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Post by wolf on Apr 17, 2015 23:36:01 GMT -5
I received an E-Mail from someone who wanted this circuit from my website to be rewired with volume controls for both pickups and a master tone control. (I know this circuit is correct because it was inspected by me and just about everyone at Guitar Nuts 2 many years ago.)
I have made my own attempt at drawing such a circuit. Will this work?
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nikogo
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Post by nikogo on Apr 18, 2015 0:17:28 GMT -5
Sorry Wolf, The second volume control is completely useless in that scheme. In single HB combinations and in parallel 2 HB the volume controls will interfere working practically in parallel. In single neck HB combination the second VC will add signal from bridge HB. In series work of two HB the second VC will take signal from half a stack. And tone control after V controls is not a very good idea either.
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Post by wolf on Apr 18, 2015 1:39:36 GMT -5
Thanks for the quick reply nikogo. Is it possible at all to wire Super Seven Switching with independent volume controls for each pickup?
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nikogo
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Post by nikogo on Apr 18, 2015 6:14:52 GMT -5
I do not see at this moment any way to introduce a second volume control without affecting some switching combinations, especially the series connection of two HBs.
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Post by sumgai on Apr 18, 2015 12:40:57 GMT -5
wolf, The problem here is simple to describe - you have connected the "lower" terminal of each Vol pot to ground, and that won't work in any series combo. JohnH has written a primer on how to do this kind of thing correctly, you can find it here: guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/6762/blending-coils-seriesThere are other threads on the topic of multiple Vol controls in series circuits, search around a bit. HTH sumgai p.s. nikigo is correct - putting the tone after the vol controls is anathema to good tone - try a little harder to dissuade this person from doing so. Send him here to The NutzHouse, if he still insists, leading him to this thread (again by JohnH, wouldn't you know it): guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/1885/modern-50s-wiring
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nikogo
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Post by nikogo on Apr 18, 2015 14:19:52 GMT -5
The complex commutation here between two HBs does not allow to use solutions that are good for let's say series connection because they do not work for parallel and v.v. In series connection potentiometers work well as bypass; for parallel mixing there have to be series resistances that prevent affecting the parallel branch. Without more sophisticated switching some functionality will be lost. Plus bypass resistance inevitably affects tone.
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nikogo
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Post by nikogo on Apr 18, 2015 15:30:16 GMT -5
As a poor choice solution I can suggest a scheme with 4 SPDT and two DPDT switches: When both S5 and S6 are in ON (upper contacts connected) the two HBs are in series with bypassing pots aside. In the rest of combinations the pots are used like in Les Paul.
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Post by JohnH on Apr 18, 2015 15:46:56 GMT -5
I reckon it can be done. The volume controls go between red and green wires, one where the phase switch is shown, and the other in the equivalent place for the other pickup. Red/Green coming from the pickups are the outer volume lug connections, the ongoing red connection comes from the volume centre lug.
In the case of the neck pickup, there is no direct ground to the volume pot, the usual pot ground connection is the green wire, so it can float above bridge in series.
You can still have a phase switch.
This principle is how I do my 2 volume HH designs. In parallel mode, it will have he usual LP 'problem' that selection both pickups then rolling one all the way down cuts out all sound. But that is not a real problem, just turn off one pickup using the switching. It has worked fine for 60 years.
In series, the two volume signals get added and the signals go through both pot/pup combinations. Nikogo raises a valid issue with the tones at in-between settings. It is essential to use treble bleed circuits on each volume pot (I have settled on 1nF and 150k in parallel on 500k pots). This keeps the treble tones, giving a smooth transition from both in full series, to just a bit of one or both or just a single.
Here is some analysis: Blending coils in series
One more thing about the Super 7 I'm interested in though. It has a few cases where a coil is disconnected at one end but still hanging from hot. We have had a fear of small buzzes etc being picked up by this arrangement, and try to avoid it, without much conclusive evidence . But some other famous designs such as the 'Mike Richardson' mod depend on it, and yours has clearly been built a number of times. Do you see any issue in practice?
