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Post by ashcatlt on Jan 19, 2016 12:30:08 GMT -5
Right about the time ProBoards instigated Version 5, believe it or don't. Been awhile now, to be sure. I suspected, but I guess I haven't looked for it before now. I kind of hate almost everything about this new version. Like that for example. Just...why? Yeah, that's a way to link to specific posts, but not a great way to reference them in conversation because readers would have to follow the same process to figure out which post I'm talking about. There used to just be an ordinal number in the threads. I could say "In reply #8" and you'd know what I was talking about. I guess I don't remember if deleting posts in between used to break that.
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Post by sumgai on Jan 20, 2016 3:00:13 GMT -5
.... I could say "In reply #8" and you'd know what I was talking about. I guess I don't remember if deleting posts in between used to break that. Don't feel bad, I don't recall that particular detail either!
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Post by lookbunnyrabbit on Jan 20, 2016 13:55:36 GMT -5
Reading on the dummy coil is 6.18
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Post by lookbunnyrabbit on Jan 20, 2016 14:12:19 GMT -5
I'm not sure what you're calling a mid boost or a boost pot or whatever. Im just going by what Fender calls it. Mid-boost. The boost pot is the one with the purple and brown wires running to it. Its only purpose is to gate the amount of mid-boost added to the circuit. In this diagram The red from the vol middle lug is attached to the boost pot. What I am trying to figure out is where is it really suppose to connect?
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Post by ashcatlt on Jan 20, 2016 15:40:42 GMT -5
Im just going by what Fender calls it. Mid-boost. The boost pot is the one with the purple and brown wires running to it. Oh. Fender. So, "Boost" like "Tremolo" and "Vibrato". At least we both know what we're talking about. Best I can tell, that's where it's supposed to go. The V pot might impact the action of that filter, but I can't say for sure how without a whole lot of math or a bit of simulation. You could try putting the "boost pot" before the V pot, but I think that messes things up even worse. Grab your meter and set it to read DC resistance. Attach one probe to a convenient "ground" point. I'd pick the jack sleeve myself, but whatever works. Attach the other probe to the lug on the 5-way where the dummy coil connects. In your link, that would be where the yellow and red wires are, the third lug from the bottom on the left side. Record and report the readings in each position of the 5-way with S1 in each position, and post the results here in some table or something.
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Post by lookbunnyrabbit on Jan 20, 2016 16:20:36 GMT -5
Will do. Thanks!
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Post by ashcatlt on Jan 20, 2016 16:32:21 GMT -5
In anticipation of your results, I've been trying to calculate the theoretical values based on your pickup measurements. In doing so, I find myself having trouble understanding the truth table.
Specifically: "Pos 3.---------------Both virtual humbuckers in parallel" which is described elsewhere as: "(Neck in series with Middle) in parallel with (Middle in series Bridge)" which is even more WTF.
How are they both in series with the Middle, but those constructs in parallel with one another? No damn sense whatsoever. The only thing that I can think of that even comes close to working would be (N+B)*M, but trying to trace the wiring while working is making me seasick. I guess we'll just go with that for now. Maybe the actual measurement will clear things up.
Anyway, the fact that these pickups are very close to identical values makes some of the difference between positions really small. I sure hope your meter is high enough impedance that it doesn't affect the readings too much...
It should look something very much like this: N = 6.1 N+M = 3.07 M = 6.17 B+M = 3.05 B = 6.03
N*M = 12.27 N+B = 3.03 (B+N)*M = 9.2 (B*M)+N = 4.07 B*M = 12.2
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Post by lookbunnyrabbit on Jan 20, 2016 16:35:14 GMT -5
S1 Up Pos. 1 - 6.01 (if 1 is neck?) Pos. 2 - 3.07 Pos. 3 - 6.22 Pos. 4 - 3.09 Pos. 5 - 6.14
S1 Down Pos. 1 - 12.31 Pos. 2 - 3.05 Pos. 3 - 9.28 Pos. 4 - 3.86 {EDITcleaner bite on the probe. now reads 4.08} Pos. 5 - 12.37
My meter is my Fluke 8026B handheld I have the bench as well but the handheld should be sufficient.
I see what you mean about the middle pos.
I also found out that David Allen didnt make this diagram, it was made by someone called Hermetico Guitars (Probably spelled incorrectly)
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Post by lookbunnyrabbit on Jan 20, 2016 17:06:54 GMT -5
Now I'm glad that you made me grab those DC resistances before I wired it. What JohnH drew up looks correct to the Powerhouse Diagram. It also shows that Red wire connecting to the Boost pot (bottom tone control) my Mole Steak
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Post by ashcatlt on Jan 20, 2016 20:14:15 GMT -5
Your individual pickup readings are different from what you posted earlier in the thread, and I didn't re-run the calculations, but I honestly think it all looks about exactly right. I'd call that switching part done. IDK what was happening to make you believe it was wrong, but I've found that just tapping pickups to determine which are on or off is not really a great way to sort it out. The numbers don't lie.
I really think the only thing left to do is try wiring the dummy coil in opposite of what you originally did, and see if the noise gets better or worse.
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Post by lookbunnyrabbit on Jan 20, 2016 21:43:22 GMT -5
Yeah, the numbers are off because I used a cheap pocket meter to take the original numbers. (was in a hurry). I will try reversing the dummy coil. might take a bit as I have to solder new leads to the dummy coil to make the reach.
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Post by lookbunnyrabbit on Jan 20, 2016 22:01:16 GMT -5
Made the noise much worse. switched it back.
