Nighthawk HSH redux

[ubertech]

Hi Guys

A while ago you helped me put together a superswitched HSH series/parallel/split/phase scheme for my epi nighthawk.

At the time you reckoned I would find some of the positions redundant - and hey guess what...

I am reviewing the beast and altering it to a simplified series/split/phase on tone and vol push/pulls and Im thinking of using the redundant multi-position switch as a varitone filter circuit:  

So far I have just done the basic circuit - but I would appreciate it if you can look it over and check the signal paths




hopefully it checks out ok - thanks in advance UT

[sumgai]

ut,


The first problem I see is that when you go for the 'coil split'* position, you immediately kill all tonal output for 5-way positions 2, 3, and 4. This is because you've grounded the remaining in-circuit coils on one end, and when you try to hook up something in both series and parallel at the same time, that's when the tears start to flow.


Additionally, your phase switch looks overly complicated to me. Exactly what your trying to accomplish? My guess being, you want to have the reversing switch affect different pickups, am I correct? If so, please expand your Truth Table to show exactly which pickup is 'phase reversed' for each of the 5-way positions.


HTH





sumgai

* Technically speaking, you aren't 'tapping' the coils, you are splitting them. It's a common misnomer amongst guitarists, so we know what you mean, but keep this in mind whenever you need to make a distinction, because there are ways to tap a coil, though it's not common in the guitar world (nor in the bass world, come to that).

[JohnH]

OK, I get it. It's ubertech's last project which was this:



which was based on the SSS Strat SP, converted to HSH with e rotary selector.
So I see you are not having any parallel combos in this version?

Sumgai, the phase switch is a bit different to usual, because it can reverse the phase on any pair, BN, BM or NM

For coil cuts in a series circuit, just shunt between the two ends of the coils you want to cut out, rather than shunting to ground. Or better, shunt to a position on the phase switch so that you always get a humcancelling pair in or out of phase.

[sumgai]

John,


Your explaination confirms my guess. However, I was asking which pickup of any given pairing might be the one to have its leads swapped. I can follow the diagram, but that doesn't mean that what I see (and interpret) is what ubertech is expecting. Now, given the (alleged) success of a former edition of this circuit, I'm not so sure that I need to delve into an analysis so deeply.


ubertech,

John's got the correct solution for you. Think of it like this: if you're gonna short a coil to remove it from the signal path, you should just short it directly. The easiest way to remember to do that is simply run both of the coil-to-be-shorted's leads over to the appropriate coil-split switch terminals, then make your connections as needed to the rest of the circuit.


HTH







sumgai

[ubertech]

Hi Guys

It will take me some time to unpack what you have said and amend the signal routing to suit

JohnH is right I am attempting to adapt the previous arrangement (which works well) and gives local series, parallel and split, a main superswitch pickup selector, with phase (oop and soop I believe depending on the various switch positions), and system series/parallel. The system works really well, but after using it for a while I find there are some positions I like more than others:

• The single coil sounds are a revelation and neck/mid and neck/bridge are great, having never owned a strat/tele these opened my ears.
  
• The local Parallel is useful when Im near noisy electrics, but it didnt quite have the thin-ness of the split coil, so I was (reluctantly) happy to lose it for a simpler arrangement.
• I don't tend to use local series that much to be honest, but was aiming to keep them to make a more distinct change from the split coil than the parallel.
• The system series/parallel was not used as much as the rotary (local) selector - so I think I did not appreciate the point of it as much.

So from this testing, the resultant theory was to simplify with:-

• keep the superswitch selections unchanged, though I would like to get in the middle only if there is some way
• Local split and series combos with a push pull
• Phase I cant do with out now Ive got it, so that is the second keeper - again push/pull.
• incorporate a kind of Lucile capacitor base tonal selector on the redundant rotary switch, which I think would be useful

The only thing JohnH got wrong was the version of the diagram I was basing this new scheme on - which had a system parallel/series switch in it (I believe this is he he explained it before). It is this switch that I adapted for the split version and I think I may have gone wrong at that point. This is the original scheme:



basically I tried to take the original system series/parallel switch out of the circuit (SW2) connecting leads from the phase switch to where I saw their outputs going. I also moved the phase switch to the volume for convenience. And then I added in a split switch as a modular...or at least I thought I did. 

