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Post by lookbunnyrabbit on Oct 31, 2015 22:53:55 GMT -5
Ok , heres where I am after 3 day of beating my head into a wall. I thought it would be a straight forward job to merge two wiring schemes that I like together. Maybe not so much. Could some kind soul help me un-F@#* this. Heres the one I am trying to make out of the other two. Starting with this. Trying to add this to the powerhouse wiring.
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Post by lookbunnyrabbit on Nov 6, 2015 17:13:17 GMT -5
Cleaned up the drawing some so its a bit easier on the eyes. one of the many areas Im not sure of is where the tone cap is placed.
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Post by newey on Nov 7, 2015 9:04:43 GMT -5
lbr-
Sorry that no one got back to you on this, but I confess to not being able to read the wiring in/around that Superswitch. It's a pretty diagram but not very easy on the eyes, even in the revised version.
But also, the two schemes you are trying to merge both show 3 single coil pickups, but your new diagram shows a 4th one? Where did that come from?
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Post by lookbunnyrabbit on Nov 7, 2015 9:17:45 GMT -5
Im sorry about that, I tried to do my best to make it readable. Ive never had to deal with so many wires before on a drawing.
The 4th pickup is a dummy coil. It is also in the powerhouse diagram along side of the pots. All 3 pickups are the same(north) the fourth is south. Wires in blue are white the pots are: Vol 50k AT Tone 250k AT (replaced with S1 250k AT) Boost 25k AT tone cap .022uf resister 1: 24k resister 2: 47k
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Post by newey on Nov 7, 2015 9:17:47 GMT -5
As for the tone control, the Powerhouse scheme doesn't show any tone capacitors which I take to mean that the tone control is an active one, and the capacitance is supplied at the Powerhouse board. Is there any description of what the knobs are doing in that scheme?
EDIT: OK, I got confused, I see the tone cap now on the first diagram. Part of the problem is trying to flip back and forth between three diagrams.
A couple of general points: First, if we are going to try to be able to vet your diagram, it needs to be expanded so the connections can be traced. This is really the kind of thing where we should be starting with a schematic rather than a wiring diagram. Second, the powerhouse module is treated in a "black box" fashion, IOW, we don't know what's going on inside. That's probably fine if the whole thing is switched in/out at some point, but if not we may not be able to tell if it's playing well with the S1 wiring.
Finally, at the very least, we will need a "truth table" setting out what you expect to happen for each position of the S1 and the superswitch. I got what happens with the Am Dlx scheme, but where does the Powerhouse module come into play?
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Post by lookbunnyrabbit on Nov 7, 2015 9:21:11 GMT -5
the tone control on the powerhouse diagram shows a .022uf on the tone control (middle pot) As you can see from my description (above) of the pots, I have no choice but to use the S1 as the tone. Otherwise I am sure this would be much easier to do.
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Post by lookbunnyrabbit on Nov 7, 2015 9:47:43 GMT -5
Well that is where I get in over my head. Here is the truth table from my other strat which is wired with that S1 wiring diagram.
S1 in Up position (Stnd Stratocaster) Pos 1.---------------Neck Pos 2. --------------Neck in parallel with Middle Pos 3.---------------Middle Pos 4. --------------Middle in Parallel with Bridge Pos 5. --------------Bridge S1 in Down positon Pos 1.---------------Neck in series with Middle Pos 2.---------------Neck in Parallel with Bridge Pos 3.---------------Both virtual humbuckers in parallel Pos 4.---------------virtual bridge HB in parallel with neck Pos 5.---------------Bridge in series with Middle
I realized that because I dont have a reverse wound middle that the down position isnt going to be the same. I was just hoping to get it in the ball park. Being lickdysic and having the attention span of a ferret, working out wiring is something of a week long affair. It would be nice if I could replicate those positions as I use all off them. I originally wanted to do exactly the same scheme but I also love the mid boost that the powerhouse provides as well as the hum cancelling. Somewhere in my feeble mind, I thought I would like the best of both. (not knowing even if it is possible.)
