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Post by studiostriver on Apr 11, 2015 17:08:32 GMT -5
Hi bros. I do not want to make too much complicate combinations,just coil split,push pull for bridge on volume and for neck on tone knob. And for ice on the cake I would like to add on/on/on toggle switch parallel/serial/out of phase. I`m not technician so I do not know is it possible to put these combinations on one toggle switch,so correct me I`m wrong. I hope you will have nerves to help me again? By the way,I`ll settle down with this guitar for a long long time,so I wont bother you after this. Best regards to all.
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Post by JohnH on Apr 11, 2015 17:49:25 GMT -5
Hi bros. I do not want to make too much complicate combinations,just coil split,push pull for bridge on volume and for neck on tone knob. And for ice on the cake I would like to add on/on/on toggle switch parallel/serial/out of phase. I`m not technician so I do not know is it possible to put these combinations on one toggle switch,so correct me I`m wrong. I hope you will have nerves to help me again? By the way,I`ll settle down with this guitar for a long long time,so I wont bother you after this. Best regards to all. Hi studiostriver. You can do all that, though its not a particularly simple wiring The toggle switch that you would need is a four pole one. Basically, the series/parallel and phase functions usually require two poles each, and they are not able to be combined in a single two pole switch. So you would get one of these, or similar:
au.mouser.com/ProductDetail/CK-Components/7411SYZQE/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMvudeGI7i40XABojijUD1VHatJzecIFBl8%3d
Its a bit pricy, and is the size of two normal dpdt toggles side by side, with a single lever.
I assume there would be a normal selector toggle as well. The wiring would work out fine. For your out of phase option, you would need to decide if it was a series or parallel out of phase setting - either is possible but not both, with only three toggle positions.
You would have, for example, Parallel, Series, series out of phase, or, Series, Parallel, parallel out of phase. (ie, you cant put the out of phase in the centre)
But I think it could be a good design. When you set single coils, you can have both the in-phase and out of phase combos to be humcancelling.
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Post by studiostriver on Apr 12, 2015 9:42:17 GMT -5
Hi,thanks kindly for your reply. I`m really torn between many combinations.I always repeating to myself,make it simple for playing sake,but my heart saying,make all wild combination to experiment in studio and came for your own tones. Some kind of angel and devil scenario. I will have to see do I have space in cavity for a such a big toggle switch.Phase out option is more noticeable on standard series wiring than parallel I think.
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Post by newey on Apr 12, 2015 22:14:20 GMT -5
Studiostriver:
Sorry, but I had to move this thread, as it didn't belong in the schematics section.
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Post by studiostriver on Apr 13, 2015 12:10:32 GMT -5
Studiostriver: Sorry, but I had to move this thread, as it didn't belong in the schematics section. No I`m one who should feel sorry. Please tell me where this thread belong.I keep making the same mistake.
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Post by newey on Apr 13, 2015 16:57:07 GMT -5
Questions about wiring issues, requests for diagrams, theorizing about guitar electronics (if it's inside of or attached to the guitar)- all of it belongs in this section, which is for all such general guitar wiring stuff.
The schematics sub-board is for completed designs, and then for discussion of those designs once they have been posted. It's for final results, in other words.
The schematics sub-boards are further divided between "general schematics", "Truly nutzoid designs", "design modules" and "OEM wiring diagrams" and "tone control discussions". These are intended to (hopefully) make things a bit easier to find. So, that's why I moved your post, I'm trying to keep some semblance of organization.
No problem with the mis-posting, we don't make a big deal out of it so long as it's unintentionally done.
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Post by studiostriver on Apr 13, 2015 18:16:26 GMT -5
Questions about wiring issues, requests for diagrams, theorizing about guitar electronics (if it's inside of or attached to the guitar)- all of it belongs in this section, which is for all such general guitar wiring stuff. The schematics sub-board is for completed designs, and then for discussion of those designs once they have been posted. It's for final results, in other words. The schematics sub-boards are further divided between "general schematics", "Truly nutzoid designs", "design modules" and "OEM wiring diagrams" and "tone control discussions". These are intended to (hopefully) make things a bit easier to find. So, that's why I moved your post, I'm trying to keep some semblance of organization. No problem with the mis-posting, we don't make a big deal out of it so long as it's unintentionally done. Ok.Thanks for clarification. Know back to topic.I examined cavity and its covered with metal from one isde.This is website picture. linkI do not have three,but two pots.Third is meant Piezo which is only installed on more expensive models.So I have a hole in metal where third potentiometer is meant to be. Perfect for toggle switch to put there. The question is,is there alternative for this four pole toggle switch to add even series,parallel even with phase out option? I need your advice.I would like all combinations,but I would like to only drill one hole in guitar. If there is no alternative option,to install one more toggle for phase out and make it more simple for wiring scheme sake? Btw,I planning to order new pickups set in 2 weeks,so I need new scheme to be done for that time. Best regards.