Here is what I know about the noise. When it was wired as just a powerhouse strat, it had no noise. My other guitar which is wired by the other diagram, also has no noise. When the S1 is depressed the noise doubles. When I turn the boost pot up, the noise lessens but is still sounds like your touching the tip of the cable to the amp (a little lower in volume)
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Post by ashcatlt on Jan 21, 2016 12:31:53 GMT -5
Made the noise much worse. switched it back. Well, now we know. False. No guitar in the world has no noise. Maybe it had a lot less, but maybe you have the amp turned up further. Heck, you've got an active boost stage there. That alone will amplify the noise to levels greater than you remember. The only thing that really matters is signal-to-noise ratio. If the strings are also louder by at least as much as the noise is louder... That kind of freaks me out. It doesn't matter what position the 5-way is in, the noise is always louder with S1 down? The "boost" pot is actually cutting treble, and probably also so low-mids/bass, and the noise goes with it. Does it more or less do what you'd expect tone-wise though? The thing about touching the tip of the cable might be a clue. Does the noise change if you touch the jack tip or ground lugs? What about if you touch the wire going into the active section from the T pot? What about if you touch the ground connection on the T pot? Double check that you haven't reversed the wires at the output jack. Double check that the jack sleeve has a 0Ω connection to all the other ground points. Measure all those readings again this time with the probe on the other side of the dummy coil - where it connects to the pot. Disconnect the wire from the T pot to the active module and first just make sure it's not touching anything - including you. Is the noise better, worse? What about if you touch that wire to a ground point? What if you touch it with your finger? Now disconnect the wire that's currently on the jack tip and run a wire from the T pot (where that active module should be connected) to it instead. How does that change things? When you touch hot things? When you touch ground? That sounds like a lot of messing around, but it shouldn't take all that long. Somewhere along the line we'll at least narrow down the issue.
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Post by lookbunnyrabbit on Jan 22, 2016 17:03:46 GMT -5
Made the noise much worse. switched it back. Well, now we know. That kind of freaks me out. It doesn't matter what position the 5-way is in, the noise is always louder with S1 down? POS 1,3 and 5 noise, Pos 2 noise at about a quarter of the vol. POS 4, 3/4s of the noise. All still noisier than the up positionThe "boost" pot is actually cutting treble, and probably also so low-mids/bass, and the noise goes with it. Does it more or less do what you'd expect tone-wise though? cant tell its just a body and pickguard at the moment. I wire with the neck off so I can spin everything around as I wire. (Only metal is the jack plate and straplocks, no bridge.)
The thing about touching the tip of the cable might be a clue. Does the noise change if you touch the jack tip or ground lugs? What about if you touch the wire going into the active section from the T pot? What about if you touch the ground connection on the T pot? Same noise but a bit louder before the tone cap and no change if I touch it after the tone cap.
Double check that you haven't reversed the wires at the output jack. Double check that the jack sleeve has a 0Ω connection to all the other ground points. Checked. All is wired correct at the jack. (With the lugs facing me.) Middle lug is ground and copper foil. Right is hot and left is ground switch for mid-boost.
Measure all those readings again this time with the probe on the other side of the dummy coil - where it connects to the pot. Read with dummy coil wire removed from the middle lug on the tone/S1 S1 UPpos. 1 - 12.30 pos. 2 - 9.30 pos. 3 - 12.42 pos. 4 - 9.31 pos. 5 - 12.34
S1 Down pos. 1 - 18.47 pos. 2 - 9.29 pos. 3 - 15.46 pos. 4 - 10.30 pos. 5 - 18.53
With the dummy coil disconnected at the middle lug on the tone/S1 the noise goes away. With it also disconnected if you touch that middle lug the noise is back. Also if you touch the boost pot where the red wire connects you get noise as well.
Disconnect the wire from the T pot to the active module and first just make sure it's not touching anything - including you. Is the noise better, worse? What about if you touch that wire to a ground point? What if you touch it with your finger? With the connection to the tone from the mid-boost disconnected I get almost no noise. If you get your finger within a 1/2 inch of the jacket of the yellow wire, it starts to hum. If you touch it with your bare finger on the tip of the wire, its the same as touching the tip of the amps cable. When touched to a ground it sounds as if it just shorts the mid-boost module out. (No noise at all)Now disconnect the wire that's currently on the jack tip and run a wire from the T pot (where that active module should be connected) to it instead. How does that change things? When you touch hot things? When you touch ground? Still about the same amount of noise. a little deeper tone. Touching ground or hot makes no changes to it.That sounds like a lot of messing around, but it shouldn't take all that long. Somewhere along the line we'll at least narrow down the issue.
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Post by ashcatlt on Jan 22, 2016 18:03:01 GMT -5
Yeah, so you're not going to like this, but all of that sounds to me like everything is wired correctly and working as expected. The noise is coming from the pickups, and as long as you're confident in all of your grounds, I'm not sure there's much to do be done. It may get better when you close it up so that the shield is actually shielding. I'm not completely sure that the dummy coil is doing you any favors. Did we try to remove it and replace it with straight wire from the switch to the T pot?
Beyond that, I think it might be time to put it together - being very careful not to cause any accidental shorts to the shield foil etc - and string it and play it. That will at least give us a real perspective on how bad the problem is in relation to the actual string sound.
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Post by lookbunnyrabbit on Jan 23, 2016 17:29:06 GMT -5
Well crap! Im not willing to give up on this so I am going to keep plugging away at this until I find an answer. Ill start using shielded cable on the in and out lines from the module. then go back and desolder everything and make sure I didnt over heat a pot.
I want to thank this site and in particular JohnH for figuring out how it all fits together. And ashcatlt for all his help diagnosing the problem and in turn teaching me the correct way to trouble shoot a design. Also much thanks to newey and sumgai as well. I have learned much threw the process of this design. I think I want to try more complex designs in the future. At the moment I am going back over the basics again. (a much needed refresher)
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