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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2016 15:48:39 GMT -5
Put the 1st beech dowel in : Will drill maybe tomorrow evening. Maybe not, by the time I get home at 20:00 I got precisely 1 hour before sunset. That's not much. Maybe I'll schedule for Saturday morning or Sunday. Point is that I have to do them one by one, if I want the old holes to serve as template.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2016 4:21:53 GMT -5
Pilot hole :
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2016 3:09:25 GMT -5
This failed as well in the same exact way after 22 hrs of curing. WTF??
I had forgotten to clean the old glue leftovers from the hole. or whatever the tech had put in there.... arghhhhhhhhhh Then I cleaned the hole with vinegar and a ear cotton stick, and then light sanded the sides of the hole in order to get the old glue out or whatever was in there and possibly made this fail the second time. Then I used more glue, and I pressed it really tight. I clean excess glue. I will wait full 24 hrs this time before I attempt to put the neck back on.
Lets see if this goes good, and I am confident then maybe I will proceed with the rest of screw holes.
Still I am puzzled : the sawdust fix + bison super wood glue holds proudly strong after 1.5 years, while the dowel fix has failed once by the work of the tech and then by my first attempt.... Something is not obvious here..
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Post by cynical1 on Jul 13, 2016 11:19:16 GMT -5
This failed as well in the same exact way after 22 hrs of curing. WTF?? I think you answered your own question when you added, " I had forgotten to clean the old glue leftovers from the hole. or whatever the tech had put in there.... arghhhhhhhhhh". Since none of us but the tech know what he used using a solvent may do nothing more than piss off the old glue. Re-drilling to the next size up would have been a sure way to have a clean surface to glue a new dowel into. What type of glue did you use? Since you've gone through all the trouble of taking the guitar apart, you might want to give it a few days to setup prior to re-assembly. I can only guess why the dowel fix failed. I've seen the words "super glue" bandied about, so that would be my first guess. Not wiping the rosewood dowel with acetone after sanding it to size may be another as the natural oils in rosewood are no great friends with most adhesives. On the second go around you mentioned not removing the old glue prior to re-gluing. That can cause poor adhesion and a failure to form a solid bond. Your new glue can only bond to the old adhesive, which has already failed once already. I believe the term "building a house on sand" applies here. To be honest, the one I really can't answer is why the sawdust\Bison wood glue trick actually worked at all. Or, it could just be that guitar... Tell me, can you see three sixes carved somewhere in the neck pocket or body routings? Happy Trails Cynical One
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2016 12:03:27 GMT -5
Hello Cyn1, when I say bison super wood glue, this is PVA, think of smth like TiteBond III the external water resistant variation. One trick I thought of but did not apply (I come home every 20:00 and only have 1 hour to work on the guitar before the dark kicks in, so even if the family is away, I still do things .... on the fast side of things) is this: after applying PVA and plugging in firmly, then immediately to drill the pilot hole, and screw in the screw, thus compressing the plug wood to the sides, ensuring an even tighter fit. Tomorrow my boss told me to go to work early, you told me to wait so no assembly today or tomorrow. Cyn1, how many days would you recommend to let the PVA glue cure? About the 3 6's haha I don't see anything in there, maybe it is written somewhere backwards... Or might be that this guitar accepts only amateur half-butt fixes ... Man, seriously, I'd like to find an excuse to do all the holes..... To be frank, I don't feel that eager anymore. Will know soon.
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Post by cynical1 on Jul 13, 2016 13:56:57 GMT -5
Hey Greek -
If it were me, I'd let the glue setup for 3-5 days. If the hole is tight enough on the dowel you don't need to use a screw to add compression. I make mine very snug and use a rawhide hammer to tap them in and use a chisel to flush them. Never had one fail yet.
One suggestion, before you do the other holes, is to test this fix first. Let the guitar sit until Saturday. Reassemble it and play the Hell out of it. Whammy to your heart's content. If it holds, then do the other 3 holes. If it fails again, get very warm and fuzzy with the idea of using threaded inserts.
Ibanez stuck you, and everyone else that bought this model guitar, with a poor neck pocket design. Think about it. They've added a 7th string, which increases the tension on the neck, plus a trem-leo which compounds the issue, all in an open neck pocket design with the same screw configuration as a standard 6 string guitar. If that doesn't have "obvious point of failure" written all over it I can't think of a better example.
