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Post by JohnH on May 13, 2015 15:07:46 GMT -5
Diagram seems ok! In phase series is the middle position though. Oh,is there any way to make different order? Parallel/Series/SOOP seems the most logical and rational one. The normal series, ie in-phase (not out of phase)is the middle setting which is what you wanted, and what it has to be to work with the switch.
its completely up to you whether or not you want to take the time test your parts and/or learn/understand/check how this design works in order to reduce chances of any problems for your project.
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Post by studiostriver on May 13, 2015 17:20:02 GMT -5
Oh,is there any way to make different order? Parallel/Series/SOOP seems the most logical and rational one. The normal series, ie in-phase (not out of phase)is the middle setting which is what you wanted, and what it has to be to work with the switch.
its completely up to you whether or not you want to take the time test your parts and/or learn/understand/check how this design works in order to reduce chances of any problems for your project.
For switching,ok.Thanks for clarification.I very often get confused with terminology. Well as I told it before I will not be the one who will make this into reality,the guitar tech will take all his skills top make it work... The last scheme we done on my previous guitar worked really well. I do not wanna sound like lazy butt,but I will left this to him.If scheme is good and if it is made by this color code I provided then all will pass smoothly. Here is it: www.dropbox.com/s/zeoljbxr8c5szwb/photo.php.jpg?dl=0
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Post by studiostriver on May 30, 2015 17:08:58 GMT -5
I wanna say again thank you guys for everything.3 Way selector cam finally.In 4/5 days I going to guitar tech to make this dream into reality.
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Post by studiostriver on Jun 23, 2015 16:16:15 GMT -5
I just returned from guitar tech with all modifications. He tripple check everything and unfortunately the scheme is not working properly.
Guitar actual works only on parallel mode (12 terminal switch position 1)with humbucker and all split and changing pickups,other two (position 2 series,and out of phase 3 )canceling all position and keep repeating the one same tone even not reacting when changing pickups switch.
If everything else is connected right guitar tech assume the problem is in 12 terminal switch.Something is wrongly connected there that cancelling all other positions.
I will tomorrow post a pictures to see how it looks.
I really hope we can manage this to work right,I`m pretty depressed.I will need to change soldering myself...
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Post by newey on Jun 23, 2015 21:48:27 GMT -5
SS-
Sorry to hear you're having problems. A photo of the wiring (if well-focused) may help identify a problem.
I'm not sure what you mean there,I think we're having a translation problem. Are you getting any output in positions2 and 3 or not?
Earlier, JohnH noted:
He's right, this is a fairly complex scheme, and such things often need tweaking. A multimeter is needed for more serious testing, but for starters, please identify which coils are active (if any) in positions 2 and 3.
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Post by JohnH on Jun 24, 2015 3:38:55 GMT -5
In series and out of phase modes, the three way main toggle is bypassed and that is intentional. Its quicker to use tbat way ie only the 12-lug toggle needs to be moved to go from a single pickup to full series. But there should be a clear difference between series and oop series if both pickups are active.
You should tap each pickup pole lightly with a screwdriver while connected to an amp to find out which are working, in each switch position.
You will also need to get hold of a multimeter. Do you have one? The simplest digital ones are ok.
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Post by studiostriver on Jun 24, 2015 4:43:30 GMT -5
SS- Sorry to hear you're having problems. A photo of the wiring (if well-focused) may help identify a problem. I'm not sure what you mean there,I think we're having a translation problem. Are you getting any output in positions2 and 3 or not? I`m getting tone but when changing pickups with selector switch it all sounds the same,thus selector do not changing postiton B/B-N/N pickups.Also coil tap do not react.All is working well only on 1st position of 12 terminal switch,on 2/3 position all is canceled and getting the same tone no matter I use selector switch or push pull. Earlier, JohnH noted: He's right, this is a fairly complex scheme, and such things often need tweaking. A multimeter is needed for more serious testing, but for starters, please identify which coils are active (if any) in positions 2 and 3. I will see if I can borrow multimeter from someone.But still I do not know how to use it at all.
