Wiring tone problem - 2 x Injectors, 1 x Little 59

[paulie]

Hi All,

Hopefully someone will be able to help with a problem I'm currently having...

I've got a strat, and decided to heat up the pickups a bit, so i've got 2 x DiMarzio Injectors (both Neck postion models) and a Seymour Lil 59 in the bridge..
The strat has a 16 pole switch and three Bourns 500k pots (with a sprague .22 cap). Oh, and also a 470k resistor on the lil 59, as it was very shrill sounding.

I'v etried various configurations, but after getting some help from DiMarzio customer service, I've realised that because i've got two pickups the same (i.e. the middle isnt reverse wound/polarity) if they're split, they;ll sound tinny etc.. Ok. I could re-magnatize... it's an option. BUT, i'm pretty happy just blending the pickups together (without splitting), sounds pretty good..

When the middle and bridge are selected (pos.4), again, doesn't sound great. I'm led to beleive that this is a common thing with a HB mixed with a single. Of course I could get it decent if I re-magged the mid pickup.

So, as it stands i have

Pos.1 Neck
2. neck and mid
3. Mid
4. Mid and bridge (full)
5. bridge

Problem i'm having is that I can't get the middle pickup to use the lower tone pot without having it come on with the bridge pickup when pos. 4 or 5 is selected.

I've done a rough wiring diagram of how it's currently wired. Hopefully someone can help and point out my mistake..

Another thing I'm considering is changing the switch out for a 4 way and having it

1. Neck
2. Neck and mid
3. Mid
4. Bridge.

Thoughts of this?

Thanks fellas..

P.

www.flickr.com/photos/133030639@N03/22111828170/

[newey]

paulie-

Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2!

but after getting some help from DiMarzio customer service, I've realised that because i've got two pickups the same (i.e. the middle isnt reverse wound/polarity) if they're split, they;ll sound tinny etc.. Ok. I could re-magnatize... it's an option. BUT, i'm pretty happy just blending the pickups together (without splitting), sounds pretty good..

If this is what you were told by DM's customer service, it's wrong. Having the middle pickup RWRP is done solely to facilitate hum-cancellation when two single coil pickups are joined (either N + M or M + B, on a std. Strat configuration). Magnetic polarity has absolutely nothing to do with the "tinny" sound you will get from splitting your pickups.

All three of your pickups are designed as humbuckers, but to fit into a single-coil sized hole. The coils are stacked, meaning that only one coil is designed to sense the strings. Your pickups will sound tinny when split because the coils of these SC sized HBs are tiny compared to a regular sized HB coil.

So, I agree you probably won't be happy with splitting these, but "remagnetizing" (actually, it's best to flip the magnet on the middle pickup over- not sure how easy that would be to do with these pups)will only help with hum-cancellation, not the tinny sound. It'd still be tinny, just quieter.

Problem i'm having is that I can't get the middle pickup to use the lower tone pot without having it come on with the bridge pickup when pos. 4 or 5 is selected.

Do you mean that the tone pot is on in both positions 4 and 5, or that the middle pickup is on in position 5 when it should not be?

I don't know what the problem is without studying your diagram further, but you have 2 unused poles on your switch (your switch is a 4-pole, 16 lug Superswitch style, at least as it appears on your diagram). You could use one of the unused poles to switch tone pots. Also, you've got your tone pots wired differently, they should be wired the same, with the the input to the wiper and resistor to ground. I would also use separate resistors for each tone pot- Fender's original wiring shared a capacitor to save money.

As for position 4 not sounding to your liking, that is again nothing to do with "remagnetizing". All three of your pickups are HBs, so noise shouldn't be an issue. It may just be this particular combination of pickups isn't for you.

[paulie]

Hi Newey,

Thanks for yout reply.

If this is what you were told by DM's customer service, it's wrong.

Yes.  DM said (after a few emails back and fore) that it would be best to send the pickup off to them to get it re-magnetized for use in the middle position. I didn't quite understand how that would work on a stacked HB?!

Do you mean that the tone pot is on in both positions 4 and 5, or that the middle pickup is on in position 5 when it should not be?

I don't know what the problem is without studying your diagram further, but you have 2 unused poles on your switch (your switch is a 4-pole, 16 lug Superswitch style, at least as it appears on your diagram). You could use one of the unused poles to switch tone pots. Also, you've got your tone pots wired differently, they should be wired the same, with the the input to the wiper and resistor to ground. I would also use separate resistors for each tone pot- Fender's original wiring shared a capacitor to save money.

As for position 4 not sounding to your liking, that is again nothing to do with "remagnetizing". All three of your pickups are HBs, so noise shouldn't be an issue. It may just be this particular combination of pickups isn't for you.