Hang in there...maybe someone will steal it.
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2016 14:43:43 GMT -5
Hey Greek - If it were me, I'd let the glue setup for 3-5 days. If the hole is tight enough on the dowel you don't need to use a screw to add compression. I make mine very snug and use a rawhide hammer to tap them in and use a chisel to flush them. Never had one fail yet. One suggestion, before you do the other holes, is to test this fix first. Let the guitar sit until Saturday. Reassemble it and play the Hell out of it. Whammy to your heart's content. If it holds, then do the other 3 holes. If it fails again, get very warm and fuzzy with the idea of using threaded inserts. Ibanez stuck you, and everyone else that bought this model guitar, with a poor neck pocket design. Think about it. They've added a 7th string, which increases the tension on the neck, plus a trem-leo which compounds the issue, all in an open neck pocket design with the same screw configuration as a standard 6 string guitar. If that doesn't have "obvious point of failure" written all over it I can't think of a better example. Hang in there...maybe someone will steal it. Happy Trails Cynical One Spot on everything Cyn1! I use a rubber head hammer like the ones used to sit the frets. haha, nice excuse about stealing... although I would still be in love with the RG design. I will wait till Saturday, and if it works then I promise I will not get the tools to a distance shorter than 1M to the guitar, ever. I am sick of it. This is a great guitar, sounds great, weighs great, plays fast... BUT.. its materials are just .... soft.... soft maple, soft rosewood, soft metal.... I got this new for about 890 EUR, now they sell it for about 1400 EUR!!! 1.5 year after. This is insane. I might get its pieces together, sell it on ebay and then go for something MIJ, I dunno. Chances are that if I fix it, I will go on bragging on how great it plays until the "Beast" strikes again.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2016 0:23:58 GMT -5
Just a theory about the sawdust + wood glue (PVA) fix : I coated the threads with super glue (CyA). I don't know, I didn't have one failure on them since one year+ ago. But I like the new threads I cut on the new dowel better. Let's wait till Saturday.
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Post by cynical1 on Jul 14, 2016 14:22:13 GMT -5
The fact that the Bison\sawdust fix held better than the plug is counter intuitive. I don't even have a good guess.
The plug failure, from experience, points to a missed step by the tech who installed the plug. Rosewood is a good choice based on hardness, but the oils in rosewood would make me think twice about using it without soaking it in acetone for a few minutes and wiping dry before gluing it...or it could have been his choice in adhesives. Crazy glue is better for repairing finishes than gluing wood.
That aside, as the tech seemed knowledgeable, let me make one suggestion before you screw everything back together. Without the screwheads sticking up above the ferrules, how many sizes can you jump? By that I mean, how much larger diameter screw can you use before they're just too big for the ferrules? As long as you're plugging the original holes jumping up a size or two can't be a bad thing.
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2016 0:53:57 GMT -5
Cyn1, Now the screws have 5mm external dia. Ferrules, body holes can take up to 6 or 7 easily. But, this is minor, as I tried to assembly this morning (after 2.5 days of curing), and after some heavy trem usage I noticed slight motion again. I tried to screw tighter --> same failure. Frankly I don't think another 12 hours would make any difference. So, after this, I sanded really good this time, changed the wood glue brand, and re-install the same plug (which is the 3rd plug : 1st was rosewood, 2nd was beech, 3rd beech as well which now is in its 2nd attempt). Something tells me this might fail again. So what's next? gluing with ultra strong metal Epoxy (I have good experience with the fret repair)?? glueing with Methylmethacrylate?? No plug and filling with Meathylmethacrylate and drilling into this? (that would be my choice) or going up in dowel size?
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Post by cynical1 on Jul 15, 2016 14:49:01 GMT -5
So, did the plug come out again, or did the screw strip the hole out?
For all intents and purposes, European Beech and American Hard maple have almost identical physical properties. Beech's workability is very similar to maple, so gluing a clean beech dowel into a clean maple hole...with real (I'm tempted to just mail you some TiteBond) wood glue...should hold until your hair falls out.