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Post by studiostriver on Jun 24, 2015 5:06:08 GMT -5
In series and out of phase modes, the three way main toggle is bypassed and that is intentional. Its quicker to use tbat way ie only the 12-lug toggle needs to be moved to go from a single pickup to full series. But there should be a clear difference between series and oop series if both pickups are active. You should tap each pickup pole lightly with a screwdriver while connected to an amp to find out which are working, in each switch position. You will also need to get hold of a multimeter. Do you have one? The simplest digital ones are ok. I think I sad it incorectly ,sorry...I have a little stress cause all of this,I drived whole day to my guitar tech in 7 a.m and came home to 22p.m. Please tell me what position on 12 terminals switch are? Are they parallel/series/soop ?I think they work like that. On 1st position which I think is parallel tone is very bright and clear. There works all good.But in 2nd position series I suppose I getting the same tone ,it cancel selector switch and push pull as well. And on 3rd I can hear in middle position it sounds like out of phase,but it do not react the same way like 2nd position. You say it was intentional,well I can live with that. But I need in series to have all options works like on parallel.Series is the basic way of connecting and I could not live without it I think I will try to borrow multimeter from someone.I know that my father have a one but I think it is very old.I will post a picture and please tell me if I can use it for this purposse. And I really do not know nothing about using it,I will need a big help on this. When my guitar tech tapped pickups with screwdriver.As I sad on parallel 1st positon everything works ok.But on 2nd series position series no matter what I change all pickups are turned up. The same with 3rd,which is you say intentional. Sorry for this big mess,I hope you can understand what I trying to say.
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Post by newey on Jun 24, 2015 5:58:39 GMT -5
Any multimeter should suffice, so long as it reads to 2 decimal places. Here's what you will be doing:
- Set the meter to measure the 20K Ohm range. (Many newer meters are "auto-range" and these do not have to be set to a particular range.)
-Plug a cable into the guitar. You will use the other end of the cable for testing,by holding one probe of the meter to the tip, the other to the sleeve of the cable.
- Take readings of all possible switch/pickup combinations and post your results.
Before you get a meter, you can still do the "screwdriver tap test", as JohnH suggested. Please do so and report your results for each switch position.
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Post by studiostriver on Jun 24, 2015 6:41:08 GMT -5
After some testing and playing little bit on my gear I know clearly hear that on 1st position (parallel) and 3rd (soop) everything works ok. As I sad on 3rd it cancelled all other positions which is on purpose and I agree there is no need for having different sound on bridge and neck since it using on B/N in order to work. I tap pickups with screwdriver in order to be sure.It all works as it should,exept that in neck position when I split i can still hear both coils on neck when I hit them,but when i playing it is noticeable that humbucker and split sound a different on neck.That`s wierd. But on 2nd (series)position I confirmed it does`nt work at all .Main toggle selector and also split pots,it all sound totally the same.I tap them and whatever I change all pickups are turned up,so everything is on B/N middle selector position and not changing whatever I do. Thank you newey,I will go to my father after few hours and took multimer to test everything.Also I will post some pictures,but man there are tones of cables there,I don`t know if you can see anything. I really hope we will make this work.I need badly 2nd series position to work..But at least 1st and 3rd work as intended.
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Post by studiostriver on Jun 24, 2015 7:06:35 GMT -5
I opened a cavity and I see he uses the same red color to connect pots and main switch so picture will not be of some help I suppose.So of course only colors of cables from pickups are are different. But I will check the scheme and to tell that everyhting is connect as it was on provided scheme.
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Post by JohnH on Jun 24, 2015 7:31:55 GMT -5
when you tap on each of the poles of a humbucker, with one coil cut out, you still get a sound from both poles because they are linked magnetically. But the switched off pole is quieter.
When you get the meter we will see what is happening.
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Post by studiostriver on Jun 24, 2015 7:42:51 GMT -5
when you tap on each of the poles of a humbucker, with one coil cut out, you still get a sound from both poles because they are linked magnetically. But the switched off pole is quieter. When you get the meter we will see what is happening. Yes,that`s it,its quiter. I will check everything with multimer in a few hours. And little update.I checked the scheme 2 times,and he connected everything the right as it was on scheme. But I do not know how we will make series switching functional.I hope it just need to change some cables on 12terminal switch and that is not needed drastic changes on whole scheme.Cause it would be complicate for me as hell,those cables are so tiny. But In the end I would be happy if we can figure out no matter how to make on series everything working as intended,I`m very much know in fear cause of this.
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Post by studiostriver on Jun 24, 2015 13:43:49 GMT -5
My father`s multimer do not work.I will got tomorrow a digital one from a friend.We will have to wait till tomorrow.
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Post by JohnH on Jun 24, 2015 16:23:33 GMT -5
When you get the meter, we will first make sure you are clear on how it works. You'll using an ohms range to measure resistance, as newey noted, probably a 20k ohms range. When you touch the two leads together, that should read zero resistance. When you measure between the tip and outer sleeve of a cord plugged to the guitar, with volume at max, you should read close to the resistance of whatever pickups are connected, eg just under 6 for a 6k pickup etc.