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Post by studiostriver on Apr 15, 2015 7:18:39 GMT -5
I`m in negotiations with my pickups maker,it would be good to finish the scheme before I order them.
Is anyone willing to help me on this project,please?
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Post by newey on Apr 15, 2015 12:17:41 GMT -5
SS-
We'd be happy to help out with s diagram, but we first need to be sure that we have what you want for certain. I don't think all of John's questions have really been answered as of yet.
First, is there a 3-way pickup selector, to select between N/N + B/B? What type of switch is this? Is it like a Gibson-style toggle switch?
Second, OK, I understand that you want the neck Pickup to be coil split via a push/pull on the tone pot, whilr the bridge pickup will be split by a P/P on the volume. Got that pasrt.
Next, have you ruled out using a 4-pole switch to do series/parallel and phase on a single switch? Are you instead planning two separate switches for these functions? Or, are you going without the phase switch?
Also, you need to decide if the series/parallel switch will override the pickup selector switch (so that putting the pickups in series gives both pickups in series regardless of the position of the pickup selector switch), or whether the series/parallel switch will only operate when the selector switch is in the center position?
And, do you want series OOP or parallel OOP?
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Post by studiostriver on Apr 16, 2015 6:39:21 GMT -5
SS- We'd be happy to help out with s diagram, but we first need to be sure that we have what you want for certain. I don't think all of John's questions have really been answered as of yet. First, is there a 3-way pickup selector, to select between N/N + B/B? What type of switch is this? Is it like a Gibson-style toggle switch? First of all,thanks a lot. Yes,4 pole 3-way selector to be exact Second, OK, I understand that you want the neck Pickup to be coil split via a push/pull on the tone pot, while the bridge pickup will be split by a P/P on the volume. Got that pasrt. Yep. Next, have you ruled out using a 4-pole switch to do series/parallel and phase on a single switch? Are you instead planning two separate switches for these functions? Or, are you going without the phase switch? For this I need an opinion.I`m kind a lost.Is it possible to make series/parallel and out phase work somehow with both combination,if there is such a thing as 4 way toggle switch or anything to make it work on one switch?If its not I`ll have to decide what to sacrifice. What you think,is phase out more noticeable with series and single coil,and wont do as much for parallel? Also, you need to decide if the series/parallel switch will override the pickup selector switch (so that putting the pickups in series gives both pickups in series regardless of the position of the pickup selector switch), or whether the series/parallel switch will only operate when the selector switch is in the center position? Without a doubt I want that work for every position,not just middle. And, do you want series OOP or parallel OOP? For this last I do not know what that means?Sorry,I`m just a musician.
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Post by newey on Apr 17, 2015 4:45:56 GMT -5
"OOP" = "out of phase". Series OOP will have a fuller sound than parallel OOP, so if you can only have one, you'll want the series OOP.
I don't know of any 4-position toggles. If such a thing does exist, expect it to be expensive.
I can't imagine why you would have a 4-pole switch for the pickup selector. We may need a photo of that switch before we start in on a diagram.
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Post by studiostriver on Apr 17, 2015 16:43:22 GMT -5
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Post by ashcatlt on Apr 17, 2015 17:43:53 GMT -5
What you think,is phase out more noticeable with series and single coil,and wont do as much for parallel? No. It's kind of the other way around. Like newey said, the SOoP position is quite a bit louder, a bit more full, and not quite as ice-picky as the POoP, so I'd say that the parallel version is more noticeably different from any of the other positions. Course, it's almost always too quiet and thin and ice-picky to be of much use. If I had to pick one, I'd definitely go for the series.
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Post by studiostriver on Apr 17, 2015 20:09:36 GMT -5
What you think,is phase out more noticeable with series and single coil,and wont do as much for parallel? No. It's kind of the other way around. Like newey said, the SOoP position is quite a bit louder, a bit more full, and not quite as ice-picky as the POoP, so I'd say that the parallel version is more noticeably different from any of the other positions. Course, it's almost always too quiet and thin and ice-picky to be of much use. If I had to pick one, I'd definitely go for the series. Thanks for your comment bro,much appreciated.
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Post by newey on Apr 17, 2015 22:22:23 GMT -5
And then I read "John Petrucci", "Ibanez" "RS",etc., and it came to me why this is a 4-pole switch. Presumably, you have some variation of Ibanez' coil-switching scheme.
We're going to need to figure out exactly how that selector is wired before we can address the modifications you want. Can you draw up a diagram of the wiring as it exists now?
