Post by bosox5150 on Sept 19, 2016 23:01:54 GMT -5
I am embarking on another project which I'm seeking info on. First off, I would like to thank John H. & Newie for help on my last project some time ago in which I was seeking to do things I would never do now! As absurd as what I was wanting to do was, you guys helped me greatly and stuck with it until completed so thank you.
This round I simply want to replace my stock pups from my DBZ Venom 2 which I cannot find info on. There is a push/pull on the volume pot with I believe a coil split (although DBZ calls it a coil tap). My issue is I cut out controls before I realized there wasn't any info out there on the pups color codes. I would like to have someone analyze the current wiring and help me understand what it is doing. If the color codes are the same as Seymour OR Dean color codes then that would mean the north start/finish are soldered together on the center tabs of the push/pull pot as opposed to the north finish/south finish found on typical Seymour coil splits. I mention the "dean" color code likeness because DBZ is Dean's new company and to me it seems likely the color codes are the same, but this is a guess. So can anyone look at this drawing and tell me what is "likely" going on here and how to wire my new JB/Jazz combo in the same manner? I know I could just use a Seymour diagram (if I could find 1 using the volume pot for pp instead of the tone) but first I'm wondering why this is so different from other diagrams I find. Is there anything revolutionary about this wiring? Even if black/white is not a coil pair and it is green/white and black/red (like fender) it is still quite different wiring than I see. So what gives? I guess I could do the polarity type phase test as John H. had me do on my other project but unfortunately I already dis-mantled everything and dropped in the JB/Jazz pups. Any help would be appreciated.
DBZ STOCK WIRING
Last Edit: Sept 19, 2016 23:08:02 GMT -5 by bosox5150
Sorry, but I had to move this thread, as it didn't belong in the "design modules" section.
There is nothing particularly unusual about the diagram. The push/pull does indeed act so as to cut both HBs to single-coil operation. The only thing a bit unusual is the tone control being wired off the 3-way switch instead of being "daisy-chained" off the volume, but functionally the two ways are identical.
It appears that the wiring colors are the same as DiMarzio pickups. I say "appears" because, without testing, there is no way to know whether the north and south coils correspond to DMs. The black/white cannot be a coil pair or the pickup wouldn't work if the two are soldered together.
So, if you just want to wire it according to the diagram with the new pickups and you don't care which coil is being split, then you just need to translate the wire colors. If the new pups are Seymour Duncans, as you indicate, then the red wire as shown on the diagram will be the black on the new pups, the green wire will still be the ground, and the red/white pair goes to the switch instead of the black/white.
However, this set-up will not be hum-cancelling when the coil split is engaged, since you are selecting the same coil from both pickups. If you want it to be hum-cancelling, then one of the two HBs will need to be wired "inside out". For SD pickups, that would be white to hot (i.e., to the 3-way switch, where the red is shown on the diagram), green/black to the switch, red to ground.
Note that we still haven't specified which coil is north or south or which is the slug coil vs. screw coil. If it matters which coil is being split, then we'd need to be more specific as to which coil was wired one way versus the other.
Also note that the P/P pot can be wired as either a tone or volume pot (assuming the values for both pots are the same, which they probably are). The wiring to the pot itself is completely separate from the wiring to the switch.
"Coil tap" is incorrect terminology in this case. There is such a thing as tapping a coil, but here we're splitting the two coils of a HB into single coil. But the term "coil tap" is often used when splitting is what's actually happening. There's not much confusion as to the usage because actual coil taps are rarely used these days
There is a push/pull on the volume pot with I believe a coil split (although DBZ calls it a coil tap).
The purists among us will reserve the term 'tap' only for cases where a partial winding of a coil or coils are being used. But there are many manufacturers who say 'tap' when it's actually splitting from both coils of a HB to just one coil.
What was the case on your Venom? Hard to say for sure. We KNOW that 'tapping' both coils of one HB requires both poles of a DPDT switch. So if your Venom only has one standard push-pull, it could 'tap' only one of the two pickups. Or it could 'split' both pickups. Do you recall if the push-pull affected both pickups? If you selected just the bridge, did the push-pull have an effect? If you selected just the neck, did the push-pull have an effect?
So can anyone look at this drawing and tell me what is "likely" going on here and how to wire my new JB/Jazz combo in the same manner? I know I could just use a Seymour diagram (if I could find 1 using the volume pot for pp instead of the tone) but first I'm wondering why this is so different from other diagrams I find. Is there anything revolutionary about this wiring? Even if black/white is not a coil pair and it is green/white and black/red (like fender) it is still quite different wiring than I see. So what gives?
As Newey mentioned, the color codes seem appropriate to DiMarzio although it doesn't provide hum-canceling when both neck and bridge are selected with the pickups split.
The wiring in your attachment won't do anything useful with Seymour Duncan color codes. Only the screw coils of the HBs will be in operation, regardless of the position of the push-pull.
The slug coils (black to white) will be shorted at all times. Floating if the push-pull is down, connected to ground if the push-pull is up.
1 - You can use that diagram as a starting point, if you change the colors on the pickup wires.
