Wiring conundrum

[firebottles]

hello, I would like to find a remedy for my '72 Tele Custom re-issue. The neck position wide range humbucker is too bassy for my taste.
I currently have the guitar open as I am re-wiring it to be non interactive with regard to volumes.
At this point I would like to address the bassiness of the HB. It was equipped with .022 caps and 250K pots. I am curious about changing the cap to filter out more bass... what value might be worth a try?
I intend to cut the pickguard so I can make changes to the wiring while the guitar is strung and I can test things out as I go. Also.. I have visited my local electrical supplier for advice and I don't know what voltage rating I need to get in a cap. Are some materials better than others for this application... ie ceramic, mica etc Thanks!

[Mini-Strat_Maine]

firebottles said:

I have visited my local electrical supplier for advice and I don't know what voltage rating I need to get in a cap. Are some materials better than others for this application... ie ceramic, mica etc

"Film," AKA metalized film, AKA film-and-foil caps: polystyrene, polyester, etc. And since the voltage inside a guitar is so low, the 100 VDC/70 VAC variety should be fine. (Some may have a lower rating; I'm looking at the Vishay-Sprague Type 225P "Orange Drops.")
The exception to this would be the one used as a hedge against electrical shock, the 0.33 400 VDC one. (Can't find the link to that page right now.)

For changing tone, a .033 or .047 (".05") microfarad cap might help "darken" your tone some.

[UnklMickey]

welcome aboard Firebottles!


the normal configuration of a tone control in a guitar is a treble-cut. so having the tone control at 10, you mostly are hearing the full range of the pickup, and at 0, the capacitor capacitor cuts the treble.

to cut bass, you would need to create a non-standard type of tone circuit.

you might replace the cap with an inductor.

or you could put a pot and cap in parallel with each other, and put them in series with the pickup. (this probably would be the easier choice).

i don't have any information as to whether or not this has been done before. it might be totally experimental. i will tell you that the resistance of the pot will probably be much less than the 250k or 500k used in the treble cut. you could still use that value to experiment with, but you will just be using a small portion of the travel on the knob. the cap will likely be a higher than normal value. somewhere around .1 uF would seem (i'm just guessing here) to be a reasonable place to start.

the higher the value cap you use, the lower the frequency of the midrange that will still be allowed to pass when you turn down the bass.

there is another thead on capacitor types, so i won't repeat all that here. key points: don't use electrolytics. ceramics will work, but are not on the preferred list. mostly all other types are.

voltages in guitars are less than a volt, so i doubt you will ever find a cap with too low of a voltage rating.


hope that gets you off to a good start. we like to debate different approaches to things here and this is a whole new topic as far as i know. i'm sure over time other members will add other ideas.

[Mike Richardson]

I'll second that. I used to use 820pF with a Hot Rails, so I'd guess about 1000pF to 1500pF to start with.

[firebottles]

I really appreciate all of the input!!!!!!!

As for the "hedge against electric shock" ... where would that .33 400VDC cap go? I have been curious in the past about adding a fuse of sorts because I play through a vintage 1952 amp.

[firebottles]

ahha I found the info on the other guitarnuts site. I can see I'll be doing shielding, grounding today.

[Mini-Strat_Maine]

firebottles said:

ahha I found the info on the other guitarnuts site. I can see I'll be doing shielding, grounding today.

Have fun!
Sorry for my confusion in my first reply. Dunno how I got from your "too bassy" to cap values that would "darken" the tone. Brain cramp, I guess. The other guys got you pointed in the right direction.
Lotsa good info on that GuitarNuts site. Good luck with your project.

[wolf]

Welcome to Firebottles !!!

Well, since this is GuitarNuts have you considered how the humbucker is wired?
Are there 4 wires coming out of it? If so, you are really lucky and you can wire it for series/parallel operation.
In my opinion, humbuckers (especially in the neck position) are rather muddy and the option to wire it in parallel gives it a much cleaner tone. AND if you can switch it back to series, you can get a higher output sufficient to push your amp into a nice overdriven sound.

[firebottles]

Yeah muddy is a pretty good description of how it sounds... to me it is a sound that might be good for linear jazz playing. But I guess I am more interested in jangle and chime (ala Rickenbackers.. though I selected the Tele because I prefer the feel/weight since I am mainly a bassist) and figured tone could be worked out.
Anyway, on the back of the HB there are four solder points:

A B
C D

Looking at the HB from the back, A/C is one PU B/D the other.
The three wire cable is wired as follows:

[Black(hot?) to D]
[Brown(eventually grounded with bare wire to tone pot body)wired to A
[C wired to B]
[bare to HB body]

I would be very interested in different ways to wire it. This 72 Tele Custom has two vols and two tone controls, so I was thinking of ditching the three way toggle to replace with something to select different HB options. Ideas?

[wolf]

Yes, rather than use a lever switch, I prefer more options too.
Is the bridge pickup also a humbucker?
Also, what is the manufacturer of the pickups?

[firebottles]

The bridge is a single coil. I like the tone.. but I look forward to getting the shielding done as it was a bit noisy. As for the manufacturer of the HB.. I am not sure except that it is the stock HB from the factory. I got the guitar new a few months ago.
Here is a link to the Fender site's wiring diagram.. though the wiring on mine is now disassembled.. but it shows how the HB P'up is still wired.
www.fender.com/support/diagrams/pdfs/72TELE_CUSTOM_RW_MN/SD0137500APg2.pdf

[UnklMickey]

firebottles said:

Yeah muddy is a pretty good description of how it sounds...