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Post by wolf on Apr 19, 2015 1:52:08 GMT -5
Well, I certainly received a lot of replies. Thanks to all. I already sent a link to this question to the person that sent me the E-Mail - think I'll send him another one.
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Post by kaustinwright on Apr 20, 2015 12:18:37 GMT -5
Hello, I am the one who sent the initial Email to Wolf in order to gain more control of the circuit and tonal possibilities that the Super Seven Scheme has. Thank you guys for the quick help, and thanks to wolf for being kind enough to create this thread for me. I am planning to install super seven (more like super 6 without the phase switch) into an Ibanez Saber that I am currently customizing. There is a small square hole routed in the top of the guitar where a 5 way blade switch is normally located. I plan to put 4 mini mini switches in, along with a custom plate to mount them, in order to control the coils "AB and CD"(as shown in the diagram). As for the other 2 switches (I do not plan to add a phase switch to the circuit, as room on my guitar prohibits this without drilling) I plan to use 2 push/pull 500K audio pots as the "neck pickup and bridge pickup" switches, also controlling the volume of the respective (full) pickups. I will be installing a 1nF and 150K resistor in parallel as suggested on each pot. I will have to drill a hole in between the current single volume/single tone design to add this other push/pull volume control for the bridge pup. Although at this point with JohnH's advice, I am slightly confused as to which leads to use. You stated connect the volumes where the phase switch location is between red and green leads (for dimarzio wiring). Though "Red/Green coming from the pickups are the outer volume lug connections, the ongoing red connection comes from the volume centre lug." confused me a bit. So Green and Red to oudside lugs and the output lead comes from the middle lug to the outside terminal of the respective pickup switch which then connects directly to a tone control from that terminal? So in both cases, neck and bridge, there is no ground connection to the volume pot casing, if so you mentioned the green wire acting as a ground and "floating in series" what does this mean? As for the connections that cause the coil to be disconnected at one end but still hanging from hot, I'm not sure the exact combinations you're talking about, but if there is any unwanted buzz in those positions then are you insisting it may not be wise to use this particular scheme? If you think I should go ahead with it then I would be glad to share my results in the future. Also, How do I wire the Master tone to both volume controls? Thanks again! Attachments:
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Post by kaustinwright on Apr 20, 2015 13:06:09 GMT -5
I have also completed half of a wiring diagram that I believe is what JohnH was proposing. Note the colors are dimarzio, and the bridge pickup has not been completed yet Attachments:
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Post by JohnH on Apr 20, 2015 15:27:57 GMT -5
Ill sketch the volume connections on top of Wolfs diagram, later today. For the buzzes, that was mainly a question for Wolf. If you shield your guitar there should be no problem, and Id be interested to know if this is a real issue. Its a great scheme if you like to have all the switching control.
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nikogo
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Post by nikogo on Apr 20, 2015 17:35:25 GMT -5
John, I did not build super 7 with two volume controls, so here I am asking your opinion. In series connection, as you described, when the 1st HB pot is fully rolled in and the 2nd HB pot is rolled out, the first HB will have connected in series 500K (115K with treble bleed). I like your elegant solution with treble bleed circuits. But I expect the residual in series as least 100K would reduce output, and especially affect the standard tone control that would work as a divider and adjust volume too. How do you deal with that effect? You may have some other solution for that. I did not consider that situation as viable and suggested a bit more complex switching where the "in series" parts of pots would be shortened. It would eliminate the need in treble bleed circuits, leave no "in series" resistance helping to normalize the tone control operation.
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nikogo
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Post by nikogo on Apr 20, 2015 17:52:42 GMT -5
Kaustinwright, Nice to meet one more enthusiast of super 7. If you made up your mind about two volume controls please ignore my following writing. I had a feeling that you are still looking for the best layout for your guitar. Also I find your guitar situation as excellent opportunity to get more tones. Personally I do not find it convenient to have more than one volume control. The blending advantage from two V controls could be easily compensated with additional fixed filters. The 6 SPDT micro-switches spaced 10mm will fit nicely into a pocket 60mm long, 14mm wide, 20mm deep. It is only few mm longer than 5 way switch. It may be easier to modify a place for them than to cut more wood for push-pulls. The hole for second volume control may be occupied with a rotary switch for fixed tone filters that would give you much more tones than volume blending.