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Post by sumgai on Nov 7, 2015 14:05:49 GMT -5
A couple o' friends o' mine wrote a special song, just for you: Now that we've got that outta the way, let's figure out where things went south... Oh, wait........... As is the usual case, The Force was with newey, particularly when he said that we should be looking at schematics here, and not wiring diagrams. The reason being, schematics are made for design work, diagrams are made for putting the results of our design work into real world practice. It's much easier to move a 'virtual' wire on a schematic than a real one on a layout, doncha think? That said, my head about 'sploded when I looked at your included images. I mean, the hackles on the back of my neck raised more than a few times, lemme tell ya. F'rinstance, what's a "virtual" humbucker? Is it nothing more than one pup being in series with another, or am I going blind? And speaking of blind, I want whatever the guy who drew that diagram was smoking.... Didn't you at least stop to wonder why the Bridge Minus lead is going to the top-most pup, yet the Bridge Positive lead is going to the bottom-most pup? !!!! Next up, how is it that the so-called "powerhouse" circuit needs a whole pickup (positioned as a dummy) wired between the standard pickups and the module? I see this as nothing more than a low-pass filter on a gargantuan scale, one that will affect the tone, fersure. How much, and how pleasantly, that's up to you to decide, but me, I'm not gonna inhale from that particular pipe, I hope you'll understand. In other words, before I even got to first base, there were some questions that seriously need answers. And that's before we even get to the Black Box. newey's correct here too, we can't just assume anything, we need to have a full accounting for every lead attached to that module - what's input, what's output, etc. Just about anything is possible, if we think about it long enough. Yes, there are some things that can't be done, but that percentage is pretty small, considering what The NutzHouse has accomplished over the years. I see in your future at least a few kind souls who will help you "un-F@#* this". But first, we need info, and almighty few of us have the time to go Googling about the innerwebs - that's your job. Like the late and very much lamented ChrisK often said, "Fish for you must yourself, grasshopper - bait can only I cut." HTH sumgai
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Post by lookbunnyrabbit on Nov 7, 2015 15:51:32 GMT -5
I do get what you mean and why about the schematic. My issues stems from me only partially being able to follow one, let alone make one. I do have this nifty box of crayons though. fixed the n- and b- That was me when cutting up the drawings I had. Heres how the mid-boost connects Red - 9v black - ground yellow - audio out green - audio in purple - out to mid boost ctrl brown - in from mid boost ground
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Post by sumgai on Nov 7, 2015 19:05:46 GMT -5
rabbity, Well, I see where you're tryin' to go, but.... Lemme ask this in a yes-or-no format: Is this "virtual" humbucker pickup really just a combination of the dummy coil with one of the other three? If so, then there's gonna be lotsa tears in bunnyrabit-town. It's easy to spot the following: a) The mid-boost module is always on, whenever a plug is inserted into the jack; b) The module's Audio Input lead is connected permanently to the dummy coil's negative lead; c) The dummy coil's positive lead is connected permanently to the Middle pup's positive lead; d) When S1 is in the "up" position, the Middle pickup's negative lead is grounded. Thus; e) The two coils are now connected in series combination, and when S1 is up, they will be part of the output signal, regardless of where the 5-way might be set. Somehow, I don't think that was your intention, amiright? I'm not trying to bust your chops here, I know you wanna learn, no doubt on that score. So, your assignment, should you choose to accept it, is to start over. Work your way from no connections between a bunch of parts, and figure out, step-by-step, just how to make your Truth Table come into being. IOW, break it down into the simplest possible pieces of the puzzle. That means, leave out the dummy coil or the mid-boost module, they'll come later. (And for purposes of what you want in the end, pretend that this will be a Master Volume/Master Tone control set-up. Unlike most Stratocaster layouts you might find and follow, this will not have the second Tone control.) Next, add the dummy coil to get the so-called 'virtual' humbuckers you seek. Just be advised, you want make sure the dummy coil only comes on when you want it to - don't let it stay in the circuit when it's not wanted/needed. After all that, adding the mid-boost module afterwards will be nearly a piece of cake, trust me. Re-check your work at each step along the way, to make sure that you haven't geficht what you accomplished before. Good luck, and HTH! sumgai
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Post by lookbunnyrabbit on Nov 7, 2015 21:24:17 GMT -5
rabbity, Well, I see where you're tryin' to go, but.... Lemme ask this in a yes-or-no format: Is this "virtual" humbucker pickup really just a combination of the dummy coil with one of the other three? Yup Am I to take it that this one is at an end? Im not adverse to pulling out my crayons again. The reason I ask... If I eliminate the dummy coil, with the mid-boost. It will be too noisy. I could change to lace sensors but It would suck the soul out of the sound.
