tweedgv
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Post by tweedgv on Jun 10, 2015 4:01:57 GMT -5
Hi all I’m new to guitar modding, and have recently started to mod my jag stang with a new pups. It had been modded before (not by me) and has a Seymour Duncan JB in the bridge. I recently bought a hotrails for the neck, and when I had a look inside the guitar, the wiring was very different to any schematics I could find, after attempting to hook up the new pup and failing, i decided to re-wire it following this diagram. my problem is, both SD pups have 4 wires, I know the red and white get taped together as they are for coil splitting, which I would like to explore in the future, as for the rest I’m unsure and researching it sometimes ends up with contradictory results. I followed the instructions that came with the HRs and wired up the blacks to switches and the bare and green I took to my volume pot, which has a wire going to the ground peg. This resulted in the JB in the bridge working, but without the oop, but nothing from the HR in the neck…… I followed the advice off an old forum conversation I found who suggested: “solder the bare wire to ground on the back of one of your pots or wherever else the nearest ground point is. Solder the green to where the wire labelled black is connected on the diagram. Solder the black wire to where the wire labelled white is connected on the diagram” (quote)…… This did not work…. I swapped the green and black wires around because of something else a have read and this gave the result of the pup making a very quiet sound……. Something but not right….. Could really do with some help here, so thanks in advance Gav
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Post by newey on Jun 10, 2015 4:54:36 GMT -5
tweedgv-
Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2!
The first thing to recognize is that it is devilishly difficult for others to troubleshoot your wiring in cyberspace, without being able to look at the guitar. We will try to help all we can, but what we can ascertain will be limited.
First off, the SD diagram you are using looks OK. It's the stock Mustang wiring.
Yes.
Correct. You don't say so, but the JB's wire colors should be wired exactly the same way.
I'm not sure where this other person was going with that, it sounds like he/she was trying to swap the HB coils around. But this is nothing that you would need to be doing, since you are not coil-splitting the HBs. If you did this, undo it.
This would simply put the one pickup out of phase with the other, unless you did this AND had the guitar wired with the black to the white, as discussed above. It doesn't explain (and wouldn't fix)your problem.
To start off, rewire according to the diagram. Both SD pickups should be wired identically, with black to the switch and green to the ground point (i.e., back of the volume pot.) Then, report back what you have got for each switch setting of both pickups. Also, do you have a multimeter available?
My suspicion here is that you have a bad connection somewhere with the neck pup. The most likely culprit is the ground to the V pot. It is often difficult to get a good solder joint to the back of the pot. You also have to be careful to not overheat the pot, as it will be destroyed if it gets too hot internally.
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tweedgv
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Post by tweedgv on Jun 10, 2015 5:29:45 GMT -5
ok, thanks for the quick reply newey....
i will do as you suggested....
would it be safer to get a few ground wires to go straight to the ground tab, which is behind the bridge pup (i think)? it isnt very big but could take another wire or two i'm sure. i'm afraid of burning it out now!
i've also got another wire coming out of a hole which seems to be leading to the bridge cavity.... i took the bridge off to see where it led but it isn't visible, wherever it is.
Gav
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tweedgv
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Post by tweedgv on Jun 10, 2015 5:47:31 GMT -5
also..... yes i have a multi meter reader... also, also.... before i exhaust your patience, i would ultimately like to coil split both pups........ i have looked at the help you gave in the past @: guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/5238/get-most-jag-stang, but fear this might be a little too much at this point for me... is there an easier option avaible? thanks again
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tweedgv
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Post by tweedgv on Jun 10, 2015 10:56:31 GMT -5
ok..... i've rewired it to the diagram. its exactly the same as the JB pup but i still dont get anything out of it..... the JB pub gives me output minus the oop
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tweedgv
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Post by tweedgv on Jun 10, 2015 11:10:54 GMT -5
right...... thats class, i got it working...... thank you newey both pups are working on - off - off.
how do i get the oop back, do i solder the green to the adjacent peg?
preferably i would like to coil split both, so are there any schematics at hand which could help me coil split both pups using the switches i already have?
again thank you for your help.... there is a lot of mis information out there.
gav
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Post by newey on Jun 10, 2015 18:27:21 GMT -5
I don't know what you mean by this. On the SD diagram, the pickups (single coils, of course) have a black wire for both neck and bridge. Both these black wires correspond to your black wires.
The SD diagram shows one pickup with a white wire, the other with a yellow (done so that the neck pickup can be distinguished from the bridge). These wires correspond to your green wires, respectively.
If you have it wired as per the diagram, and assuming no bad connections, you should get the OOP sound if either one of the pickup slide switches is set to the OOP. If both are set to OOP, then the pickups are back in phase with each other. And, if only one pickup is operating, you won't have an OOP sound.