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Post by ashcatlt on Apr 20, 2015 18:01:41 GMT -5
nikogo - you need to look at that again. Maybe when John makes his pic, it'll be more obvious, but the pot basically shorts across the one pickup from the perspective of the other. With one of the Vs all the way down, there is no resistance in series with the other. It's the in-between settings where you'll have some series resistance, and itll be worst when that pot is just under halfway up.
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nikogo
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Post by nikogo on Apr 20, 2015 18:18:15 GMT -5
Yes, let's wait. I understand that the pots are connected as in Les Paul for blending. Than there would be a "in series" part not shortened. If the pots are connected with 1 and 2 contacts connected than what about blending?
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nikogo
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Post by nikogo on Apr 20, 2015 19:29:13 GMT -5
" you need to look at that again." Ashcatit, Thank you, good advise. I imagined the backward LP pot connection as in my sketch.
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Post by JohnH on Apr 21, 2015 7:42:59 GMT -5
This is what I was suggesting: the single tone pot is after the volume pots, which is as '50's wiring'. Its the simplest way to wire it, but makes for a somewhat quirky tone control that some people love. Or, use a dual-ganged tone pot, each half before the volume controls.
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Post by wolf on Apr 21, 2015 22:15:55 GMT -5
Thanks for redrawing that John. Well I guess I should do a little redrawing (based on what you just did).
I trust everyone will check to see if my redrawing is done correctly. John, just to make sure, the components should be a 1 nanofarad capacitor, a 150 K resistor and a 500 K potentiometer right?
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Post by JohnH on Apr 21, 2015 22:44:11 GMT -5
Seems good Wolf - to be added to the other pickup too
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Post by wolf on Apr 22, 2015 4:52:38 GMT -5
Okay, I think I have it redrawn with 2 volume controls.
Edited 04/22/2015 8:00 pm to post corrected drawing.
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Post by JohnH on Apr 22, 2015 6:41:53 GMT -5
need to delete the right-side wire from the tone pot, otherwise bridge is forced on (EDIT - now fixed above)
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Post by kaustinwright on Apr 23, 2015 12:18:27 GMT -5
As you mentioned, there may be problems with hum and other unexpected noise differences with all of the wiring going on, how can I avoid this before I begin soldering? I do plan to shield with the conductive paint method, but I worry there will be unusable combinations, defeating the purpose of the mod. (basically, are there any combinations that I should think about removing, or modifying in order to be more practical and useful) as i have found there may be issues with multiple treble bleeds.
In wiring the treble bleed circuit, would there be any differences in wiring the leads to the pot (outer and center lug) than wiring directly to the switch? Also, would it be worth it to have a switch controlling modern/50's wiring to get rid of some of the low end or a phase switch as suggested by the SS design? (That is If I can find the room for one)
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Post by kaustinwright on Apr 23, 2015 12:21:48 GMT -5
Also, I'm not sure how to wire in the tone pot based on the diagram.
