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Post by JohnH on Jun 29, 2015 16:17:19 GMT -5
In addition to the question above, please could you ask your pickup maker to confirm which wire colours go to each coil of the neck humbucker. A swap in these could explain the problem, and with our design it could apply just to the neck even if both pickups use the same colours.
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Post by newey on Jun 29, 2015 17:06:04 GMT -5
SS-
It look as if JohnH has you on the right track. The switch connections are the same as what the diagram assumed.
Seems to me that the neck must be perpetually in split coil mode, and that the full neck HB should be closer to 19K. That would be a hot HB indeed, but much more consistent with the bridge readings. But let's not assume anything at this point, your pickup maker undoubtedly has the answer.
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Post by studiostriver on Jun 29, 2015 18:01:16 GMT -5
OK, I think it is close and there is enough informaton to check a few things based on the switch info and wire colour info that you posted in the last few posts. One question, the neck pickup is always reading 9.18, and the parallel, series and soop settings are consistent with this when combined with B. I know test pickups again.On series only both pickups are turned B/N and main toggle do not react,whatever I change,vaules are the same for every combination.So I can not know that for series it showing the same value as it is on parallel neck. BUT I know after few more testing I see I missed that bridge can be splitted even in series. From 25.4 it splits to 17.5.But still neck split do not reacts and also main toggle keep everything on B/N whatever I do. The same this with SOOP. Only Bridge split reacts,but keeps everything in B/N but it was intended here...Values are the same 25.4 ,when split bridge 17.5. That means, on its own, that the neck pickup is about 9.5k. (the volume pot in the circuit makes it read a bit less, which is expected). The question is, is around 9.5k what you expect for the full resistance of the neck humbucker? ie, we are reading the full value and it is not being split (which would be 4.7k)? Or is it super hot and 9.5k is the split value and the full value should be twice that? I'm going to work now, more later. Don't unsolder anything yet! I checked some info from my tech previous chatting.Here are all info we needed I think: Hello Dado. Pickups are shipped, I measured pickups, neck is 9,4 kOhm, bridge is 17,6 kOhms. So,we know know it is his full value,not splitted. In addition to the question above, please could you ask your pickup maker to confirm which wire colours go to each coil of the neck humbucker. A swap in these could explain the problem, and with our design it could apply just to the neck even if both pickups use the same colours. Wire colors are this: ----------------------------------------------- "Hello Dado. coil for split mode with white and red wires (working coil). Pickups are calibrated, bridge pickup are hotter than neck pickup for better volume balance." So inner is red/white,the splittable one and outer is green black. And that`s for both pickups? Ilya Fokin 5/15, 4:11pm Ilya Fokin Yes, for both --------------------------------------------- SO it is for both pickups On this scheme newey swapped the colors of inner and outer coils,I guessing that can cause the problems?Maybe my guitar tech looked at colors and soldered it wrong. Here are some new info,my pickup maker said how to make split coils work with his color code: For scheme black goes to ground, red to switch or volume pot, and green and white to splitting coil. --------------------------------------------- Know what I think from all this talking just by looking at the scheme,to me it looks like i need for neck to swap green/white in in pot like it is wired in bridge and black/red somewhere in 12 terminal switch... This is just my novice guessing.
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Post by JohnH on Jun 29, 2015 21:41:09 GMT -5
All of that seems to check out ok per the drawing. The only issue is the neck splitting, and that is the simplest part of the circuit, with the switch directly grounding the red/black wire pair when you pull it. Have a look yourself to check it is wired per the drawing. And you can test by measuring resistance from ground (eg the outer barrel of a jack cord) to the neck red/ black pair with switch pulled. It should be about zero.