I will go back the drawing board and think of what you have said. The thing is I understand how the superswitch works for pickup selection, but it hasnt quite sunk in yet how it is connecting in the overall scheme - a bit of an oversight and bodge on my part!

speak soon...UT

[ubertech]

ok Ive had time to look at this now - not sure what i was thinking with the previous coil split switch (SW2) 

Ive looked over what you have said and I figured I am looking for some way of connecting red+white to green for each humbucker

I think the simplest solution to this would be to connect the 'hot' side of the coil split switch to pole C of the switch 1 (my labelling) as it would be a common connection to the greens of both neck and bridge

Am I thinking about this correctly?

[newey]

Am I thinking about this correctly?

Nope, sorry. Your "series junctions" (i.e., the red and white wires) for each HB connect to the "C" common lug on the Superswitch, when placed in SC mode. This, in turn, connects the series junction to the green wire of the HB, or to the middle - at position 3. To get single coil operation, the series junctions need to be either grounded, or connected to the hot output. To get hum-cancelling, you'd wire one series junction to the ground, and the other pickup's junction to the hot output. This would then give opposite coils on the HBs for hum-cancelling when both pickups are in SC mode.

[ubertech]

HI All


Sadly it's nearly a year since I looked at this but I still haven't cracked it

I think my lack of basic knowledge is stopping from seeing how newey's solution would look on the ground:

Nope, sorry. Your "series junctions" (i.e., the red and white wires) for each HB connect to the "C" common lug on the Superswitch, when placed in SC mode. This, in turn, connects the series junction to the green wire of the HB, or to the middle - at position 3. To get single coil operation, the series junctions need to be either grounded, or connected to the hot output. To get hum-cancelling, you'd wire one series junction to the ground, and the other pickup's junction to the hot output. This would then give opposite coils on the HBs for hum-cancelling when both pickups are in SC mode.

Is this what newey describes re: hum-cancelling?




Thanks for any help, Ubertech

[JohnH]

Welcome back. I think there are other problems to fix first, like in positions 1 and 5 I'm not seeing any pickups going to ground. I suggest start with the previous project with the rotary switch, and just delete the rotary switch keeping everything else the same but with full humbuckers. Lets see that first. Then we can discuss adding the coil cuts.

To do the coil cut switch that you want, please colour the middle pickup so that its magnetic polarity matches the convention suggested by the red and blue colours of the humbuckers. This will mean deciding which way round the coils will be in position (or which way round they are), and comparing coils face to face or with a compass to check which attract.

Out of the three in-phase combination settings, you should be able to get 2 hum cancelling when in coil cut mode and the other will be humcancelling when out of phase. You can chose which it will be based on which humbucker coils are selected (it needs a north and a south when in phase). I don't think it will be possible to get everything humcancelling to the extent that was possible with the rotary switch.

A further consideration is if your pickups are uncovered, I would pick the slug coils as singles since they may be a bit more powerful. So if you have slug and screw coils, you could identify which they are on the next diagram.

[ubertech]

As ever thanks

firstly removing the rotary gives (I presume ) full humbucker mode system series/parallel & phase - may be useful to someone




hopefully this is correct to start with?


What would system series vs parallel sound like? On my previous scheme one position was slightly fatter in the middle and louder than the other, but I wasn't sure which of the two was parallel/series - I preferred the fatter sound 

[ubertech]

regarding the coil cuts - i need to do a little checking with a compass to ensure the coils are correct.

can you clarify for me:

 please colour the middle pickup so that its magnetic polarity matches the convention suggested by the red and blue colours of the humbuckers. This will mean deciding which way round the coils will be in position (or which way round they are), and comparing coils face to face or with a compass to check which attract.