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Post by kaustinwright on Apr 23, 2015 12:49:25 GMT -5
As for the bridge portion of the diagram, when adding a pot to the circled portion, should I jump off of the positive lead from the pickup to the pot (as shown), or use the positive lead itself going to the pot and then to the 2 switches after the level is affected. (apologies for the poor quality, and ignore the bottom portion of the crappy paint program diagram) Attachments:
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Post by JohnH on Apr 23, 2015 17:24:26 GMT -5
As you mentioned, there may be problems with hum and other unexpected noise differences with all of the wiring going on, how can I avoid this before I begin soldering? I do plan to shield with the conductive paint method, but I worry there will be unusable combinations, defeating the purpose of the mod. (basically, are there any combinations that I should think about removing, or modifying in order to be more practical and useful) as i have found there may be issues with multiple treble bleeds. In wiring the treble bleed circuit, would there be any differences in wiring the leads to the pot (outer and center lug) than wiring directly to the switch? Also, would it be worth it to have a switch controlling modern/50's wiring to get rid of some of the low end or a phase switch as suggested by the SS design? (That is If I can find the room for one) This circuit or similar ones have been built before, so should be fine if you have the shielding. But if you wanted to be totally sure about the minimum buzz, then the two middle switches can be changed to dpdt's, so that when neck is supposed to be switched off, its hot lead is disconnected fully. it wouldn't be too hard to make that change, I think I would do it if it was mine, but it may not really be needed and if Wolf reckons its fine Id certainly be happy with that.
The dual treble bleed works fine, I have it on my own guitar and several other designs. That video has different volume pot wiring (independent wiring, intended to be so you can select two pickups and turn one all the way off, but that causes many other nasty tone problems, not recommended). You can wire the treble bleeds either direct to the pot, or to switch lugs that are themselves wired to the relevant pot lugs.
The single tone pot after the volume controls is 50's wiring as shown, wired from the output to ground through the cap. If you want modern wiring on a single tone knob you need a dual-ganged pot so that each half of the tone pot can be wired before its respective volume pot.
You can add a phase switch, as per the original drawing, if you want.
Wolfs last diagram above is updated, so my comment after it is now addressed.
I think what Id suggest would be to get dpdt switches for the two middle switches, but for the first wire-up, ignore half of each of those and wire up as per Wolfs last diagram above. If you get any xs buzz in neck-only position, you can use the second halves. I think also, if you have room, you could add the phase switch, since it becomes quite fun when you have two volume pots to balance the out of phase interactions
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Post by kaustinwright on Apr 23, 2015 19:05:41 GMT -5
I will consider drilling a hole for the phase switch, why not right?? but I will use wolf's diagram to wire the first run, and I'm using push/pulls for the center switches, so I will inevitably have the dpdt that is necessary for your mod. As for using the other side of the switch, I'm not sure how to wire the dpdt as you were suggesting to cause the hot lead to be fully disconnected. Could you possibly elaborate or create a diagram that demonstrates how to do this? also, i created my own diagram to work from, I will attach it and if anyone can tell me if it's correct that would be awesome. THANK YOU GUYS FOR ALL OF THE HELP! Attachments:
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Post by JohnH on Apr 24, 2015 16:25:10 GMT -5
Couple of things - first my bad, from my sketch, also on Wolfs version (sorry Wolf)
Change one wire: The red wire (per Wolf's) that goes directly from the bridge pickup, should not go to the third switch from left. Instead, it should go to the bridge volume right outer lug. Please trace it through for yourself, to be sure you agree with how it works.
Also, on your latest sketch, it looks like your pickup wires are coloured for Seymour Duncan pickups, while Wolf's diagrams are based on Dimarzio - is that intended?
Ill make a sketch of how to wire the other halves of he p/p switches, if you find you need to. adding this later would not require much rework to the soldering.
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Post by kaustinwright on Apr 24, 2015 17:39:24 GMT -5
I have attached a photo with your advice of changing the positive from pup directly to pot. Please let me know if this is correct. Yes, thank you for taking the time to check my diagram, I have 2 Duncan pickups, which is the main reason I decided to re-draw, based on my pups' color code. A diagram of the other side of the dpdt would be awesome, no rush though, I'm still waiting for parts to come all the way from China Attachments:
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Post by JohnH on Apr 24, 2015 18:50:13 GMT -5
I have attached a photo with your advice of changing the positive from pup directly to pot. Please let me know if this is correct. Yes, thank you for taking the time to check my diagram, I have 2 Duncan pickups, which is the main reason I decided to re-draw, based on my pups' color code. A diagram of the other side of the dpdt would be awesome, no rush though, I'm still waiting for parts to come all the way from China yes that diagram attached looks good
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