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Post by studiostriver on Jun 29, 2015 22:14:02 GMT -5
All of that seems to check out ok per the drawing. The only issue is the neck splitting, and that is the simplest part of the circuit, with the switch directly grounding the red/black wire pair when you pull it. Have a look yourself to check it is wired per the drawing. And you can test by measuring resistance from ground (eg the outer barrel of a jack cord) to the neck red/ black pair with switch pulled. It should be about zero. Please try to explain me in a steps like you would explain to an idiot how to do it,cause I do not understand a word,how should I test this.Sorry,i tried my best to figure out what you talking.I only know I need to test is red/black cable from neck connected on right place from drawings or scheme,then test its values with mutlimere.But how to test them i do not have a clue. Sorry,I only talk English through the internet,so I talk once in a 5 years with someone in real life situation.I will need instruction somewhat little easier to grasp what I need to do. And problem is not just neck splitting,the big one also is that main toggle switch do not work on series.
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Post by JohnH on Jun 29, 2015 22:34:22 GMT -5
To do the test, use the same meter setting that you have been using to measure resistance.
Put one lead on ground, for example, the outside metal part of a guitar cord which is plugged into the guitar
Put the other lead where the red/black wires connect to the push/pull switch
Pull the push/pull switch
Read the reading
Please understand that the main toggle switch is not intended to do anything in series and soop mode, it is for parallel mode. This is an intended part of the design and it cannot be fixed. But it is very logical. You have 5 basic pickup settings: Neck, Bridge, Neck and Bridge in parallel, Neck and Bridge in series, Neck and bridge in series out of phase. With this switch arrangement, you can choose any two settings of the 5 that you want to use in a song, and change between them with just 1 switch. Eg, to go from B to B&N in series, set the toggle to B and change only with the series switch. Soop to series, just move the series switch, soop to N etc. You never need to use both switches in the middle of a song, unless you want to change the coil splitting. All of the modes can be changed by coil splitting.
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Post by studiostriver on Jun 30, 2015 5:53:44 GMT -5
To do the test, use the same meter setting that you have been using to measure resistance. Put one lead on ground, for example, the outside metal part of a guitar cord which is plugged into the guitar Put the other lead where the red/black wires connect to the push/pull switch Pull the push/pull switch Read the reading Please understand that the main toggle switch is not intended to do anything in series and soop mode, it is for parallel mode. This is an intended part of the design and it cannot be fixed. But it is very logical. You have 5 basic pickup settings: Neck, Bridge, Neck and Bridge in parallel, Neck and Bridge in series, Neck and bridge in series out of phase. With this switch arrangement, you can choose any two settings of the 5 that you want to use in a song, and change between them with just 1 switch. Eg, to go from B to B&N in series, set the toggle to B and change only with the series switch. Soop to series, just move the series switch, soop to N etc. You never need to use both switches in the middle of a song, unless you want to change the coil splitting. All of the modes can be changed by coil splitting. Wait... Isn`t in series standard connection for humbuckers that everyone use?How the hell I do not need it?I could live easily without a brige/neck in series,but to change to bridge and neck in series is what I need firstly,above all.I play metal/hard rock mostly...I`m not country player to have my main rhythm and solo tones in bright and sharp parallel. It was ment to be addition palette not by any means the main, God..Oh... Why would anyone who use humbuckers and have 7 string guitar want in a world not to have it? Now you know telling me it is no ment by design.Why you telling me at this time?I didn`t know that at the point we were making a scheme.I dont remember you ever mentioned it. I would never agree with that. I though we would make fully workable parallel and series,but first series of course. O Gosh... We need to stop with this and quiting everything. The only sorrow I have I modify guitar for this.And I know I need to find another scheme and probably change the 12 terminal switch.Extreme disappointment. Know we go on beggining...
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2015 6:11:49 GMT -5
SS, Generally I think there has to be a distinction between in-pickup series/parallel and inter-pickup series/parallel. Inside a pickup you might have : series in phase, series out of phase, parallel in phase, parallel out of phase, coil split or coil tap. Between two or more pups you might have : series in phase, series out of phase, parallel in phase, parallel out of phase.