• I presume that blue coils on the humbuckers represent south coils - is this correct?
  
• If this is the case, how do I represent that polarity with the single coil wires?

Out of the three in-phase combination settings, you should be able to get 2 hum cancelling when in coil cut mode and the other will be humcancelling when out of phase. You can chose which it will be based on which humbucker coils are selected (it needs a north and a south when in phase).

• I would normally have this opposite to the other humbuckers when split so they hum cancel in 2 & 4, though as this would not be possible with this wiring then 2 (N+M) would be the one for me to be hum cancelling when in phase, and M+B humcancelling out of phase

A further consideration is if your pickups are uncovered, I would pick the slug coils as singles since they may be a bit more powerful. So if you have slug and screw coils, you could identify which they are on the next diagram.

• Is there a convention for denoting which is the slug coil, or is it just a case of knowing whether it is the north or south and then writing it on the diagram?
• a point of note is the nighthawk has a mini humbucker (covered) in the neck, and in my case a slanted rail humbucker in the bridge - will these have slug/screw coils still?

Thanks for the ongoing help

[JohnH]

On the diagram, the pairs of spare ends get joined together. The colours are based on Seymour Duncan in which case the free ends from the red coloured pickups would be white.

Also i think you dont want the series parallel switch? So that should be removed and wires connected appropriately.

Red and blue indicate different polarity by the compass. It doesnt really matter which. But you need to work out and be very sure of the relative polarity of the coils and exactly which wire colour goes where for what you have. Colour M to be consistent.

[ubertech]

ok I started by removing the series switch out of the circuit as you say:




Then I had a go at the coil taps, while trying to consider hum cancelling in various positions - either Im right or Im way off. Basically Ive tried to coil tap each humbucker before they go to the superswitch (SW1). The phase switch has been left alone as best I can - the diagram seems a little cluttered, but please have a look and critique as needed - maybe wiring would be reduced if the phase switch came in after the coil tap but before the main switch (SW1)?

[JohnH]

Might need to pause a moment. I just noticed what you wrote about the system/series parallel switch in your 2nd ti previous post. The louder fatter one that you prefered would be system series. Is that the one you want to keep? Nearly all standard guitars without system series/parallel switch use parallel for combining pickups.

But based on your last diagrams, I assume that the M pu is the same magnetic polarity as the bridge-side coils of both the humbuckers (ie all red), and that the Seymour Duncan wire colours are correct and have been confirmed to be connected to tbe coils as shown.

[ubertech]

Might need to pause a moment. I just noticed what you wrote about the system/series parallel switch in your 2nd ti previous post. The louder fatter one that you prefered would be system series. Is that the one you want to keep? Nearly all standard guitars without system series/parallel switch use parallel for combining pickups.

I did consider that. Seemingly, I do prefer the system series sound, especially for the neck mini humbucker tapped in position 2. However for simplicities sake, and because I don't really understand how to create the system series at this point, I thought I would drop it from the current intended scheme. I think if I get the parallel system working, I will try to create a series alternative, but for now parallel it is...

But based on your last diagrams, I assume that the M pu is the same magnetic polarity as the bridge-side coils of both the humbuckers (ie all red), and that the Seymour Duncan wire colours are correct and have been confirmed to be connected to tbe coils as shown.

I will have to check this, as I got a bit excited and forgot to get my compass out, but in theory yes they are coloured correctly.

Assuming that the coils and wires are labelled correctly, am I along the right lines? I don't really understand the blue ground wire connected to Switch 1 and the pots. Could you explain what's happening in the circuit

One further issue - Im not sure which coil to reverse phase, as I like that zepplin/green HB phase sound, but would that mean in coil cut mode there would only be phase reverse in position 2 and 3? I think I know the answer

Thanks as ever

[newey]

JohnH (and ubertech)-

I think there are some issues with this diagram. I have not fully traced out all the permutations, but I see an issue with the middle pup wiring at position 4. With the phase switch "down" (meaning connected to the green, "positive" output, the middle pickup is connected to hot through the phase switch, and grounded via the blue wire. With the phase switch pulled up, the middle seems to be connected in series with the neck pickup- not what is indicated on the table. Not sure if it's in or out of phase with the neck in that configuration, but I'm not seeing M + N.