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Post by newey on Nov 8, 2015 7:39:28 GMT -5
I was going to say pretty much the same as SG was saying, the preamp thing is going to be on all the time.
Without tracing all the wires out (since I can't make out all the connections), just in general, I looked at the S-1 switch as wired in the original AmDlx scheme. It's used up, there's no portion of the S-1 that isn't already used. That means that the Powerhouse circuit can't be switched by the S-1.
Now, maybe you could use the 5-way to switch it in/out along with the mid pickup, but again, I can't tell because the Superswitch isn't decipherable as currently drawn. And, you may not want the Powerhouse always in the circuit anyway, you may want to have the mid pup in the Std Strat scheme to be unboosted.
Based just on the above, it seems to me that the best way to combine the two schemes is to add a switch that would switch the Powerhouse circuit in/out independently. A DPDT switch (which could be a P/P on one of the other pots) would allow you to switch the "hot" lead of the powerhouse, and the other pole would be used to disconnect the battery so that it isn't "on" anytime you've got a cable plugged in (This may cause a bit of a "pop" when the switch is thrown, but there are fixes for that).
But I think the whole thing would be a lot easier to set up if you approached it that way.
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Post by lookbunnyrabbit on Nov 8, 2015 11:41:37 GMT -5
Therein lies the problem. to take the module out, requires another S1. The only issue with that is that you cant. the other two pots are 50 and 25k. The only way I can remove the dummy coil is to go with lace. (cant afford and wont do.) I just found this. It should give you a better view of how its switched out.
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Post by JohnH on Nov 8, 2015 14:23:46 GMT -5
This is an interesting thread. I haven't been able to unpick it enough to think of anything helpful so far.
What I'm seeing is:
series/parallel switching use of dummy coil S1/superswitch wiring use of mid-boost active module
I don't recall seeing all of that on one guitar design anywhere before.
When talking of a virtual humbucker, what is that? Is it two pickups like N and M in series, forming a humcancelling combo? or is it a pickup in series with the dummy coil to get hum cancelling?
The Fender Am deluxe designs using S1 and Superswitch, of which there are about 3 since 2004, all tend to max-out those switches, so there's no poles left to do even more stuff. But we have plenty of designs where we get many versions of series/parallel, using just a 2 pole switch instead of a 4 pole S1 switch. If you reconfigured with one of those, then the rest of the S1 could be used to strategically connect a dummy coil just in settings where it would help such as NB combos. (dummy coil to be added in series, on the ground side probably). See the schematics section, my offerings would be based on Strat SP or SN designs.
I think with that active module, its better to embrace it fully, with its special pots, and just accept that you will have a powerful active output. There may well be an extra benefit too. When people get doubtful about the tone loss due to adding dummy coils, the main culprit is the extra impedance that it adds, combined with cable capacitance to the amp dulling the tone, which is natural but is greater when more coils are in series. The active stage will protect from most of that, so the tone loss of adding the dummy coil may be less than usual.
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Post by lookbunnyrabbit on Nov 8, 2015 15:50:17 GMT -5
John, Thanks for your response (Along with everyone else.) I feel like I need to say thanks because I have dropped one hell of a mess on your collective door steps.
yes(I think). lets take pos 3 S1 down. (Pos 3.---------------Both virtual humbuckers in parallel) to me that would indicate that its using all 4 to create 2 humbuckers at once. but what confuses me is that Pos 2 S1 down shows (Pos 2.---------------Neck in Parallel with Bridge) but wouldn't that also mean that its still making a connection to that dummy coil?
That makes some sense to me. I have to admit though that I feel a bit like a ship tossed about on the ocean. I know I am punching way above my weight class on this one.
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Post by lookbunnyrabbit on Nov 8, 2015 17:54:20 GMT -5
Broke out my crayons again! It seems like progress in reverse but I get it. Here is what I know so far.