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Post by studiostriver on Jun 30, 2015 6:20:19 GMT -5
SS, Generally I think there has to be a distinction between in-pickup series/parallel and inter-pickup series/parallel. Inside a pickup you might have : series in phase, series out of phase, parallel in phase, parallel out of phase, coil split or coil tap. Between two or more pups you might have : series in phase, series out of phase, parallel in phase, parallel out of phase. Yes,there is destinction. But I can not change in series Bridge and Neck and split them...This is turned very bad I must say.I know you guys worked very hard to help me and spent your time,and I am greaftull to you for that but,this all turned to be wrong in the beggining and missunderstood. And know I do not have a clue how I`m gonna save my guitar from not ruin everything. What scheme to choose to work with 12 parallel switch that is drilled into the guitar?I`m so beaten to the core.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2015 6:39:10 GMT -5
Just wait to see what John and Newey say. Do not give up, don't let this screw your day.
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Post by studiostriver on Jun 30, 2015 6:50:20 GMT -5
Just wait to see what John and Newey say. Do not give up, don't let this screw your day. It would ruin my life,not my day..I`m 24/7 in music and cause of this I even not played electric guitar for a month,I waited for this moment and everything fall in waters of despair. I still have some light we will somehow fix the things,but do not know how.I never in my dreams thought someone will thought that canceling series in bridge and neck is good idea. Why would anyone who is in modern music ever think of that? It is like you want to be a runner and learn everything exiting new stuff but in a process forgot to walk.
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Post by JohnH on Jun 30, 2015 7:30:08 GMT -5
SS - I think you are seeing problems that are not there. Your guitar is almost working once the neck split is fixed. I am not understanding the problems that you see in the series mode, which I have explained in previous posts.
All standard guitars such as Strats, Teles, Les Pauls etc, have as their basic options, the single pickups and combinations of pickups in parallel. Combining two pickups in series or out of phase are very rare, though your has them. A simple two humbucker guitar has the two coils of each pickup wired in series, as your does, and you use the toggle to select bridge, bridge and neck in parallel, or neck. Set your 12 lug switch to parallel mode and you have all the options of any basic H/H guitar.
Some guitars have coil split, as yours does. It will split either or both pickups from humbucker to single coil.
You have series wiring of two pickups with the middle position of your 12-lug toggle. It is not a normal setting but you have it, and you can get to it from any of the normal single or parallel settings with just one switch.
You have out of phase, again not a normal mode, but you have it easily accessible.
I had a look back at your first post:
That is what this design does. You can use it as a normal guitar like any other, or switch in the extra sounds with a minimal amount of controls, and easily move between say bridge only and both in series.
I have similar series wiring that I added my own Gibson guitar, I find it very versatile. Except that I need two switches to do series and out of phase where you only need one.
so its up to you but I think you have a good design there that just needs one small problem to be found.
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Post by studiostriver on Jun 30, 2015 7:46:43 GMT -5
SS - I think you are seeing problems that are not there. Your guitar is almost working once the neck split is fixed. I am not understanding the problems that you see in the series mode, which I have explained in previous posts. All standard guitars such as Strats, Teles, Les Pauls etc, have as their basic options, the single pickups and combinations of pickups in parallel. Combining two pickups in series or out of phase are very rare, though your has them. A simple two humbucker guitar has the two coils of each pickup wired in series, as your does, and you use the toggle to select bridge, bridge and neck in parallel, or neck. Set your 12 lug switch to parallel mode and you have all the options of any basic H/H guitar. Some guitars have coil split, as yours does. It will split either or both pickups from humbucker to single coil. You have series wiring of two pickups with the middle position of your 12-lug toggle. It is not a normal setting but you have it, and you can get to it from any of the normal single or parallel settings with