Tell me, is the neck shimmed, and if so, how is it shimmed? IE: full pocket shim, pieces of veneer, matchbook covers...rolling papers... Also, how thick is the shim?
As far as "metal epoxy" goes, I can see the wheels coming off of that one from here...
For now, it's a non-starter using the existing hole as is. I'd drill it out to the next size dowel. Clean dowel and clean hole. If you make the dowel slightly longer than needed you can put a clamp on the dowel to make sure the little bastard stays put. Once it dries you can chisel the dowel flush with the neck heel.
Then I'd go with the largest diameter screw that'll fit in your ferrules.
Happy Trails -
Cynical One
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2016 15:34:47 GMT -5
So, did the plug come out again, or did the screw strip the hole out? For all intents and purposes, European Beech and American Hard maple have almost identical physical properties. Beech's workability is very similar to maple, so gluing a clean beech dowel into a clean maple hole...with real (I'm tempted to just mail you some TiteBond) wood glue...should hold until your hair falls out. Tell me, is the neck shimmed, and if so, how is it shimmed? IE: full pocket shim, pieces of veneer, matchbook covers...rolling papers... Also, how thick is the shim? As far as "metal epoxy" goes, I can see the wheels coming off of that one from here... For now, it's a non-starter using the existing hole as is. I'd drill it out to the next size dowel. Clean dowel and clean hole. If you make the dowel slightly longer than needed you can put a clamp on the dowel to make sure the little bastard stays put. Once it dries you can chisel the dowel flush with the neck heel. Then I'd go with the largest diameter screw that'll fit in your ferrules. Happy Trails - Cynical One The plug came out. Don't know what is going on. In the meantime I had bought size 9mm and 10mm drill bits. (Current hole was 8mm, now after cleaning/sanding 8.2mm). As far as the glue is real or not: Man, this glue has NEVER failed me. This is top AAA+++ euro quality wood glue. Heck, people have had (me included) great success with lousy ultra cheap greek PVA, this bison is truly good, I have glued chairs with fractures on their legs and they stand strong holding 80+ Kg of weight. Glue is not the problem. The second glue was an Italian CMP SuperVinil, again I have repaired headstock breakage for a friend of ours with this one, still strong after one year. You know how many times I have successfully used PVA and I still respect this glue. BUT... for some PECULIAR reason this maple of mine does not hold any plug. It is very easy to apply some torque and destroy the bond by my bare hand using srewdriver. And I tell you I am not body builder of any sort. Now what I did... I cleaned the hole, and put a new beech plug, this time glued with MethylMethacrylate. Something tells me this will be the final mod (haha this might have dual meaning). Anyways, I have the plan for the inserts right before my eyes : M4 (8mm outer dia, 6++ inner/shaft dia) for bridge-side heel inserts/bolts. M5 (10mm outer dia, 7.5mm inner/shaft dia) for headstock-side heel inserts/bolts. If this MMA fix fails, I will plug again make the beech hole larger 7mm and then install the M4 insert. If this goes ok, do the same for its adjacent hole. After that I am going for M5 in the other holes. I think that will be the ultimate mod!
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Post by sumgai on Jul 15, 2016 20:41:03 GMT -5
gd,
I've been following this thread, and I think I might have an unusual answer for you.
Consider installing a pin to hold the dowel in place. From the side of the neck heel (or from the back of the heel, that which faces the pickups), drill a small hole through the neck wood and the dowel. Insert a pin made of either metal or wood, your choice, through the neck and the dowel together. A wood pin will allow you to drill right through it with the neck screw, so it can be placed anywhere along the dowel's length. If you want a metal pin (much stronger, but likely to be overkill), you'll have to make the dowel longer than the screw, and ensure that the pin is inserted below the screw's depth.