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Post by sumgai on Nov 9, 2015 0:28:07 GMT -5
rabbit, OK, there's your collection of parts I was talking about. Now, fill in the lines representing wires that will let the 5-way lever/blade switch select pickups, just like a normal Strat would select them. Got that? Good. Easy, wasn't it. But unfortunately, no matter where you put them, at least a few wires will have to come back up, and be repositioned. Why, you ask? Because now you're gonna do the S1 thing. Oh, you say you already did that in the first step? Why - I didn't mention anything about the S1, did I? I distinctly said "like a normal Strat", amiright? So. Now's the time to figure out how to make the S1 switch give you your desired combos. But...! At this point, you don't wanna mess around with the dummy coil, got that? You just want to make the pickup selections, we'll worry about putting the dummy coil in place in the next step. Unwrap some more crayons, and get to gettin'! When you've posted your results for this first step, we'll help you insert the dummy coil so that it works only on those pup selections you want. And on another note: When talking of a virtual humbucker, what is that? Is it two pickups like N and M in series, forming a humcancelling combo? or is it a pickup in series with the dummy coil to get hum cancelling? yes(I think). lets take pos 3 S1 down. (Pos 3.---------------Both virtual humbuckers in parallel) to me that would indicate that its using all 4 to create 2 humbuckers at once. Nope, ain't gonna be happenin' that way. Think - no matter whether in series or parallel, when we combine NWNP with RWRP, then humbucking ensues, period. Given that, if we turn on all three pickups, as espoused above, then we have a very nice, chimey sound, or tone. There will be no humbucking action between the Middle and Bridge pups, neither one of them is RWRP in comparison to the other. Moreover, even if one was RWRP, think - they're not very close together at all, are they. In fact, you'd get the infamous quack sound, wouldn't you? But as luck would have it, combing the Bridge and Neck pups, which normally result in a somewhat Telecaster sound (and is actually closer to a Jazzmaster or Jaguar in tone), is enhanced by adding the Middle pup - be it NWNP or RWRP. It's a very desirable tonality for some stuff, particularly early surf, but it's not gonna win any prizes in the humbucking department, I can guarantee you that. The only humbucking on this (proposed) guitar is gonna come from the dummy coil, and at that point, it's only gonna knock down the hum level by 1/3 or so, if all three pickups are on at the same time. (And again, no matter what's in parallel or in series.) In the same manner, adding the dummy coil to any two selected pups will reduce the hum level by only 1/2, not the full amount one might hope for. Sorry to be bursting any bubbles, but that's the way the Mojo works. HTH sumgai
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Post by ashcatlt on Nov 9, 2015 13:49:42 GMT -5
I've been watching this thread, but I've been at work, so I haven't been able to put together enough minutes in a row to even try to help. I don't see the OP as all that complicated. I don't really understand why it's taken this many posts, and I'm completely confused about where we are now?
When did we decide we need to switch the Powerhouse in and out? Why are we re-wiring the Superswitch? Are we no longer happy with the original S1 wiring? WTF is going on around here?
To accomplish the request in the OP, we start with the S1 scheme in whole.
Replace the red wire from the 5way to the V pot with the dummy coil.
Move that purplish wire that goes from the switch to the T pot so that it connects to where that red wire went on the V instead of the switch.
Yank out the other T pot and toss it aside. Jam the boost pot in that hole and wire it to the PH module and the jack tip exactly as shown.
The "hot" wire (in blue going from V to jack on the S1) now goes to yellow on PH.
Green wire from the PH goes to the same place as brown. The fact that brown is labeled "...ground" raises a flag, but this is what happens when the V pot in the PH scheme is turned all the way up, and we're wiring it to be "all the way up" permanently, so...
I think we're done now. S1 switching, dummy coil "virtual humbucker", Master V and T, active boost, RLC "mid boost" tone control. Wanna try to draw that?