just one switch. You have out of phase, again not a normal mode, but you have it easily accessible. I had a look back at your first post: That is what this design does. You can use it as a normal guitar like any other, or switch in the extra sounds with a minimal amount of controls, and easily move between say bridge only and both in series. I have similar series wiring that I added my own Gibson guitar, I find it very versatile. Except that I need two switches to do series and out of phase where you only need one. so its up to you but I think you have a good design there that just needs one small problem to be found. But as I understand I can`t change with toggle to have and change between basic bridge and then neck in series that every humbucker guitar have. Without it I`m ruined. I needed to have series as basic humubucker wiring,to change between them and to split it...That was needed to be basic that never ever thought to be sacrifised for anything else. Then to speak of parallel and out of phase combinations not reverse. Am I missing something? Classical connecting humbuckers on all modern guitar is in series? Is that right?Please correct me if I`m wrong. And I do not have it...Instead I have just both b/n pickups. That`s the basic tones I needed above all. I am metal player for god sake.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2015 8:03:20 GMT -5
Since there is an obvious language barrier in here, I suggest the following : SS try to "codify" your thoughts by describing exactly the setting that you are testing, explaining all your positions on both the 12-lug and the toggle switch, followed by what you expected to have and what you actually have. Try to write this in a form of a table. This way all misunderstandings would be easily resolved and hopefully the desired result will be achieved.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2015 8:08:16 GMT -5
SS - I think you are seeing problems that are not there. Your guitar is almost working once the neck split is fixed. I am not understanding the problems that you see in the series mode, which I have explained in previous posts. All standard guitars such as Strats, Teles, Les Pauls etc, have as their basic options, the single pickups and combinations of pickups in parallel. Combining two pickups in series or out of phase are very rare, though your has them. A simple two humbucker guitar has the two coils of each pickup wired in series, as your does, and you use the toggle to select bridge, bridge and neck in parallel, or neck. Set your 12 lug switch to parallel mode and you have all the options of any basic H/H guitar. Some guitars have coil split, as yours does. It will split either or both pickups from humbucker to single coil. You have series wiring of two pickups with the middle position of your 12-lug toggle. It is not a normal setting but you have it, and you can get to it from any of the normal single or parallel settings with just one switch. You have out of phase, again not a normal mode, but you have it easily accessible. I had a look back at your first post: That is what this design does. You can use it as a normal guitar like any other, or switch in the extra sounds with a minimal amount of controls, and easily move between say bridge only and both in series. I have similar series wiring that I added my own Gibson guitar, I find it very versatile. Except that I need two switches to do series and out of phase where you only need one. so its up to you but I think you have a good design there that just needs one small problem to be found. But as I understand I can`t change with toggle to have and change between basic bridge and then neck in series that every humbucker guitar have. Without it I`m ruined. I needed to have series as basic humubucker wiring,to change between them and to split it...That was needed to be basic that never ever thought to be sacrifised for anything else. Then to speak of parallel and out of phase combinations not reverse. Am I missing something? Classical connecting humbuckers on all modern guitar is in series? Is that right?Please correct me if I`m wrong. And I do not have it...Instead I have just both b/n pickups. That basic tones I needed above all. I am metal player for god sake. Of course you are missing. John said that in "parallel" (= NORMAL AS IN 99.99999% of humbucker guitars) - meaning : INTER-PICKUP PARALLEL, then the 3-way toggle switch has its effect like any normal humbucker guitar in the world. In the rest two modes (SOOP and SERIES) (again I take it meaning inter-pickup modes, not inside pickups), the 3-way switch HAS NO EFFECT, if I interpret John's words correctly. Please try to codify the whole configuration and write down results by ear and by the VOM. ajde, smije malo !!!