Consult with c1 for what type of wood to use, but my money would be on oak, cherry, or some other heavy/strong species. (Which is why I'd use a metal pin in the first place... but I like to over-engineer things. )
HTH
sumgai
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2016 0:13:00 GMT -5
Thanx SG, Good idea, I am afraid this indonesian maple is so soft (this indo guitar has much softer wood than my chinese Ibanez ), this might compromise the whole system. If the dowel cannot be held in place, it is better to just have another failure, than having the whole heel messed up. And it would be a hell of surprise for the next owner, if I happen to sell this. I will exhaust all sane and insane (mine) possibilities before going to ultra innovative (but intrusive) solutions!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2016 9:09:30 GMT -5
Just a pic of a repair I had done with this very same Bison wood glue (same box) : I hope you can see the 2 fractures here : one on the horizontal bar and one on the leg. Both were "devastative" to the chair. The chair's leg joins the ground with an angle not perpendicular, so this means more force on the fracture. The chair is fine now. Anyways, the Tech's (and I still consider him thoughtful) repair failed. My repairs failed. So, I tried to glue a new plug with MMA. then "punch" drill in place (smth like punch hole but with the drill) -> drill for pilot hole -> new threads for the actual screw. This time, IMHO the repair succeeded. I fooled this Indo "maple" with something it wouldn't expect. Seems hard for now. I cannot turn the screw any more by hand. However I had already plans for the next move if this failed. And to be frank, I will know tomorrow for sure. I am thinking of the inserts, but not as a standalone system, but literally in MMA (as was Cyn's idea). This MMA is much harder than wood and sticks to wood like nothing I had tried. Since my clearances from the edges of the heel are not very within limits, one way to create a robust system for the inserts wich acts like one body with the wood would be MMA. + its color is too close to maple . it feels natural on wood. Anyway i will wait. Here is a pic of the dowel after 12 Hrs of MMA curing (I was supposed to wait 24 Hrs. Tonight at 23:00 will be the final test):
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Post by cynical1 on Jul 16, 2016 12:12:54 GMT -5
I want to digress a bit...big surprise there...and pick up on a pearl Greek tossed out when he said "this Indonesian maple is so soft".
[DIGRESSION]
As a minion apprentice in a pattern shop, at a now extinct foundry, one of my jobs was to plane rough cut boards to spec on this ancient cast iron planer about the size of a refrigerator...this monster should have been melted down after WWI, but I believe they kept it around for hazing purposes.
We received a shipment of maple for some special pattern. I can still see the big red maple leaf stenciled on the stack. While I was cutting the bands an old pattern maker walked in and noticed the red maple leaf. He began muttering some profanities under his breath, but his main grievance was that it was going to take me forever to plane these down.
Once his Tourette episode ended I was given a piece of wisdom by this old pattern maker: "The colder it is where the wood grows the slower it grows...and the harder it's gonna be...and it's cold as a well digger's @ss in Canada, kid. Have fun." Over the next two days I understood exactly what he meant. You had to back off the cut and make additional passes to hit your thickness spec. I had to take all three blades sets for the router over to the machine shop to have them reground just so I could finish this one stack.
I remember genuinely hating that damn maple leaf.
[/DIGRESSION]
[HISTORY and CONJECTURE]
Gibson originally used eastern rock maple for the tops on their Les Pauls. Over the years they switched to predominantly western maple, allegedly because the figuring is so much more pronounced on western maple...which, honestly, it is. However, as a "for profit" business, I believe there was a more practical reason. Western maple is about 35% softer than eastern maple. Softer wood means more life out of your tooling. More life out of your tooling means more money in your pockets.
[/HISTORY and CONJECTURE]
So, what was the point of all this drivel? There are hundreds of maple (acer) species growing on this planet. We've already covered the ones from Canada. So, logically running this line of logic out, what does this suggest about Asian maple? Well, it's a lot warmer in Indonesia than it is in Canada. The lesson being that the slower a tree grows the harder the wood will be. Taking similar species and growing them in different parts of the world will effect this growth rate, thus effect their hardness. If maple can drop 30%-35% in hardness just by moving a few hundred miles within North America, one can only imagine what the drop in hardness is when the maple species are growing near the Equator.
Now, this is not to say your Ibanez neck is inferior. My point is that since the late 80's and early 90's I've seen more warping and twisting of necks on guitars and basses that I ever did on guitars out of the 60's and 70's. IMHO, over harvesting and sourcing from faster growing Asian forests has made a difference on the longevity and performance of instruments constructed over the past 25-30 years...and it's likely going to get worse.
So, Greek, you pegged the reason your neck wood appears softer than what you "believed" maple should be. Where it was sourced contributed in some measure to the issues of your screws stripping out.