Will probably also ask you to measure between pairs of lugs on tbe 12 lug switch. When you look at the back of the switch, lets say that the lugs are labelled like this:
A B C D E F G H I J K L
with the switch in the middle position, we will want to check if E is connected to A or to I?, is F connected to B or J?, G to C or K? and H to D or to L. If your switch was different to what we assumed, it could explain why the middle position is wrong but the outer positions are ok.Then we can work out how to fix it. Its also why its best always to test components before wiring.
None of the tests need any un soldering until we figure out what needs to be done.
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Post by studiostriver on Jun 24, 2015 18:09:41 GMT -5
When you get the meter, we will first make sure you are clear on how it works. You'll using an ohms range to measure resistance, as newey noted, probably a 20k ohms range. When you touch the two leads together, that should read zero resistance. When you measure between the tip and outer sleeve of a cord plugged to the guitar, with volume at max, you should read close to the resistance of whatever pickups are connected, eg just under 6 for a 6k pickup etc. Will probably also ask you to measure between pairs of lugs on tbe 12 lug switch. When you look at the back of the switch, lets say that the lugs are labelled like this: A B C D E F G H I J K L with the switch in the middle position, we will want to check if E is connected to A or to I?, is F connected to B or J?, G to C or K? and H to D or to L. If your switch was different to what we assumed, it could explain why the middle position is wrong but the outer positions are ok.Then we can work out how to fix it. Its also why its best always to test components before wiring. None of the tests need any un soldering until we figure out what needs to be done. Ok,I get it.The only thing I do not get is how should I test 12 terminal,by touching contact with multimere when changing 12 ts on middle position? And thanks for help.I will test everything with multimer tomorrow. I`m know sorry why I didn`t check everything but I can tell(guitar tech had informed me)that contacts on switch works like this: In zig zag,like an arrows that are being putted on "my"scheme.He showed me that and test with multimer before we started with soldering. E B G D I F K H
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Post by studiostriver on Jun 25, 2015 10:31:59 GMT -5
I having a hard time using multimer.Everytime I connect probe,one at tip ,one at sleeve it shows different number,and many of them.I do not know which one to write down,and they vary non stop... I put it on 20k ohm It starts with 1/2 small numbers,then something between from 4.40 to 6.4 and neds with one bigger number and finish with zero Is that ok? I`m total noob with this. ---------------------------------------- Little update.We came to conclusion that cables are not righ on probes...I`ll get the right ones tomorrow... Man I really don`t have a luck.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2015 13:31:27 GMT -5
I having a hard time using multimer.Everytime I connect probe,one at tip ,one at sleeve it shows different number,and many of them.I do not know which one to write down,and they vary non stop... I put it on 20k ohm It starts with 1/2 small numbers,then something between from 4.40 to 6.4 and neds with one bigger number and finish with zero Is that ok? I`m total noob with this. ---------------------------------------- Little update.We came to conclusion that cables are not righ on probes...I`ll get the right ones tomorrow... Man I really don`t have a luck. switch it to the next higher (100Kohm/200KOhm) mode, what does it say now?
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Post by studiostriver on Jun 25, 2015 18:13:21 GMT -5
[/quote]switch it to the next higher (100Kohm/200KOhm) mode, what does it say now?[/quote] I will check it tomorrow when I get fully working probes.
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Post by studiostriver on Jun 26, 2015 17:43:28 GMT -5
My friend forgot to bring me the multimere from his job,know I `ll have to wait till monday. I guess I`m totaly out of luck this month.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2015 23:23:55 GMT -5
My friend forgot to bring me the multimere from his job,know I `ll have to wait till monday. I guess I`m totaly out of luck this month. bice bolje sine, samo cekaj !
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Post by studiostriver on Jun 27, 2015 9:14:16 GMT -5
Nadam se.
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Post by studiostriver on Jun 29, 2015 8:09:04 GMT -5
Here are the results,unfortunetalely not looking good at all.
normal / split
------------------------------------------- Parallel - position 1 (12 terminal switch) ------------------------------------------- B 16.77 / 8.55 B/N 6.00 / 4.47 N 9.18 / 9.18 -------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------- Series - position 2 (12 terminal switch) ------------------------------------------- B not showing / 17.42 B/N not showing / 17.42 N not showing / 17.42 ------------------------------------------- SOOP - position 3 (12 terminal switch) ------------------------------------------- B not showing / 17.38 B/N not showing / 17.38 N not showing / 17.38 -------------------------------------------
Illya Fokin,pickup maker saying that on neck it needs to show different values when splitting.
He added:
For scheme black goes to ground, red to switch or volume pot, and green and white to splitting coil
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Post by JohnH on Jun 29, 2015 8:38:57 GMT -5
There's something wrong with the neck splitting.