Therein lies a problem. If you turn the bridge pickup "off", the neck pickup should operate with its switch either to the right or to the left(it won't sound OOP because it's just one pickup). If you then turn the neck off, and flip the bridge switch right and left, you should get the bridge pickup alone with either setting.
If the pickups remain "off" with the switch set to the left, then there is a bad connection on the slide switches somewhere.
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Post by newey on Jun 10, 2015 18:30:38 GMT -5
And, the wire to the bridge is your string ground, it needs to be there (and connected to ground). You would probably need to pull the bridge to see the wire contacting the underside of the bridge, but you should check it with your meter just to be sure. You should show continuity (i.e. 0 Ohms or miniscule reading) between the bridge and the output jack negative (sleeve) connection.
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Post by newey on Jun 10, 2015 18:33:59 GMT -5
Just another thought. You do have the two center lugs on each side of the slide switches jumpered together, as shown on the SD diagram?
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tweedgv
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Post by tweedgv on Jun 11, 2015 2:33:03 GMT -5
ok thank you newey........ yes the center lugs are jumpered, but what I have not done is take the green wire to where the white should be, which is the reason i'm not getting the oop, I think i'm right in saying..... what i meant by adjacent peg in the previous post is the solder prong opposite to where my black wire is soldered now....... where the white wire is soldered in the diagram (so to answer my own question, yes) i'll get on this when i get home from work......... have you any advice for coil splitting..... i have been reading the thread i have mentioned above and am very tempted to go for it...... a little project for the summer..... although I would have a couple of questions regarding the diagram....... Thanks again newey
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tweedgv
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Post by tweedgv on Jun 11, 2015 3:44:44 GMT -5
re string ground: I did take the bridge off to see if I could see where it went but could not.... I assume it is connected to the metal sleeves the bridge slots into. it must have come off the ground of the volume pot, I will solder it back there later also.... this soldering business is very addictive....... i'm going to order some push pull pots, and I think the jag stang takes mini pots??? the other dilemma is 500k, 250 or 1m, and would I then need to change the capacitor?? reading that old thread a few times but the guy never states what pots or caps he ends up with.....
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Post by newey on Jun 11, 2015 21:10:17 GMT -5
One of these can split both of your HBs simultaneously. With two, you can split the HBs individually, allowing for HB-SC combos.
However, I'm going to throw in my 2 cents worth here. Higher-output HBs are better for splitting. I've done the coil split thing on a rails-type HB and was not enamored with the results- those little skinny coils just don't do well on their own. I soon rewired it for series/parallel HB settings rather than the coil split.
The JBs seem to have a bit beefier coils, that one might split better than the rails. If you're of a mind to experiment, don't let me discourage you
To paraphrase Yoda: "Assume you not! Test it you should!"
If it was Asian-built, it's likely that it does. Look at the ones in there now. Are they 25mm dia. or 17 mm dia.? If you're buying new pots, be mindful of the shaft diameter, and whether knurled shaft or solid shaft is needed.
As far as pot and cap values, it's largely a matter of taste. Going to 1M may well take your HBs into icepick-bright territory, especially if both pots are that value. Conventional wisdom would be 500K pots for a 2 HB guitar. YMMV.
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Post by sumgai on Jun 12, 2015 0:38:23 GMT -5
To paraphrase Yoda: "Assume you not! Test it you should!" Actually Yoda said, and I quote: Assume? There is no assume - there is only test!
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tweedgv
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Post by tweedgv on Jun 12, 2015 15:12:11 GMT -5
well in fairness, newey was paraphrasing....... but lets not argue over who killed who.. firstly...... how do i test it? secondly.......... i have measured up my existing pots... they have an approx: 16mm base diameter 15mm shaft length (10mm above plate) 8mm shaft diameter even searching for a 500k push pull pot with a short shaft length has yielded very slim pickings...... it seems most push pulls (in the uk at least) come with long 18mm shafts. only 3mm longer in the specs but they do look a lot longer in the photos... would this just mean getting new control knobs? i currently have small jaguar style knobs on it and getting replacements ain't a big deal really..... this is the closest i have come to matching the pots but they don't give every spec: Goldo E500p www.dv247.com/guitars/g%C3%B6ldo-push-pull-guitar-pot-switch--215681?gclid=Cj0KEQjwhuqrBRCFuPz4ipOx5JIBEiQAZJ7F-jRn68dAhTKelru81jjpq2M0GDFspwR_SkcLL-h7MAkaApYh8P8HAQ
they ain't the cheapest but i guess i don't mind spending that on a good quality brand...... are they? and can i use it for both tone and volume.... i really appreciate the help
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tweedgv
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Post by tweedgv on Jun 12, 2015 15:29:29 GMT -5
only way i could get this on here (click to enlarge) I was thinking i'd have a crack at this wiring with the new pots but i'm not 100% on a few things.....