[ubertech]

Thanks Newey.

I'll be honest - Im struggling a little. 

I can see what you mean about the series issue, as I don't think I fully removed the series circuit properly. 

Ive revised the diagram for straightforward parallel. PU to phase(N) to mainswitch to vol & tone. Coilcut is by earthing the r/w wires - ??

I know there may be a problem with this version as when the phase is reversed  the coilcutfor the neck only reverses one PU

Have I gone the wrong way?

Attachments:

[newey]

You're almost there. Two issues: First, you have the HBs wired opposite from each other- at the neck, the red coil goes to the "hot" side and the blue coil is to hot at the bridge. This results in the two being out of phase with the phase switch (the p/p) down and in-phase with the p/p pulled up. Ordinarily, you would want in-phase with the knob pushed in as the 'default" setting.

The various pickup switch settings look fine.

The only othe rissue is whether you have maximized hum-cancellation with the coils cut. If the mid pup is "red", you can have hum-cancellation in positions 2 and 4 by having the coil-cut switch operate so as to give you 2 blue coils. But if you want position 3, N + B, to be hum-cancelling, then you can have either position 2 be hum-cancelling or position 4, but not both. As shown, because you wired the HBs opposite as discussed above, you will have hum-cancelling at position 3, but only when the two are out of phase. Because both HBs show black wires (instead of SD colors, black and green), I can't tell which coil will be hum-cancelling with the middle.

So, you should first decide which positions you would like to have as hum-cancelling, then we can plan the coil-cuts accordingly. But as a starting point, you should redo the diagram using green and black, and wire the 2 HBS the same way- black to "hot" for both, green to ground. That way, your phase switch will operate as one would expect, and we can choose coils at the coil cut switch depending on which way you want to go.

[JohnH]

This diagram started life based on one of mine, which was the Strat SP. One of the ideas there was that by only ever needing one or two pickups, never al three, then the phase switch can always be applied to one of the pickups selected rather than one fixed pickup, so whichever pair you have can always be phased. Might as well keep that in this version, since there is enough switch poles to do it, and it is an unusual and interesting feature. Ill have a go, so let me see if that will work out....

[sumgai]

The thing that struck me about the most recent iteration is that being all in parallel, there's no need to be switching any of the pickups' ground leads.  Counting the Neck pup's phase switch, all of the pickup grounds can be sent directly and permanently to ground, thus eliminating the need for a super-switch (and the attendant expense).  A more simple (and less space-hogging) "half super switch" will do the job just fine.

For those who are new to this particular article, it has one deck instead of two, but like its big brother, the single deck has two poles that each have 5 separate terminals (plus the Common terminal).

Until we start introducing Nutz-o switching options, this would be the most simple (and least costly) way to go.

IMHO, o' course.

sumgai

[JohnH]

Oct 1, 2016 21:09:13 GMT -5 sumgai said:

The thing that struck me about the most recent iteration is that being all in parallel, there's no need to be switching any of the pickups' ground leads.  Counting the Neck pup's phase switch, all of the pickup grounds can be sent directly and permanently to ground, thus eliminating the need for a super-switch (and the attendant expense).  A more simple (and less space-hogging) "half super switch" will do the job just fine.

For those who are new to this particular item, it has one deck instead of two, but like its big brother, the single deck has two poles that each have 5 separate terminals (6, when you include the Common terminal).

Until we start introducing Nutz-o switching options, this would be the most simple (and least costly) way to go.

IMHO, o' course.

sumgai

I was thinking in that. I reckon the opportunity with the more complex 4 pole superswitch in this HSH build is that in coil cut mode, by picking the right coils,every combo of 2 pickups can be hum cancelling, in and out of phase. Worth the effort unless getting the switch is a problem.