I don't think you're going to have problems with the beech dowels. For Reference, here's the spec on Hard Maple and European Beech:
Common Name(s): European Beech
Scientific Name: Fagus sylvatica
Distribution: Europe
Tree Size: 100-130 ft (30-40 m) tall, 3-5 ft (1-1.5 m) trunk diameter
Average Dried Weight: 44 lbs/ft3 (710 kg/m3)
Specific Gravity (Basic, 12% MC): .53, .71
Janka Hardness: 1,450 lbf (6,460 N)
Modulus of Rupture: 15,970 lbf/in2 (110.1 MPa)
Elastic Modulus: 2,075,000 lbf/in2 (14.31 GPa)
Crushing Strength: 8,270 lbf/in2 (57.0 MPa)
Shrinkage: Radial: 5.7%, Tangential: 11.6%, Volumetric: 17.3%, T/R Ratio: 2.0
____
Common Name(s): Hard Maple, Sugar Maple, Rock Maple
Scientific Name: Acer saccharum
Distribution: Northeastern North America
Tree Size: 80-115 ft (25-35 m) tall, 2-3 ft (.6-1.0 m) trunk diameter
Average Dried Weight: 44 lbs/ft3 (705 kg/m3)
Specific Gravity (Basic, 12% MC): .56, .71
Janka Hardness: 1,450 lbf (6,450 N)
Modulus of Rupture: 15,800 lbf/in2 (109.0 MPa)
Elastic Modulus: 1,830,000 lbf/in2 (12.62 GPa)
Crushing Strength: 7,830 lbf/in2 (54.0 MPa)
Shrinkage: Radial: 4.8%, Tangential: 9.9%, Volumetric: 14.7%, T/R Ratio: 2.1
As you can see, these two species are almost identical, so a clean hole and dowel should just require a tight fit and some good wood glue to do the job. I will be interested to see how the MMA performs for this fix.
And finally, let me just repeat myself one more time: Act in haste, repent in leisure. If the directions say wait 24 hours, why not give it 48 hours. It ain't a race, and in this case, the guy who tries to run ahead gets to do it again...
Well, my brain hurts...time for more coffee.
Happy Trails
Cynical One
EDIT: Almost forgot, what were the answers to the shim questions?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2016 4:21:15 GMT -5
Nice write up Cyn1! Sorry I forgot, the neck originally had a shim (paperboard), then I removed it, then recently (6 months ago) I installed an identical-sized shim made of self-adhesive 160 grit sandpaper, it was supposed to help the neck stay still. Now, I have bad news and bad news. MMA seemed at first stronger than the previous attempts. But in the end, the result was the same. I had to apply more force with this one, but it did turn, and failed. Then I thought : heck 8mm is VERY small plug. The surface of the glue is not large enough to provide the necessary resistance to torque. So I decided to try 10mm plug of greek beech (not greek b h ) which seems pretty hard, equal IMHO to the 8mm euro beech plugs. Then the whole thing collapsed while drilling. Nothing fatal, but still ugly. Here is the new "hole" - 10mm : 2016-07-17_12-07-43 by panixgr, on Flickr 2016-07-17_12-08-00 by panixgr, on Flickr 20160717_120939 by panixgr, on Flickr 20160717_120949 by panixgr, on Flickr I don't know. At this point I feel either going crying to mama (or wife whoever is available) and sending the guitar to the tech, or biting the bullet and keep going. I have considered the inserts many many times, I had them all planned, BUT I dont think there is space any more, not even for the M4 insert. This insert is 8mm long, 8mm outer thread dia, 6mm inner thread dia (while the bolt itself / machine screw has 4mm dia). I have two more inserts which are also M4 but 12mm long and I am thinking those are more appropriate. Now If I go with the inserts, the wood hole would have to be 7mm (average between outer insert thread dia : 8mm and inner insert thread dia : 6mm). Will the 10mm plug be sufficient for this?? I am afraid no. Any thoughts? mama/wife/tech or keep destroying a guitar that was meant to be dead upon arrival in the first place?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2016 4:39:20 GMT -5
The plug is not glued on the above photo. Here are the 3 kinds of inserts I have : 2016-07-17_12-26-54 by panixgr, on Flickr I already described the two M4 inserts (brass and steel). The other shown are steel M5 (10mm long, 10mm outer dia, 8mm inner dia, bolt dia : 5mm) I am stuck. I am not doing anything till I make some (right?) decision.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2016 11:06:24 GMT -5
took it to the tech. I stayed there for about 1 hour. He will cut a new orthogonal maple piece with the router and substitute the whole front. Then he will put maple dowels both to the neck and to the body..... He didn't seem freaked out when he saw the last attempt of mine, which was a good relief!