.... But I guess I am more interested in jangle and chime (ala Rickenbackers..

wolf made a truly valuable suggestion to you.

rather than focus on the original thought of changing the tone control. he brought up the possiblity of changing the wiring configuration through switching. to keep the original, and add variations that are more in line with your wants and needs.

there are a number of switching arrangements on the boards here that could possibly be useful to you.

i personally like the sound of a tele with a hb at the bridge.

i don't think of it as being muddy, but rather as being "rounder".

in conjunction with the bridge pup, it really is a useful choice. but of course, the more choices the better.


doing series to parallel switching at the neck will give you a choice between that "round" sound, and the "jangle" you wish to add.

using just one or the other of the 2 coils in the hb would give you another different sound. alone it would be "hummier" (okay it's a crummy word to coin). but if the correct one is used with the bridge, the combination become hum cancelling.

to throw another possiblity into this confusion, you might consider also doing a series / parallel switching between the neck and bridge.


what you chose to do is shaped by your needs for simplicity, the number of volume controls (more than one means more complications to the switching arrangements) and how much you are willing to change the stock appearance.

if you were to have 2 mini toggles to do series / ac / bd /parallel for the HB,

and 2 more for the series / neck / bridge /parallel,

plus 1 more for the phase of one of the two pups,

that would bring the total to 5.


that might be a bit more complicated than you want to go, but it does provide a ton of possibilities.

another way to go would be to replace the 3-way with a 5-way.

gives you a maximum of 5 sounds, but looks very stock.


what kind of priorities do you have for stock appearance, simplicity, number of sounds, etc?




unk

[firebottles]

I am not concerned about stock appearance. The end result I would like to see for this guitar is:

1. pickups wired with separate vol and tone controls.

2. remove three way pickup selector toggle.. and replace with selector for options from the neck HB.

I am lucky in that this guitar has lots of room in the control cavity... very deep and wide as it already accomodates four pots... and I have a router to open up the toggle cavity which is a bit tight for a rotary selector.

[UnklMickey]

so are you thinking:

• a 5-way lever action rotary,
  
  
• a true rotary of ? positions,
  
  
• mini-toggles?
  

will the above also be responsible for N, N+B, B ?

[firebottles]

Here's a picture of the guitar

www.fender.com/products/search.php?partno=0137502306

It should be easy to just replace the Les Paul style toggle at the top of the body to a switch (probably a true rotary unless I go with just a selector to make the HB into single coil) that gives some tonal choices from the neck HB.

I don't need a toggle to select pickups..For I've played Ricks for so many years , I am used to using just the two vol and two tones as a "mini on board mixer"... sure the Ricks have the same three way toggle but I never use it.

I don't mind changing the look... but to me it woud be quite simple to wire the HB selection to that upper opening in the pickguard. I may need to route out that cavity though.

[UnklMickey]

firebottles said:

Here's a picture of the guitar....

well that says a ton.

my brain was in the traditional tele-lever switch mode.

a rotary makes sense on this guitar as a "mode switch" for the HB. using the round hole left vacant from the 3 - way

if you're happy with using your volume controls as a "mixer", i'll bet JohnH already has a diagram for a rotary switch for the HB. i just found a thread with a link to one of JohnH's designs.

you should be able to use the right half only, drop the blend pot and all the switches except sw3, and of course turn the volume control around.



check with JohnH of course, in case he has made some refinements since.

____________________________________________________________________________________

EDIT:

johnh said:

Hi - only just tuned into this thread, to see my diagram looking at me! ...

looking at my post in this thread, i realized i originally did a poor job of giving JohnH his props here.

the drawing below is not my work. it was designed and drawn by a fellow member -- JohnH

it originally appeared in reply #70 of the tone monster wiring diagram thread, a collaborative effort of JohnH and Runewalker. it is an extremely long thread that, in itself, is a valuable read for anyone interested in seeing an idea unfold, go through various permutations and finally come to fruition.

guitarnuts2.proboards45.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=wiring&thread=1117172128&page=5

_________________________________________________________________________

[firebottles]

That may be just what I need! Thanks!
Yes I'd be interested to hear what John has to say about it... any suggestions on a five way rotary selector anyone? Any make in particular? Ease of wiring etc?

[Mini-Strat_Maine]

firebottles said:

any suggestions on a five way rotary selector anyone? Any make in particular? Ease of wiring etc?

I think these 5-way rotaries are by CTS; could be CRL or OakGrigsby (now both part of Electroswitch): guitarelectronics.zoovy.com/product/SWR51
You may find them at different prices from other vendors, but I've had pretty good luck with GuitarElectronics so far.
As for ease of wiring one, see what John Atchley had to say, on his page about the T-Riffic mod:

[JohnH]

Hi - only just tuned into this thread, to see my diagram looking at me!
The switches you need for that design were researched and found by Runewalker, at Mouser. To get 5 ways, you need a two layer switch, and if you go to the original thread (the Tonemonster thread, link to follow), you can see my wiring diagram. The trick is to be very careful with pup wires, the diagram is based on Jackson coulours. Heres the wiring:


heres the thread link:
guitarnuts2.proboards45.com/index.cgi?board=wiring&action=display&thread=1117172128&page=6

cheers

John

[firebottles]

This looks like the answer for me.. thanks!
I'll let you know how it goes.