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Post by studiostriver on Jun 30, 2015 8:20:08 GMT -5
Since there is an obvious language barrier in here, I suggest the following : SS try to "codify" your thoughts by describing exactly the setting that you are testing, explaining all your positions on both the 12-lug and the toggle switch, followed by what you expected to have and what you actually have. Try to write this in a form of a table. This way all misunderstandings would be easily resolved and hopefully the desired result will be achieved. For this I think its not the language barrier.I repeated it 4 times. As far as I know,in series connecting is basic for humbuckers.And thats how my guitar was previously connected with main toggle switch,on my original pickup wiring.I just had in middle parallel split b/n... So it was 1st toggle position / bridge series 2nd toggle position / bridge and neck parallel split 3rd toggle position / neck series That most basic 1st and 3rd I do not have here.To change and play bridge,and then neck...Not both on the same time and nothin more which I have know. See the original JP7 scheme.Series have meatier tone.And every modern guitar humbucker as far as I know are connected in series. www.dropbox.com/s/yof2mn8rifcq7wz/cfd_jp7_hh.pdf?dl=0
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2015 8:26:14 GMT -5
Since there is an obvious language barrier in here, I suggest the following : SS try to "codify" your thoughts by describing exactly the setting that you are testing, explaining all your positions on both the 12-lug and the toggle switch, followed by what you expected to have and what you actually have. Try to write this in a form of a table. This way all misunderstandings would be easily resolved and hopefully the desired result will be achieved. For this I think its not the language barrier.I repeated it 4 times. As far as I know,in series connecting is basic for humbuckers.And thats how my guitar was previously connected with main toggle switch,on my original pickup wiring.I just had in middle parallel split b/n... So it was 1st toggle position / bridge series 2nd toggle position / bridge and neck parallel split 3rd toggle position / neck series That most basic 1st and 3rd I do not have here.To change and play bridge,and then neck...Not both on the same time and nothin more which I have know. So, now you don't have this under "parallel" (inter-pickup) mode on your 12-lug? 1 (in-pup bridge series) and 3 (in-pup neck series) should work while in "parallel" (inter-pickup) mode.
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Post by studiostriver on Jun 30, 2015 8:29:00 GMT -5
For this I think its not the language barrier.I repeated it 4 times. As far as I know,in series connecting is basic for humbuckers.And thats how my guitar was previously connected with main toggle switch,on my original pickup wiring.I just had in middle parallel split b/n... So it was 1st toggle position / bridge series 2nd toggle position / bridge and neck parallel split 3rd toggle position / neck series That most basic 1st and 3rd I do not have here.To change and play bridge,and then neck...Not both on the same time and nothin more which I have know. So, now you don't have this under "parallel" mode on your 12-lug? Look above I rewritten my post,there you have original JP7 scheme. Bridge and neck are in series. I have in parallel,but do not have in series.And most modern guitar as far as I know are connected in series bridge and neck.. At least the models I played... Your humbucker on Ibanez 7 string most basic bridge and neck on 1st and 5th are connected in series for sure.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2015 8:38:07 GMT -5
I edited my last post. Please make sure to include "inter-pickup" or "in-pickup" before any reference to the terms "series"/"parallel". Can you pls answer me?
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Post by studiostriver on Jun 30, 2015 8:42:00 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2015 8:47:57 GMT -5
Man, I AGREE ON THIS. 99.99999999999999999999999% of guitars are like that. CAN YOU NOW ANSWER MY QUESTION ABOVE, which I repeat? ? JOHN MEANT INTER-PICKUP PARALLEL NOT IN-PICKUP PARALLEL, when he talked about the NORMAL / MAJORITY of guitars Don't you agree on this?
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Post by studiostriver on Jun 30, 2015 8:51:52 GMT -5
So, now you don't have this under "parallel" (inter-pickup) mode on your 12-lug? 1 (in-pup bridge series) and 3 (in-pup neck series) should work while in "parallel" (inter-pickup) mode. I have that under parallel,but I do not have it in series cause that is the most basic wiring for humbuckers. My JP7 was connected that way,your 7 string Ibanez and any modern humbucker guitar that you can think of is connected in series.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2015 8:56:09 GMT -5
So, now you don't have this under "parallel" (inter-pickup) mode on your 12-lug? 1 (in-pup bridge series) and 3 (in-pup neck series) should work while in "parallel" (inter-pickup) mode. I have that under parallel,but I do not have it in series cause that is the most basic wiring for humbuckers. My JP7 was connected that way,your 7 string Ibanez and any modern humbucker guitar that you can think of is connected in series. once again you fail to use in-pup and inter-pup keywords creating a world of mess. OF COURSE my Ibanez has the neck pup in "in-pup" series on 1 and bridge pup in ("in-pup") series on 5, but on 2,4 it splits the neck/bridge respectively and connects then IN ("inter-pup") PARALLEL with the mid pup. According to John, your guitar has 3 major modes : - PARALLEL (inter-pup) : MOST COMMON - SERIES (inter-pup) : RARELY USED - SOOP (out of phase, also rarely used) In those basic modes, your 3-way toggle should act as IN YOUR ORIGINAL setup while on the PARALLEL setting. In this setting, the switch the mid position should give the two pups in (inter-pup) parallel (and perhaps split?), but in 1 and 3 you should STILL HAVE (in-pup) series for each pup. kapirao si nesto?