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tweedgv
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Post by tweedgv on Jun 12, 2015 16:13:31 GMT -5
one of them being...... how are these circled areas connected? or are they two separate wires running to the same place?? similarly.... whats going on in this purple wire area (circled in image below)? again, are they 2 wires going to and from the same place, or are they joined??? also..... i don't see any capacitor in the diagram or is it in the bottom left of the image (blue arrow), if not, what is that? Attachments:
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Post by ashcatlt on Jun 13, 2015 15:06:35 GMT -5
one of them being...... how are these circled areas connected? or are they two separate wires running to the same place?? Any way you want. It's usually easiest to collect them at one or another convenient lug rather than "in mid air" as depicted. shrug :/ You've got it right, it's the tone cap.
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tweedgv
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Post by tweedgv on Jun 14, 2015 14:59:07 GMT -5
Ok thanks.......... Clears a few things up I think.
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tweedgv
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Post by tweedgv on Jun 15, 2015 8:42:51 GMT -5
one of them being...... how are these circled areas connected? or are they two separate wires running to the same place?? similarly.... whats going on in this purple wire area (circled in image below)? again, are they 2 wires going to and from the same place, or are they joined??? also..... i don't see any capacitor in the diagram or is it in the bottom, left ground in the image (blue arrow), if not, what is that? thanks again for taking the time to help me out....
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tweedgv
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Post by tweedgv on Jun 17, 2015 1:04:03 GMT -5
Has anyone else got any information on the pots and diagram please?
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Post by newey on Jun 17, 2015 5:42:30 GMT -5
Tweedy- Well, it's a diagram that I drew, so I guess I should know something about it. But I don't recall the context or what the thread was where I posted it. The 'ol neurons just don't fire like they used to do . . . As ashcatlt noted, ideally the wires should not connect "in mid air", so to speak. As always, the problem is one of making the diagram legible. But, yes, where two or more wires come together, they are connected- not in "mid-air", but to a common lug. Wires which cross each other on the diagram but which are not connected together are shown with one wire having a "hump" over the other. There is only one purple wire. It connects the lower left-sided lugs of the 2 push/pull pots together. It doesn't connect to anything else, and nothing else is connected to those 2 lugs. Just so we're clear on what is going on here, in this scheme: The two slide switches control each HB, respectively. With the switch slid to the right, the coils are connected in parallel, with the switch to the left, the coils are connected in series. The center position is "off" for each pickup. The P/P pots control the switching between the 2 pickups, in what we here call a "binary tree" arrangement. I'm not sure which way the switches are wired (and no time to trace it through at the moment.) But basically, with both P/Ps down, the 2 pickups are connected in parallel, with both up they're in series. One P/P up, the other down gives one pickup alone, and the opposite gives the other pickup alone. Again, I don't recall the context of this, and I don't know if this was ever vetted for accuracy or whether it was ever successfully built. We need to do some homework here before you start wiring. The diagram should probably be redrawn for clarity as well- it needs to have more room so we don't have so many wires crossing each other. I also note that there's some redundancy in the scheme, since there are 2 ways to select a single pickup- the P/Ps will select either pickup when in a "one up, one down" configuration, and the slide switches allow the individual picks to be turned off. Having the "off" setting for both does allow for an "all off" setting, which can be useful on stage, so as to have a second guitar plugged in and on "standby". But that's a small thing, and we could probably come up with a way to avoid the redundancy and to use the slide switch center position for something else. Or, one of the P/Ps could be eliminated, leaving one for series/parallel between the 2 pups, and using the slide switches to select one pickup alone. This would simplify things quite a bit and would be cheaper. As far as the pots, I've never heard of the brand "Goldo". These are presumably of Asian manufacture, quality unknown. (That's not a knock, the quality of most of the parts from there is good; just no experience with those particular ones. The so-called "dime-size" pots are actually a nominal 17 mm diameter. As for the shaft diameter,, this is usually 6mm, measuring the shaft itself, not the threads. The 6 mm diameter is roughly equal to the US-spec 1/4 inch diameter (in other words, the knobs should interchange). You do need to select whether you need a knurled shaft or a smooth shaft to match the existing knobs.