[newey]

. I reckon the opportunity with the more complex 4 pole superswitch in this HSH build is that in coil cut mode, by picking the right coils,every combo of 2 pickups can be hum cancelling, in and out of phase. Worth the effort unless getting the switch is a problem.

I had not thought of that, but yes. Question is, did ubertech already buy a switch?

[ubertech]

I would love it to be hum cancelling in every position!

Ive already got the superswitch, in the existing scheme and I have a fresh spare too

I reckon the opportunity with the more complex 4 pole superswitch in this HSH build is that in coil cut mode, by picking the right coils,every combo of 2 pickups can be hum cancelling, in and out of phase. Worth the effort unless getting the switch is a problem.

brilliant - but how???


as a side point, I am ploughing the parallel furrow as I think it would be a great 'standard' scheme - but out of interest, is it relatively easy to move the wiring across to system series once parallel is developed  - you know as two alternative 'standard' HSH builds ?? Im just wondering how different the schemes would look

[JohnH]

I have a back-of-envelope sketched pencil schematic now, and I think it will all work.

So, the special features will be, phase change in all combo settings
Humcancelling in all coil cut combo settings, in or out of phase.

Of course, if you mix a full humbucker with M then it can't be hum-cancelling, but the hum is a bit 'diluted'

Id like to develop the wiring so it potentially can have all three switches: phase, coil cut and series/parallel. If it was mine, I'd want to find room that one extra switch. But there can also be hard-wired parallel-only and series-only options, and with a bit of care, the wiring can be arranged so that you can make an easy swap with moving two wires internally. (series, join them together, parallel take them to hot and ground)

[reTrEaD]

Oct 2, 2016 16:33:39 GMT -5 ubertech said:

brilliant - but how???

In a system-parallel only arrangement, it would be quite easy.

Maintaining hum-canceling when a HB is put out of phase is very easy if the coil-cut switch is properly nested into the phase switch wiring. The coil split is "after" the phase switch, not before.

One way to make sure hum-canceling would occur would be to stack one of the HBs differently when it's used with the middle than it is with the other HB. Two of the previously unneeded poles of the superswitch could be assigned to the (-) wires of each coil of one HB.

In a system-parallel or a system series/parallel architecture, one would need to be more efficient and clever I think. Let's see what John has in store for us.

EDIT:

After allowing this puzzle to rattle around in my hollow little head, I thought of something clever, although it might not be the same something John is onto. The two HBs could be stacked differently. One with the screw coil on top, the other with the slug coil on top. No pickups have any wires connected to ground. The two extra poles are connected to ground. When selecting both HBs, the coil split will naturally select coils that are of opposite magnetic polarity. When selecting the middle and one HB, we will naturally have coils of opposite magnetic polarity . When selecting the middle and the other HBs we select them both out of phase (they are still in phase with each other). This causes the coils split to naturally select the HB coil that is of the opposite magnetic polarity of the middle.

[ubertech]

wow! things are really moving on here, and Im on the edge of my seat!

John H -

I think I would find room for an extra switch to move between parallel on series; I used it on a 3 pick up Jazzmaster that follows one of your strat schemes and it is great. Im getting a little ahead here, but your scheme you are tinkering on seems to have nailed what I am after - and I would think for many HSH owners it would be the logical approach to SSS/HH - very exciting!!



Recall back to the first post.... from the original scheme you helped put together for me, I was trying to free up the local series/parallel/coilcut rotary switch. The options were amazing but I found I was only really using three of the 'system' switches: Coilcut, system series/parallel, and phase. So the Original intention was to slim down the options and replace the rotary with a "lucille" style tone fiilter.

At this point there are two options:

- Forget the Lucille, and instead use the rotary as a 2 position series/parallel switch (I know! but I have the switch and I love chickenhead knobs!)

- Keep the Lucille idea (if it is indeed possible) and introduce an additional micro switch for system series/parallel as JohnH suggests - so the system would be kinda simplified in switching options, but at the same time expanded with a huge range of tonal variations available (this is a recording guitar btw). 