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Post by cynical1 on Jul 17, 2016 12:11:47 GMT -5
I want you to know that when I saw the latest pictures I had a moment of silence for you. That qualifies as an "OH crap!" moment. Your "OH crap!" Merit Badge will be sent to you. The idea of backing off and taking a hard look at all of your options before trying something else is very good one. The last thing you want to do now is compound the problem. Patience is the tool in the box you need to reach for right now. I'm still a little in awe that the business that sold you this guitar and the company that built it both appear to have left you out in the cold. Part of the problem is the design, but as I recall the original failure was the plug that bulged out of the end of the neck heel. That was their shining moment to make this right...and they seem to have snatched defeat from the jaws of victory admirably on this one. Speaking of that little bump on the neck heel, it seems it has completely failed this time. Not a huge surprise, but it does complicate the fix now. I'd feel a lot better offering advise if I could hold the neck in my hand, but for all intents and purposes we have passed the point where a simple dowel is going to fix this. I'm going to be saying "threaded insert" a lot here, because that's the only way to you're going to get the stability you need with the design you've been handed. Before I go into how I'd fix this, let me go over what I see from the pictures and your descriptions of how we found ourselves and this particular abyss. We've already beaten the "poor design" element to death. What remains is how to fix and improve on the original design to allow the guitar to be a guitar again. First off, the location of the two holes at the end of the neck heel are located very close to the edge. This leads to a structural weak point, or a potential point of failure...which we've already seen fail. The location of the neck pickup complicates re-enforcing the end of the neck heel and limits the size of a threaded insert. This is also an element you'll have to be aware of when you install the insert on the other side of the neck heel that hasn't failed yet..."yet" being the operative word. The wood on that side will be structurally weak as well when you drill it out for an insert...and is likely to fail in a similar way as we've already seen when you install the insert. That said, here's my idea of how to approach this problem so it goes away for good. Considering the remaining wood on the bad side is never going to serve a useful purpose again it's best to remove it. Think about preemptively doing the same on the other side that hasn't failed yet. Something like this: Unless you're a journeyman with a chisel, you're going to have to use a router to clean this out so what you wind up with is a square channel. You can go wider if you want to if that makes it easier to use a standard size router bit. If it were me, I'd do the same thing on the other side. Once you have your channels routed it's just a matter of gluing a piece of wood planed and joined to snuggly fit in the channel. Another point to consider is the orientation on the grain fro your filler piece. Considering wood will always split in the direction of the grain, as we've seen already, installing the piece cross-grain to your neck will put the strongest wood fibers at the weakest point at the neck heel. Old trick. After it dries just chisel and sand it flush then drill for your inserts. You can put the beefier ones in the back two holes just to play it safe. Sure it sounds simple, but you have moved into an area where you need the right tools to prevent this from becoming a fatal problem down the road. If it were me, and I had limited access to the necessary tools, I'd go looking for a cabinet maker or pattern shop. With the proper tools this is a 1 hour fix. These guys live tight tolerances every day, so the best thing you can do is shorten your learning curve by using theirs. Even if the shop won't take the job, I'd bet dollars to donuts one of the journeymen would take the job for cash. They could drill and install your inserts for you as well. For your mental health I would hope you take this advise in the spirit it is intended. Once this is all over and the guitar is back in playing order again, I'd suggest you put together a nice letter with all your pictures and detailing the crooked path that you had to follow to make their instrument right and fire it off to Ibanez. Nothing may come of it, but Ibanez has been around for a while and is certainly capable of building a better guitar than they built for you. I have to admit, if I came here and saw all the misery you've gone through with this guitar I'd certainly steer clear of buying an Ibanez 7 string guitar... As far as the shim question goes, I was asking as a potential point of stress, anything less than a full pocket shim on that open neck pocket design could aggravate the stress on the screw attachment points. I can make you one and mail it to you if you can give me the neck pocket size and the thickness of the sim at the heel. No charge. All you'd have to do is trim is to fit the relief curve on the Ibanez neck pocket and drill your holes. Hang in there, Greek, and go find a phone book. Best tool in the box right now. Happy Trails Cynical One
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2016 15:17:00 GMT -5
That was quite a read!!! And man, do you know why I trust the tech? (if you read the post above yours , I have already sent it to the tech). Because your views and his views coincide 95%. When I called the guy I asked him how the funk did the original rosewood plug fail, and he said that this is Athens summer, 30% humidity vs 60% in the winter, woods shrink, I stressed it, and ... killed it.