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Post by studiostriver on Jun 30, 2015 9:00:50 GMT -5
Man, I AGREE ON THIS. 99.99999999999999999999999% of guitars are like that. CAN YOU NOW ANSWER MY QUESTION ABOVE, which I repeat? ? JOHN MEANT INTER-PICKUP PARALLEL NOT IN-PICKUP PARALLEL, when he talked about the NORMAL / MAJORITY of guitars Don't you agree on this? I do not understand your terminology,what is inter-pickup parallel and in-pickup parallel? All I can tell and I telling that for few times. In parallel mode ,1st position of 12 terminal switch everything works ok... I can swap normally pickups with my main toggle,but they all work in parallel there or am I wrong totally about this?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2015 9:04:11 GMT -5
SS, Generally I think there has to be a distinction between in-pickup series/parallel and inter-pickup series/parallel. Inside a pickup you might have : series in phase, series out of phase, parallel in phase, parallel out of phase, coil split or coil tap. Between two or more pups you might have : series in phase, series out of phase, parallel in phase, parallel out of phase. Yes,there is destinction. I do not unerstand your terminology,what is inter-pickup parallel and in-pickup parallel?
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Post by studiostriver on Jun 30, 2015 9:05:46 GMT -5
but in 1 and 3 you should STILL HAVE (in-pup) series for each pup. So you telling me on my 1st switching on 12pin, parallel mode is only when both pickups working in B/N and my 1st and 3rd position humbuckers are connected in series? So if get it right your termonology in pup is connection in wiring between two coils,in the same humbuckers and inter pup is connection between two single coil in both humbuckers when they are in middle position ? If that is so i didn`t understood anything.And this connection is very complex to my noobie brain. Now I get it.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2015 9:28:46 GMT -5
but in 1 and 3 you should STILL HAVE (in-pup) series for each pup. So you telling me on my 1st switching on 12pin, parallel mode is only when both pickups working in B/N and my 1st and 3rd position humbuckers are connected in series? So if get it right your termonology in pup is connection in wiring between two coils,in the same humbuckers and inter pup is connection between two single coil in both humbuckers when they are in middle position ? yup, also in mid position (inter-pup parallel) pups by themselves could be (generally speaking, in theory) in split mode, most commonly, but in any independent mode they can be. I have a mode in my strat with all pups in-pups series being all together with inter-pup parallel. Also I have them in in-pups parallel being all together with inter-pup parallel, resulting to a weaker but similar sound.
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Post by studiostriver on Jun 30, 2015 9:34:34 GMT -5
So I guess know when I have in pup bridge and neck in series the scheme is rather more neat than I thought it to be.Hm..And pretty good designed. But I didn`t undertstood it at all in a first place.
I will know start with testing,hope we wil fix this neck splitting thing very soon.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2015 10:09:11 GMT -5
In testing just bear in mind this : every coil has a resistance (in KOhms). Follow this to understand the maths behind it: in series : in parallel : The above maths apply to any coil or combination of coils as a system, so they apply for both in-pup and inter-pup connections. Now try to see if everything is correct by your pups nominal values and the readings of your VOM, minus this neck in-pup parallel that is known (by John's comment) to not work.
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Post by studiostriver on Jun 30, 2015 11:42:30 GMT -5
In testing just bear in mind this : every coil has a resistance (in KOhms). Follow this to understand the maths behind it: in series : in parallel : The above maths apply to any coil or combination of coils as a system, so they apply for both in-pup and inter-pup connections. Now try to see if everything is correct by your pups nominal values and the readings of your VOM, minus this neck in-pup parallel that is known (by John's comment) to not work. Oh,I am extremely bad at mathematics,I am musician. But I will do testing and poste results here,in a few hours.
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