Im drawn to the second option as I love the tonal filtering on the Lucille and Blueshawk - but would it be useful or overkill?

[JohnH]

The rotary varitone switch is a key feature of Blueshawks and Nighthawks isnt it? Id be inclined to keep it so long as it has an off position, or can be fed through the tone pot.

Is yours including an inductor or just capacitors?

The series/parallel switch is anything with the basic 6 lugs. Ive used slider switches, push/pulls, mini-toggles or, my favorite, a sub miniature toggle. The diagram is the same for any of them.

I have a first pass at the diagram but its easy to go wrong. I dont want to post it until Im sure. Hoping that reTrEaD will be interested in reviewing it in due course. It might take a few more days.

[ubertech]

I want to keep the varitone (thanks!) circuit, but mine didnt come with one - it was one of the first edition epi nighthawks from way back. They had a five way, vol and tone, whereas the Gibson nighthawks had the real deal.

I put the circuit at the start of this thread - it has a 1.5henry inductor in it - I thought that might be an incorrect value (just due to lack of availability really so I thought it odd)

An extra module would be to add this in to the tone circuit, the first position would be off (bypass) for the varitone



please I would appreciate you having a look at the circuit to see if it is correct (sourced somewhere on the internet, source long lost) - and please, if you are feeling inclined, draw up how it would look as a wiring diagram onto the tone circuit I think it would be worth adding to the module section here on the site

[JohnH]

Ok well here is my offering, for review:



The way it works is similar in principle to the SS and HSS versions of the SP. The key thing is that the 5 way uses its four poles to select two coils or pickups out of the three. The left and right sides do coils 1 and 2 respectively, and the top of the 5-way does the 'hot' side and the lower part the 'cold' side.

Then, now that we are down to just two pickups, they are presented to the other switches for series/parallel, split and phase options.

The varitone circuit could be wired in to replace the tone cap.

Relative coil polarity is important for humcancelling, and so since M has been identified as a south coil, B and N usually split to a north coil. But for the N and B combos, B gets cut to a south coil. This is done by flipping the polarity of both N and B and grounding the B series junction to its cold side (hence changing which coil is selected to south) but N always splits to the same north coil. The same principle usually looks after hum cancelling in Oop combos. There was one setting I couldn't quite fix for optimum hum cancelling, which is out of phase coil split N and M. Everything else is humcancelling if such is possible.

In positions 1 and 5 only one pickup is selected, and it goes in the 'coil1' position. 'Coil2' is not active, but the ground side of coil2 is used to make sure coil1 gets a ground, in case the series switch is also activated in which case it would otherwise not get a ground.

A small extra, if you select Bridge with split, operating the phase switch will change which bridge coil is provided.

That is all presumptuously assuming it's all right, which is subject to checking....

cheers
John

[reTrEaD]

John, I haven't completed an every-combination-of-switch-positions verification but at least I've wrapped my mind over the basic architecture. It starts in a different direction than I anticipated so it has a different set of 'reversals' to achieve the same goals.

'Coil1' is the 'top' of the stack when in series and that's where all the action is. Whatever is selected by the left side of the 5-way is routed through the phase switch.

The Neck split is direct. When the split switch is engaged, the Neck's series link is connected to the Neck South (-). Neck south is shunted. Neck North remains present.

The Bridge split is accomplished *after* the phase switch. Therefore, which Bridge coil is shunted, depends on the position of the phase switch and how the Bridge is selected by the left side of the 5-way.

The purple wire from the S/P switch provides the necessary connection to 'Cold' in positions 1 & 5 of the 5-way, when the S/P switch is in series mode. Since there is no 'Coil2' in those positions, 'Coil1' would have no path to system Cold without this connection.

The Middle is relegated to 'Coil2' and nothing remarkable happens there.

In position 3 of the 5-way, the HBs are both out-of-phase so they're in-phase relative to each other.

I expect to complete my vetting of this within a day or two.