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tweedgv
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Post by tweedgv on Jun 17, 2015 9:53:42 GMT -5
OK - thanks newey having read the thread a few times (from which have i copied the diagram), i believe the build was successful, plus i think the centre position of slide switches were at least meant to be single coil... heres a quote taken from one of your posts in the thread: "both P/P up is series, both down is parallel. Tone P/P up, Vol P/P down gives neck only (with the bridge hanging from hot . . .). Vol P/P up, tone down gives bridge only. If the opposite is wanted, the wiring is just flipped vertically on both P/Ps. BDN- Note that on a P/P pot, with the knob down, the lugs furthest away from the pot are connected to the centre lugs. The slide switches, L to R as shown, should give Series/ South Coil/ Parallel. I believe I said the North coil earlier; using SD wiring colors (Gr= South Start, Red = SF, Black= NS, White= NF) it should be the South coil that's selected on both slide switches. As I said, you may wish to vary one of the two." available @: guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/5238/get-most-jag-stang?page=3the schematic i believe to be your creation, with slight modifications by johnH..... it is understandable you cannot remember, it was posted in 2011 . it would be great if you could have a check of it though.... am i right in thinking that the only wires missing on the diagram are the two un-shielded wires coming from each pup, and these wires go straight to ground tab along with the other two on the bottom right of the diagram?? really appreciate the help, thanks again..
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Post by newey on Jun 17, 2015 20:41:16 GMT -5
Yes, those are the shield wires from the pickups, and they go to ground always.
I looked at this quickly this morning during my first cup of coffee, so if I said the center position was single coil back then, that was probably right.
If you're of a mind to build it, we should redraw it as it is one of my crappier diagrams. None of mine are particularly artistic, or even legible, but this one seems to be a low point.
It would be a while before I could redraw it, but you're welcome to try, and we'll vet your efforts. Drawing it yourself is also a means for visual learning, you'll know the scheme much better after doing so.
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tweedgv
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Post by tweedgv on Jun 18, 2015 1:10:01 GMT -5
That sounds like a good idea.... I'll get onto it as soon as possible. I have the Adobe suite available to me as I work at the local college so it might give me the chance to familiarise myself with new software..
I'll post my efforts when I'm done
Thank you
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tweedgv
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Post by tweedgv on Jun 18, 2015 11:48:51 GMT -5
i have had a go at drawing the diagram....... its pretty hectic.... i'm not sure i've improved on yours at all, but it makes sense to my untrained eye ..... (sorry if its shite though) I have gone through the diagram to check i've not made any mistakes, and i think its good...... i'm not 100% sure on the ring and tip section, as its slightly different from the original.... My Jag-Stang Drawing.docx (328.53 KB) again... all help is greatly appreciated.
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Post by ashcatlt on Jun 18, 2015 16:58:16 GMT -5
I haven't looked too far into this, but I can tell you the jack is definitely wired backwards. The just swap tip and sleeve and that part at least will be right. You should also make sure that the (new) sleeve or the V pot lug to which it connects (or should) is also connected to ground. Of course, using those upside down triangle things for ground kind of takes it out of the realm of pure wiring diagram toward a more "shorthand", almost schematic. A "real" wiring diagram would show wires connecting all of those points. Not a huge deal, pretty common, most folks will understand, but...
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Post by newey on Jun 18, 2015 18:27:14 GMT -5
In the prior thread, I noted:
These are SD colors, and tweed has SDs, so all good on that front. One HB is wired "inside out" for hum-cancelling between the 2 SCs when both pickups are split.
The slide switch wiring looks good, haven't got through the rest of it yet. Ashcatlt is right, the jack is backwards.
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tweedgv
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Post by tweedgv on Jun 19, 2015 5:02:03 GMT -5
I have altered the wiring on the jack... I have also added a few of the ground wires but I am not 100% on any of the others, so any information regarding the grounds coming from the pots/switches etc would be great.. I have also attached the word document I used to draw the diagram, so if anyone wants to add/amend anything that too would be class .... As an afterthought, i used microsoft word on my mac to draw it, so using anything else might cause the drawing to go all to pot, frustratingly..
Thanks again guys.
My Jag-Stang Drawing.docx (348.74 KB)
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Post by newey on Jun 19, 2015 5:37:52 GMT -5
OK, I think that's all OK, but let's get another set of eyes on it to be sure.
A source of confusion is that two of the pickup wires swap colors when they hit the slide switch. On the neck, the red wire switches to black at the slide switch, and the black switches to red for the bridge pup. I know that you copied that over from the original, I think that resulted from me making "changes on the fly" to the original diagram. But it makes it hard to follow the wiring and probably should be corrected for clarity's sake.
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Post by ashcatlt on Jun 19, 2015 10:39:12 GMT -5
The metal bodies of all of the pots and switches really should be grounded. We can argue just how much difference it actually makes, but it's best practices stuff. If they're all in contact with grounded cavity shielding, then it's already done, but if you really want your diagram to have every connection illustrated, then you'd probably best show these.
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