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Post by studiostriver on Apr 18, 2015 5:49:20 GMT -5
And then I read "John Petrucci", "Ibanez" "RS",etc., and it came to me why this is a 4-pole switch. Presumably, you have some variation of Ibanez' coil-switching scheme. We're going to need to figure out exactly how that selector is wired before we can address the modifications you want. Can you draw up a diagram of the wiring as it exists now? Yes,in middle combination it is coil split parallel.Sounds alike telecaster alike. Download this from their official site I thing there is wiring scheme there.Best regards. www.music-man.com/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&task=download&id=17
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Post by newey on Apr 18, 2015 7:01:14 GMT -5
Not a wiring diagram, but a "control function diagram". This: Doesn't tell me what I need to know. Here's the problem: Your pickup selector is already wired to split the coils of both HBs when in the center position. You want individual coil split switching, via push/pulls, for each pickup. I'm not sure that you can have the coils split in both places; that's why I need to see how that selector switch is wired. The likely scenario here is that the pickup selector will probably have to be rewired so that, in the center position, you have both HBs rather than split coils, and then you'd use the P/Ps to split the coils (for any positions on the selector switch). If that's fine with you, shouldn't be too tough to achieve. But if you want to keep the coil split on the selector and have coil splitting duplicated on the P/Ps, that may be tough to achieve (and may not be possible at all). Either way, the switch wiring is necessary knowledge.
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Post by sumgai on Apr 18, 2015 13:04:12 GMT -5
As usual, we once again find ourselves thinking within the box.... If we think of a "normal" Les Paul pup selector switch as a pair of SPST switches, mechanically controlled by a common handle, we don't have a SPDT, we have only that pairing, which is rendered even further restricted by the electrical (soldered) connection of one terminal of each switch. (That's the one that goes to the output jack, in most cases.) The more complete description is to say these are Normally Closed switches, meaning that until the switch is operated from the center position, each contact is closed. What if we were to include a pair of such switches on each side, but only one is still a NC, the other is a Normally Open (or, NO)? This let's us imitate a standard LP-type switch for coils 2 & 3, but selects the appropriate additional coil (and disconnects the other coils) when the lever is moved away from the center position. Drawing out a wiring diagram or schematic for that process is an exercise best left to the practitioner of the arts. Now, we just got through selecting coils 1 & 2 in the 'down' position, 2 & 3 in the middle position, and 3 & 4 in the 'upper' position, am I right? (Do you need another hint?) What's to stop us from controlling that additional coil selection before the signal arrives at the pickup selector? Answer: nothing. Simply hook up a P-P DPDT switch in series with the pup selector, controlling the signals for coils 1 & 4 (on separate halves of the P-P, of course), and we're all set. Any questions? HTH sumgai
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Post by newey on Apr 18, 2015 14:33:39 GMT -5
'Gai-
Yes. Not sure I'm quite following how this switching will go, but when you say:
How do we know that this is the switch he actually has?
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Post by studiostriver on Apr 18, 2015 17:51:25 GMT -5
Not a wiring diagram, but a "control function diagram". This: Doesn't tell me what I need to know. Here's the problem: Your pickup selector is already wired to split the coils of both HBs when in the center position. You want individual coil split switching, via push/pulls, for each pickup. I'm not sure that you can have the coils split in both places; that's why I need to see how that selector switch is wired. The likely scenario here is that the pickup selector will probably have to be rewired so that, in the center position, you have both HBs rather than split coils, and then you'd use the P/Ps to split the coils (for any positions on the selector switch). If that's fine with you, shouldn't be too tough to achieve. But if you want to keep the coil split on the selector and have coil splitting duplicated on the P/Ps, that may be tough to achieve (and may not be possible at all). Either way, the switch wiring is necessary knowledge. Do not worry,I planning to rewire selector switch to classic hb/hb in center.I taking guitar,new pickups,potentiometers and switches to my guitar luthier/tech to do this for me. And I`l take a shot of my selector switch tomorrow,just in case to see how it look.But I don`t know how to make any scheme,If I know how to do that I would need your help guys.
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Post by sumgai on Apr 19, 2015 0:00:10 GMT -5
'striver, Please take pictures of the pickup switch as close as you can, making sure to get a good focus. Preferably from two or three angles, that would make it even easier to divine what's what. Thanks.
newey, The type of switch I described stands to reason, given the logic of the diagram provided above. However, what I described is also found on any Gibson Les Paul three-Hb axe - it's the only way to select the middle-and-bridge pickups in the center position. Mouser and Digikey both have 'em, it's a Switchcraft 12015x, looking like this: IIRC, one can play with the little bumpers, and get a variety of switching options... but my memory is a bit hazy here, so take that with a full can of Morton's... HTH sumgai
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Post by studiostriver on Apr 19, 2015 10:40:38 GMT -5
'striver, Please take pictures of the pickup switch as close as you can, making sure to get a good focus. Preferably from two or three angles, that would make it even easier to divine what's what. Thanks. sumgai Ok,no problem.