Now where is this 5% of difference ? He will cut a large slab and replace all the front part, cause as you wisely said, the other part has an invisible crack as well. This region is dead. So after he installs the new wood with his router, he will do this fix : - he will make the body bushing also a threaded bushing by using a dowel for the body as well, in such a way that the threads will be "virtually" common between body and neck, so that body and neck will form a common body and in such a way that there will be no clearances for the neck to move. All will be maple. He does not believe in the inserts, for some reason. This is a difference between you the two. But He has done work for the greatest Greek guitarist "Yiannis Spathas" : . I trust in this old guy! Maybe cause he is my best bet for the moment. Cyn1 if you were around, you could have all the free mouzakas and free ouzos of the world if you made this sing...
You also are dead right on the Ibanez thing. Its a shame...
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Post by cynical1 on Jul 17, 2016 18:34:55 GMT -5
Well, there was always that "don't know your own strength" element involved...
His idea on fixing the problem sounds fine to me. Anything that makes the neck\body joint more solid and secure is a good thing. I'm curious about the body bushing concept. If you can get some pictures of the job when it's finished I like to see them.
I quit drinking a while ago, but I'd take you up on the mouzakas. It sounds like this guy understands the problem and has a clever way to fix it.
It will be a good day when the screws go back in this guitar for good.
Happy trails
Cynical One
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2016 23:54:02 GMT -5
He said he should have me doing the assembly with his presence. So I could shoot a photo. No worries. Thank you for all your help! Same applies to SG as well and his idea on the "rod". I will get back with this one. The body dowel/threaded body idea is not smth that he thought for this occasion. He does this to all guitars to increase stability, as a extra mod. He insists, and this is the 3rd time he's telling me this, that the sound transfers via the screws!!! I didn't want to argue that the sound does not need to travel anywhere but stay right on the strings, but anyway I didn't want to piss him off
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Post by sumgai on Jul 18, 2016 2:34:09 GMT -5
g'dude,
As I surmised from your first statement of what the tech will do, this latest confirms my suspicions... lop off an entire section of the heel, and lay in a new piece of good strong wood that will take, and hold!, the screws. Gluing on two sides will probably be enough, but me, I'd still pin this new addition, just because I like to over-engineer.
While pondering the many ways a fix could be instituted, I realized that some of them were costly, some were ugly, some needed expensive precision/accurate tooling, and all of them were overkill. This business of simply replacing the faulty chunk of wood is the best way to go, IMO.
As to the vibration of things, and the attendant sound thereof, we need to remember that if something, anything, is vibrating at an audio frequency, then it's a part of system, and thus it contributes in either a positive or negative way. The amount of that contribution is obviously something we must consider, but nonetheless, it is there, period. Like you, I believe that your tech is placing too much emphasis on the metal screws of a neck/body joint, but given enough time, I'm sure he'll come around. Even so, your statement that "the sound needs to stay on the strings" can't happen - the strings are only part of a complex system. Insofar as a magnetic pickup is concerned (or a piezo, come to that), the strings are probably the single most important part, we agree... but they do have to "put up with" the rest of the system. As more than a few members here have stated ere now, ignoring one or more parts of a system is just like Les Nessman requiring his colleagues to 'knock' on his 'invisible' door - wishful thinking at its finest.
Looking forward to your images, and good luck!
sumgai
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2016 3:25:01 GMT -5
Thanx SG, so to summarize more formally , the mods will be :
1) new orthogonal slab of wood to replace all wood in the heel's end, at about 2+cm (1- inch) from the end of the heel 2) plug with bigger dia dowels the other two holes on the heel (on the opposite side - headstock side) 3) plug all holes in the body 4) make unified threads along body and neck, so that they are attached via the screws as one body with no clearances.
