little too far outside of the box. Besides which, as I see it, the Vol control is never bypassed, it's always in the circuit. And at that, it looks to me like the Bridge pup is never in the circuit, unless you were "taking liberties" with the current drawing, and didn't want to make corrections to previous iterations.
Go back and look at the original diagram. Now, as in several/many of our past threads about 'blower' switches, we need only control two things
1) where the output jack is getting a signal from;
and
2) where the pickup's hot lead is going to go.
Those conditions pretty much require that we need to use all three terminals of a given pole. This means that the output jack line will go to a center (common) terminal, and the two remaining terminals will be fed by either the pickup directly, or by the pup selector switch.
Likewise, the second pole will control where the pickup's hot line goes, so it's also going to be soldered to a center (common) terminal. One of the other two terminals will go to the output selector switch, and the remaining terminal will jumper over to the first pole's terminal that goes to the pickup's hot line. In this way, we have a true bypass, with no loading at all, just exactly like innumerable stompboxes.
The third pole, necessary in this case because of the coil-tap (or coil-split, your choice), will simply interrupt the red/white pair going to the switch that will ultimately go to ground (thus shorting that coil). This takes care of the original intent of ensuring that the full Bridge is sent to the jack. And don't do an inside-out wiring trick, that would simply ground the wrong coil, as chosen by hushy.
HTH
sumgai
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Post by ashcatlt on Nov 19, 2014 23:02:07 GMT -5
Yeah, I wanted to short upwards so that we could use the 5-way and try to defeat the whole thing at once. With the 3PDT we don't need that, though it works either way. You can pretty much take what I drew (with or without the change to the coil tap switch) and just use the third pole to break the connection from the HB's "series connection" to wherever it's going - ground, hot, 5-way...
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Post by newey on Nov 20, 2014 6:48:57 GMT -5
OK, well scratch that then. I'll try to rework it is as suggested by Ash and sg when I can get the chance, although it sounds like ash has already laid out verbally what needs to be done.
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Post by thehushdown on Nov 20, 2014 15:42:30 GMT -5
Wowza! Yeah that wiring looked intense! You are all amazing for helping me out here! Ok well, still whenever you get the time I would like to see it visually. No rush for the visual schematic, As I still would like to replace the bridge pup. The current one is just horrendous sounding to me, same with the middle but that one I could probably scavenge from another dead guitar I have lying around. I'm thinking for the bridge either Suhr SSH+ or SD Jason Becker hum. I Spent all day working on the "Brackish Strat" since i finally got my parts in on the hardware side of things... lots of reworking and drilling/filling/screaming had fried my brains yesterday so i didn't get a chance to get back to ya'll. In the mean time here are a few picks of the crab and trem cover for you guys. Oh and to correct myself its a 1952 Maryland Motorcycle plate. enjoy, THD    |
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Post by thehushdown on Nov 22, 2014 14:18:55 GMT -5
Here's few more now that it functions properly! Btw I taped up my Vintage Bumblebee and it works fantastic!! However, I cant stand the my bridge and middle pups haha I'm going to replace the bridge with the Suhr SSH+ fer sure, anyone have a good suggestion on a middle pup?    |
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