As it stands (and in accordance with the diagram), the pickups are good and work as I want (until I change my mind no doubt!).  The tone problem is that neither of the tone pots have an effect on the middle pickup.  When i try to add this feature, I end up bridging the mid and bridge pickups somehow and both will then be switched on when usng Pos. 4 AND 5. 

Hopefully someone can do a quick sketch to illustrate what I should do.  I have more caps, so can add another one. 
Also, i'm thinking that a standard 4 way switch might be the way to go.... not too sure yet...

I'm a bit of a dummy with wiring, but good with the nuts and bolts of guitars (i build from scratch too), so hopefully I'll be able to be of some help on this forum.  (Seems to be a good bunch of people on here    )

[ashcatlt]

The description of the 2 and 4 positions leads me to wonder if that middle pickup is out of phase with the others. Do a quick screwdriver test to find out. "Re-magnetizing" would definitely fix that, but so would just reversing the wiring of that pickup. Rewiring is much quicker and easier as long as the "bottom" wire is not also a shield/chassis wire.

As for the T pot thing: Do you want the B and M to share that pot so that it's active in positions 2 through 5, but still have only the appropriate pickup(s) playing, or do you want it "only" on the middle (positions 2-4) like on a normal strat. Either can be done easily with the switch you have.

BTW - I'm counting 24 lugs on that switch.

[paulie]

Hi there,

BTW - I'm counting 24 lugs on that switch.

Duuuuhhhh...... had a blonde moment there! 

The neck and mid pickups are identical. Same part number (and I checked with DM just in case).  They're both designed to be neck postition. 

Here's part of an email from DM

Both pickups are standard-polarity. Reversing the red and green connections will reverse the phase, which you don’t want. One option is to return the middle pickup to us to be remagnetized (North up). The other option is to forego splitting the neck and middle pickups in position 2. If you want to remagnetize the pickup, our address is:

As far as the tone pot assignment, I'd like the lower TP to control positions 4 and 5 and the other pot to take care of 1 to 3.  I'm not really fussy mind you, so as long as I can get tone control of all pickups, i'll be happy. Just need a hand working it out.  It's just at the moment I can't seem to do this without having pickups coming on together that shouldnt.

I've mentioned maybe using a four way switch in the future so that it could give me

1. neck
2. neck/mid (no stack HB splitting)
3. Mid
4. Bridge

Could anyone out there give me a diagram for this? maybe someone's done something similar already? In which case a four position switch with the lower tone only applying to the bridge HB would be best no?

Cheers 

[newey]

I've mentioned maybe using a four way switch in the future so that it could give me

1. neck
2. neck/mid (no stack HB splitting)
3. Mid
4. Bridge

Could anyone out there give me a diagram for this? maybe someone's done something similar already?

I don't know why you'd want to lose the M+ B, even if you aren't crazy about the sound. It's just an extra position to flip past, and you've already got the 5-way switch.

But if you're set on that idea, it can probably be done, depending on the specific "4-way" switch you have in mind. Fender's so-called "Baja switch" is one such, but there are others. I think what you want is probably possible with the Baja switch, although I don't think that anyone has drawn such a scheme up or tried it as yet. Usually, the Baja switch is wired so as to give a series setting, the "Baja Tele" wiring.

I'd like the lower TP to control positions 4 and 5 and the other pot to take care of 1 to 3.

With the Superswitch, you probably have enough poles to do this, but why? This means that the mid pup will be first on one tone pot, then will be switched over to the other (as the middle pickup is "on" in positions 2,3 and 4.) Why switch the mid pup between the two tone pots?

If you want to have tone control of all pickups independently, that can be done, but you'd either have to lose your volume pot or use at least one concentric pot. Otherwise, you have 3 pickups and 2 tone pots, so someone's either gotta share, or someone else goes without.

The std. Strat configuration has the tones assigned to the neck and mid, with no bridge tone control. A popular option is to move one pot to the bridge pickup alone, and either leave the other tone control for the neck alone, or make the second control handle both the N and M pups.

With the first option, with the Bridge and neck having their own tone controls, and none on the mid pup, one avoids the interaction of having both tone pots operating at the N + M position. On the other hand, if a tone for the mid is desired, then the second option gives tone control over all three pickups, but you'll have 2 tone pots operating at the M + B position.

EDIT:Also, unless you decide to split the coils, remagnetizing is not an issue. But ashcatlt is right, you should check for correct phasing just to be sure. It's easy enough to do and would eliminate at least one potential cause.

[paulie]

A popular option is to move one pot to the bridge pickup alone, and either leave the other tone control for the neck alone, or make the second control handle both the N and M pups.

Thanks Again Newey,

What you've said above sounds good.  Spot on actually..  I like the idea of the Bridge having it's own tone now that I think about it...

That's the great thing about forums, lots of ideas to be had and different perspectives on things. Thanks.

Now then..  Just need a diagram.    Would anyone venture into doing a sketch maybe?