The series and soop settings should each be three the same , as they are. The main toggle is bypassed in those modes, also, for resistance, series equals soop since the same coils are connected. Where it says 'nothing showing' it is probably because your pickups are so 'hot,' that the resistance of two in series is more than 20k. So I suggest repeating the readings on a 200k meter setting.
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Post by studiostriver on Jun 29, 2015 8:43:58 GMT -5
There's something wrong with the neck splitting. The series and soop settings should each be three the same , as they are. The main toggle is bypassed in those modes, also, for resistance, series equals soop since the same coils are connected. Where it says 'nothing showing' it is probably because your pickups are so 'hot,' that the resistance of two in series is more than 20k. So I suggest repeating the readings on a 200k meter setting. Ok.I will do that know.
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Post by studiostriver on Jun 29, 2015 9:14:16 GMT -5
Hi I tested,yes you are right they are hot as hell...
25.4 k in series it showing for all positions and split and and for out of phase also...
Do you suggested to unsolder pickups and check with multimeter if they work ok without a scheme?
My pickup maker said if there is problem that they damaged in trasport he will make a new one and send them free of charge..
I will just need a little instruction help for showing me how to test pickup with bare wiress.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2015 9:38:51 GMT -5
Hi I tested,yes you are right they are hot as hell... 25.4 k in series it showing for all positions and split and and for out of phase also... Do you suggested to unsolder pickups and check with multimeter if they work ok without a scheme? My pickup maker said if there is problem that they damaged in trasport he will make a new one and send them free of charge.. I will just need a little isntruction help for showing me how to test pickup with bare wiress. so if that;s ok and in combination to what John said, the only problem in neck in split mode? to test them out of the circuit, I guess all you have to do is to choose the opposite pup with the switch. To test bridge pup, choose the neck position on the switch, to test the neck pup choose the bridge position.
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Post by studiostriver on Jun 29, 2015 9:49:54 GMT -5
Hi I tested,yes you are right they are hot as hell... 25.4 k in series it showing for all positions and split and and for out of phase also... Do you suggested to unsolder pickups and check with multimeter if they work ok without a scheme? My pickup maker said if there is problem that they damaged in trasport he will make a new one and send them free of charge.. so if that;s ok and in combination to what John said, the only problem in neck in split mode? to test them out of the circuit, I guess all you have to do is to choose the opposite pup with the switch. To test bridge pup, choose the neck position on the switch, to test the neck pup choose the bridge position. Split mode do not work on parallel...Yes,but that is far from being the only problem... In series mode main toggle and split do not react with changes at all.They keep showing the same values. The only thing that work as intended is I gues SOOP 3rd position. And for the last two sentences I do not understand a word from it,I mean I understand it`s context.But I`m pretty sure it will not help me for these particular testing I need. Maybe I need to test pickups to be sure they work right without a circuit.To be sure they are not first in chain causing the problem.
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Post by studiostriver on Jun 29, 2015 11:41:19 GMT -5
I just talked to my guitar tech.
Bridge pickup splitting is working cause green and white cables that are ment for it are soldered on volume pot,but on neck green and white provided by scheme are going on 12 terminal switch and that it the reason why neck split do not work.
The problem is in scheme he assured me. Cause by itself he checked both pickups with multimere before soldering and they showed the normal vaules for humbucker,and he doubt that neck pickup can`t split cause it is damaged.More likeley the scheme is causing all the problems.
Here are also contacts on 12 terminal switch and I wrote by alphabetic ordering JohnH mentioned,(I will copy paste my coment here again) which working in pairs. In zig zag,like an arrows that are being putted on "my"scheme that newey made.
Guitar tech showed me test contacts with multimer before we started with soldering. E B G D I F K H
More expanded view.
A B C D - -/ - -/ E F G H / - -/ - I J K L
--------------------
Little update,i forgot to check 3rd position SOOP splitting,and the same problem appeared as on parallel.Bridge is splitting well,but neck wont.
So to make resume the problem is complete series and parallel and SOOP neck splitting. The rest works ok.
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Post by JohnH on Jun 29, 2015 15:20:20 GMT -5
OK, I think it is close and there is enough informaton to check a few things based on the switch info and wire colour info that you posted in the last few posts.
One question, the neck pickup is always reading 9.18, and the parallel, series and soop settings are consistent with this when combined with B. That means, on its own, that the neck pickup is about 9.5k. (the volume pot in the circuit makes it read a bit less, which is expected). The question is, is around 9.5k what you expect for the full resistance of the neck humbucker? ie, we are reading the full value and it is not being split (which would be 4.7k)? Or is it super hot and 9.5k is the split value and the full value should be twice that?
I'm going to work now, more later. Don't unsolder anything yet!
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