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Post by sumgai on Jul 18, 2016 11:02:37 GMT -5
gd,
I was thinking this during my previous post, but then forgot to put it in..... You might consider a 5th screw in your setup. Even if your tech considers this to be overkill, I'd call it a security blanket, if nothing else.
Just a thought.
sumgai
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2016 12:34:44 GMT -5
sure! it would hurt the resale value though. But I'd anything for less body/neck vibrations -> sustain.
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Post by cynical1 on Jul 18, 2016 13:03:02 GMT -5
Yeah, a fifth screw is something I've been lobbying for since the beginning of this thread. If it's not too late, Greek, I'd ask him about the feasibility of putting it in for you while he has it. Now is the time, as it's going to be the cheapest time for you to add this improvement since he already has the guitar apart. I think you guys are misinterpreting what the tech is actually saying. As I read Greek's explanation it makes perfect sense to me. It's not the screws, it's the tightness and stability of the body\neck joint he's going on about. This is the most important mechanical connection on a bass\guitar. It's that stability that allows the string vibration to transfer the most efficiently by helping to preserve the string's energy by not allowing it bleed off due to a weak mechanical contact. I think it's semantics we're arguing, because what he is promoting is exactly what Ibanez should have been a helluva lot more concerned about when they designed this guitar. With what he's doing now, coupled with a 5th screw on the neck you should be able to hand this guitar down to your grandchildren. Just lay off the steroids and Red Bull when tightening the neck screws... Happy Trails - Cynical One
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2016 13:12:20 GMT -5
He Cyn1, you seen my videos and my arms, do I look like a bodybuilder ? Anyway, I'll phone the tech right away about the 5th screw, although he is such a stubborn person that he'd reject the idea cause he didn't think of this first! <after 5 mins> Just called him, he said this wouldn't be necessary... (as I predicted). He told me this would prove extra strong... Lets hope.
Anyway, he is stubborn but also very knowledgeable, and I trust him. He says things I don't agree (btw he thinks I am stubborn), like my nut is low... I did all the tests + proof by playing + proof by ear that my nut is nowhere near low. But the strings weren't on to proove this. So, e.g. if I have him replace the 1st fret, which I did with metal epoxy (which works great but looks meehhh), the guy will want to raise the nut and level all frets instead of replacing the offending fret, whereas by the epoxy fix *i prooved* that the culprit was the first fret, and that by having this right the guitar plays divine. So I was reluctant to include the 1st fret in the whole overhaul.
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Post by cynical1 on Jul 18, 2016 13:26:03 GMT -5
sure! it would hurt the resale value though. But I'd anything for less body/neck vibrations -> sustain. OK, what resale value? I don't see you selling this guitar anyway. If that was your intention it would have been gone right after the tech installed the rosewood plug. Resale on Ibanez guitars isn't bad, but it ain't great either. Don't be surprised when you get the guitar back that the urge to sell it dissipates in direct proportion to how well it performs and plays. If anything, the guitar price will stay flat, or increase in resale value, as the main problem with the design has been addressed and is better than it was coming out of the factory. Don't think for a minute you're the only one experiencing this issue on an Ibanez UV70p 7-string guitar. Don't be surprised if this guitar drops out of their product line within the next couple of years...or is repainted with a better neck\body connection, given a new model number and swollen new price to match. As far as sustain, you'll probably be in Hog Metal Heaven once he's done with his repairs. The 5th screw is not something unseen in Ibanez's history. As I said, my 1995 Ibanez ATK 305 bass has 5 screws that fit in the "Ibanez" neck pocket just fine. Remember, the reason you got into this whole mess with this guitar was due to a poor design. If you want to keep this guitar, addressing this flaw to what it should have had from the factory falls upon you. It really is a simple process adding the 5th screw. You drill the fifth hole, Forstner the hole on the body, drop in some black lacquer nail polish, insert ferrule and unless someone knows that guitar only had 4 screws they'll never notice. They'll be too busy yanking the whammy bar to notice. Don't forget the pictures. Happy Trails Cynical One
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