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Post by studiostriver on Apr 19, 2015 14:35:35 GMT -5
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Post by sumgai on Apr 19, 2015 15:12:32 GMT -5
'striver, Wow, that was easy! In essence, what we're seeing is a printed circuit board over the terminals of a standard 4P3T (on-on-on) toggle switch, one that has an oversize toggle handle. My concerns about the longevity of such in a thrashing environment notwithstanding, I'll leave it to newey to fill you in on how this thing works, and how to implement your desired features. Don't worry, it can be done. sumgai
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Post by studiostriver on Apr 19, 2015 18:11:33 GMT -5
'striver, Wow, that was easy! In essence, what we're seeing is a printed circuit board over the terminals of a standard 4P3T (on-on-on) toggle switch, one that has an oversize toggle handle. My concerns about the longevity of such in a thrashing environment notwithstanding, I'll leave it to newey to fill you in on how this thing works, and how to implement your desired features. Don't worry, it can be done. sumgai Hey bro,thanks for explanations. If switch ever stops working,I guess it would not be big problem to buy a new regular one.By the way,I really like feel of this toggle switch.I was all those years in 5-way selector cause whatever 3-way toggle I tried it felt stiff for my fingers.This one is very smooth. Ok,I`ll wait for newey bro to come back to the "scene".
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Post by studiostriver on Apr 20, 2015 8:48:56 GMT -5
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Post by JohnH on Apr 20, 2015 15:20:38 GMT -5
The first link is only a two-pole switch with 6 lugs. That can do series/parallel or phasing but not both.
The other two links with 12 lug switches look right and I am surprised at the low price in the last one.
Bournes are good quality for pots, though I haven't tried them myself.
On your switching, the way that the four poles will be used is that two do the phasing and two do the series/parallel. In the middle position, one set have flipped to connect to downward lugs, while the other will connect upwards. This constrains the possible orders of your switching. It will have to be either SOOP/Series/Parallel or Parallel/Series/SOOP. This is so that as you move from position 1 to 2, or from 2 to 3, it either changes the phase, or the series/parallel function but not both at once. This means for example, that we cant put SOOP or Parallel in the middle setting with these switches. To do that, a rotary switch would be needed (4p3t) with 16 lugs. But if you are OK with that, no problem using the toggle and it will be a neat solution.
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Post by studiostriver on Apr 20, 2015 16:00:06 GMT -5
The first link is only a two-pole switch with 6 lugs. That can do series/parallel or phasing but not both. The other two links with 12 lug switches look right and I am surprised at the low price in the last one. Bournes are good quality for pots, though I haven't tried them myself. On your switching, the way that the four poles will be used is that two do the phasing and two do the series/parallel. In the middle position, one set have flipped to connect to downward lugs, while the other will connect upwards. This constrains the possible orders of your switching. It will have to be either SOOP/Series/Parallel or Parallel/Series/SOOP. This is so that as you move from position 1 to 2, or from 2 to 3, it either changes the phase, or the series/parallel function but not both at once. This means for example, that we cant put SOOP or Parallel in the middle setting with these switches. To do that, a rotary switch would be needed (4p3t) with 16 lugs. But if you are OK with that, no problem using the toggle and it will be a neat solution. Ok so I need 4-Pole Toggle Switch, On-On-On, 12 Terminals to being able to use series/parallel/SOOP on one switch. Well,I decided that one phase option shall do the trick...The other guys here suggested me that SOOP is more noticeable,so I stay with that option. The only reason why I using phase is I`m very fond of Brain May of Phase tone,I wanna be able to simulate any of those tones...Of course the main solo from Bohemian Rhapsody is most wanted. So Bourns are good pots.If it that is so,then I will buy them. And this toggle switch mentioned above. Thanks for answering. ---------------------------------- another add note. I ordered on Ebay Bourns Push pulls,and 4-Pole Toggle Switch, On-On-On, 12 Terminals.Thanks once again for explanations. Delivery time is 5 May. So we have enough time to make this scheme right. Best regards.
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Post by studiostriver on Apr 22, 2015 16:29:24 GMT -5
Where`s everybody gone?
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Post by sumgai on Apr 22, 2015 16:59:09 GMT -5
Where`s everybody gone? We're busy getting ready for the upcoming big birthday bash! Better hurry, only 1 more shopping day to go!
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