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Post by lookbunnyrabbit on Nov 9, 2015 18:05:09 GMT -5
Ash, Im so confused by your post I am not sure where to start. Ill try to explain my confusion to each one. {caveat} Im not trying to be a Richard, I genuinely dont get most of this. Replace the red wire from the 5way to the V pot with the dummy coil. That I think I get. using the dummy coil as that red wire?Move that purplish wire that goes from the switch to the T pot so that it connects to where that red wire went on the V instead of the switch. The only purple wire is one of the two wires connecting to the boost pot. If you mean the dark blue wire, are you telling me to also connect that where the dummy coil is connected at the vol pot?Yank out the other T pot and toss it aside. Jam the boost pot in that hole and wire it to the PH module and the jack tip exactly as shown. The pot is already in there and wired. The guitar is already wired with the stock powerhouse wiring diagram.The "hot" wire (in blue going from V to jack on the S1) now goes to yellow on PH. There is no blue wire going from vol to the S1?? The yellow on the PH is audio out. Why am I connecting the hot to audio out?Green wire from the PH goes to the same place as brown. Green is audio in. If we move it to the brown, it has no incoming signal. The fact that brown is labeled "...ground" raises a flag, but this is what happens when the V pot in the PH scheme is turned all the way up, and we're wiring it to be "all the way up" permanently, so... Why if we are wiring in a boost pot would we want to wire it all the way up?
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Post by ashcatlt on Nov 10, 2015 14:23:34 GMT -5
All good questions. Replace the red wire from the 5way to the V pot with the dummy coil. That I think I get. using the dummy coil as that red wire?Yes. You can use wires to connect it if it's leads don't reach. Edit - Except WAIT!!! We're talking about the red wire on the S1 diagram! Do not put the dummy coil in place of the wire to the battery clip! I started with the S1 picture. That, I think, is the basic issue with many of these questions. At this point we shouldn't even be looking at the PH wiring at all. I suppose I should have gone the other way, since that's what's in the guitar, but for putting together a drawing it shouldn't matter either way. My instructions are on how to draw it, not how to build it. There's a purple line from the 5 way to the top T pot. We want that pot connected the V pot where the dummy coil is now going as you surmised. Yep, that's part of the confusion... The thing about tossing and jamming was kind of metaphorical. We're still talking about drawing, not building. See, cause I again was looking at the S1 picture, where there is quite clearly a light blue wire going from the wiper of the V to the jack tip. That needs to go to the audio input in the PH. This now is the first time we're actually looking at the PH diagram at all, and looking at that diagram that you posted originally it just plain can't work if yellow is audio out. The only connection from the pickups to the module is via that yellow wire. So, either the diagram or the list you posted is wrong. And that I think answers the next question, too. Again, the diagram can't work that way. You should figure out which is correct, and then translate my instructions to fit. In fact, it won't hurt anything just to find out the "hard way". Just wire it up one way, if it doesn't work, swap the yellow and green from the PH and go on with life. Don't confuse the Volume pot with the weird mid boost thing. We're taking the V pot out of its position between the preamp and the mid boost whatever, so we replace it with straight wire to the mid boost whatever.
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Post by JohnH on Nov 10, 2015 14:27:08 GMT -5
Sorry his is taking a long time.
Going back to the first post, where you post two diagrams that you are merging together.
The Powerhouse drawing, with the active module and dummy coil. Is that what you actually have now on the guitar?
The other drawing with the S1 and superswitch, is that your design? or have you built it? or where does it come from?
cheers
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Post by lookbunnyrabbit on Nov 10, 2015 14:41:08 GMT -5
I dont mind. Gotta start somewhere. Every time we go threw this I learn a little more.
The powerhouse is what I have wired to the guitar.
The other diagram was given to me by David Allen and I wired it to my other strat. (works)
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Post by JohnH on Nov 10, 2015 15:04:29 GMT -5
I dont mind. Gotta start somewhere. Every time we go threw this I learn a little more. The powerhouse is what I have wired to the guitar. The other diagram was given to me by David Allen and I wired it to my other strat. (works) Ok thanks, I should have asked that before! The Powerhouse design seems to always feed the signal consistently through the dummy coil to get to the module. That suggests that the pickups are all the same polarity ie no rwrp M pickup. That is the simplest way of using a dummy coil. You could check that with a compass or another small magnet. All pickups would attract/ repel the same. If that's the case, where does it leave your new project? Are you going to build this into the powerhouse Strat with its current pickups? Or if it is a new build, is it with an RWRP M pickup as normal? If this scheme is going into the Powerhouse Strat then I think the intent is ok and adapting Dave A's diagram it will be along the lines of what ashcatlt is describing. We could work with that. The dummy will be expected to work well in single and parallel settings and partially in series settings. (IE similar hum to one single, but louder output so better signal to hum ratio in series mode) If it if with a normal RWRP strat set though, then id suggest lose the dummy coil and we can splice the module onto Dave A's diagram.
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Post by lookbunnyrabbit on Nov 10, 2015 15:14:06 GMT -5
The Powerhouse design seems to always feed the signal consistently through the dummy coil to get to the module. That suggests that the pickups are all the same polarity ie no rwrp M pickup. That is the simplest way of using a dummy coil. You could check that with a compass or another small magnet. All pickups would attract/ repel the same.
They are. it uses 3 am strat pickups (north) and one tele pickup with only the two most outer pole pieces. (RWRP)
If that's the case, where does it leaveyour new project? Are you going to build this into the powerhouse Strat with its current pickups? Or if it is a new build, is it with an RWRP M pickup as normal?
The current pickups. They sound good in the Powerhouse circuit. All the stock positions go from being bone stock sounding to almost a humbucker thickness. I also really enjoy the S1 downs that DAllen hooked me up with. I was trying to make a Reeses.
If this scheme is going into the Powerhouse Strat then I think the intent is ok and it will be along the lines of what ashcatlt is describing. We could work with that. The dummy will be expected to work well in single and parallel settings and partially in series settings. (IE similar hum to one single, but louder output so better signal to hum ratio in serie mode)
If it if with a normal RWRP strat set though, then id suggest lose the dummy coil and we can splice the module onto Dave A's diagram.
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Post by JohnH on Nov 12, 2015 14:30:03 GMT -5
I think we can do this by splicing these two parts... this post to be edited later...
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Post by ashcatlt on Nov 12, 2015 14:43:39 GMT -5
JohnH, that'll give you redundant Volumes and no "normal" Tone.
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Post by sumgai on Nov 12, 2015 14:53:50 GMT -5
.... plus, where's the dummy coil? Leaving that out won't give the desired combos in S1-down/5-way Positions 3 and 4.
Or were you planning on bringing that to the party in a later post (did I jump the gun here)?
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Post by JohnH on Nov 12, 2015 15:02:02 GMT -5
JohnH, that'll give you redundant Volumes and no "normal" Tone. I wasn't done explaining yet! On the Dave Allen diagram, I moved the connection from superswitch to pot and freed up that pot, so it is ready to be converted to become the new passive tone pot, adding a tone cap. The dummy coil should be added between the red wire (which I moved) and the tone pot. Output from the dummy coil/tone pot goes to the power module (yellow wire, which I extended in orange) Ground everything that needs grounding. Bunnyrabbit, maybe you can go from there? Or, I can splice them together at the weekend. My thought is, work with these part diagrams first, even though they may not be beautiful as a result (like Frankensteins monster), because we know that they both come from designs that work. Tben, when its all hooked up, use the result as a reference to redraw it if you want to.
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Post by lookbunnyrabbit on Nov 12, 2015 21:10:56 GMT -5
Sharpening up my crayons again! I will get on this tonight and see if I can put it all together. I'd rather try myself as Ill learn more from doing it. John, If I cant get it by this weekend then I shall defer to you for a fix. I cant believe how helpful and supportive everyone has been. A big thank you to everyone for your help and not just laughing at my idea. Heres what I have so far. I am not sure I got what you were saying about where the yellow from the mid-boost goes.
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Post by JohnH on Nov 13, 2015 22:35:08 GMT -5
Heres what I have so far. I am not sure I got what you were saying about where the yellow from the mid-boost goes. Sometimes its hard to explain stuff by Friday.. ,,so here is a mashed up lash up! I think it will do the same functionality as Dave Allens diagram, assuming its th eFender pickup set with all the same polarities, and the dummy coil is always in circuit either getting mostly rid of the hum, or at least halving it. I showed wiring of the S1 pot to make it a tone control, putting the tone cap on the ground side. Then the Power module stage has its usual volume and mid boost knobs. Theres just one annoyance I see, maybe. The Fender diagram uses a no-load tone pot, to keep the most high frequencies when you need them. You would now be using whatever is on your S1 switch-pot, which may well be 250k. Its not a huge deal unless you are struggling for extra high treble.
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