2 - If you want to take advantage of hum-cancelling when the HBs are split and both pickups are engaged, select the screw coil from one pickup and the slug coil from the other pickup to remain active when the push-pull is up.
3 - If you choose to use the slug coil from the bridge when split, connect the black wire to the selector switch, connect the red and white together on the push-pull and connect the green to ground.
4 - If you choose to use the screw coil from the neck when split, connect the red wire to the selector switch, the green and black together on the push-pull, and the white wire to ground.
The reason I suggest the slug coil on the bridge pickup is because of the traditional orientation of HB pickups. In most cases, they are oriented with the screw coil of the bridge pickup closest to the bridge and the screw coil of the neck pickup closest to the neck. Using the slug coil of the bridge pickup (a little farther from the bridge) will sound less brittle.
Last Edit: Sept 20, 2016 12:28:17 GMT -5 by reTrEaD
Ah, yes, the 2007 Daytona 500 finish. They tore up a lot of innocent sheet metal . . .Restrictor plate racing is to actual motorsport as WWE wrestling is to Olympic Greco-Roman style wrestling. But don't get me started.
Bosox, your diagram looks fine, if I'm correct in assuming that the light grey wire on the diagram represents the white pickup wires, and that the darker grey wires represent the bare-wire chassis shield wires. Good job with the diagram, and no worries about the mis-posting- my forum maintenance duties aren't particularly taxing and it's been a quiet summer.
Post by bosox5150 on Sept 20, 2016 23:04:41 GMT -5
Thanks Newey & you are correct with the dark grey/light grey assumption. White wire colors didn't work so well on a white background! Thanks reTrEaD for your help as well. I couldn't have done it without both your help. Not without my axe being apart all week anyway.
After I complete the physicality’s of the design I would like to re-visit the original "stock" wiring diagram to decipher exactly what DBZ was doing. I will determine north/south coils and color codes using the "screwdriver pull off test" I learned from John H. back in 2013 when I was configuring my SILLY "ALL ON" h-s-h design. It’s funny how when I had been playing only a short time I was seeking things I'm opposed to now! My chops may not have improved much but me ears have! Unfortunately I have not mingled in wiring too much since then so a lot of what I learned is buried in my cache somewhere so I'll have to defrag to find the files! I do believe the original wiring affected both pups with the pp but only on the pup that was selected at the time. Also I agree having all the prudent info before squeezing the cutters is best. In my own defense I did construct the "stock" diagram 1st & had planned to hook it up the same way. It wasn't until I began connecting the Seymours that it dawned on me color codes where probably different. Like I said I hadn't really messed with wiring since my last project in 2013 so I was a bit fuzzy! Thanks again, I will return with definitive color codes to decipher that stock diagram if you guys are interested in helping more. It's just for knowledge base and the fact that it's kinda bugging me!
Oh one last question, I used copper foil tape and covered the body under my pickups to help with noise when in split coil mode. Is this at all beneficial for these pups and this wiring scheme?
Last Edit: Sept 20, 2016 23:09:32 GMT -5 by bosox5150
I do believe the original wiring affected both pups with the pp but only on the pup that was selected at the time.
Yes, and both pups when the 3-way was centered, correct?
RT's quizzing of you earlier about what the P/P did was to assure that this was, in fact, not a coil tap situation, since that's what the manufacturer was calling it (erroneously, as we pointed out). Rt was being thorough. But it was always long odds that this was a true coil tap. I've never seen a coil tap connection on a HB, only on single coils, and those were mostly on 50's vintage pickups. Of course, there are boutique pickup builders who will make whatever someone desires, and whenever we say that something doesn't exist in the world of guitar stuff, we're usually wrong.
By all means, post your results if you do the testing. I see that our wire color reference guide does not list Dean or DBZ, so it will be useful info for those who may come along in the future.
Oh one last question, I used copper foil tape and covered the body under my pickups to help with noise when in split coil mode. Is this at all beneficial for these pups and this wiring scheme?
Since the majority of your combinations are hum-cancelling already (except when set to one HB and it's split), it's probably not a big issue. But it won't hurt to do so. However, the shielding has to be grounded to be effective. The grounding can be via a wire to the grounding point, or as is more usually done, via contact with the body of the pots, switches, etc which are themselves grounded.
I'm sorry but it was pretty obvious from the OP that it was a normal coil split for both HBs and the colors were just different. There's no real mystery. Whether or not it split to a humcancelling pair is a question. It is completely possible that one is actually RWRP. The quickest way to tell would be to try to push them together. If like coils attract...then we can probably assume that they're also wound backwards, cause you'd have noticed if they were OoP.
I've always dissaproved of the term "inside out". If you actually just take the inside wires and move them to the outside, then all you're doing is reversing the polarity of both coils. What we actually want to do is re-stack the coils while maintaining polarity. It does have the effect that all the "inside" wires are now "outside", but it's different. I guess as long as everybody knows what we're talking about, we can call it whatever we want. :/
Last Edit: Sept 21, 2016 12:13:39 GMT -5 by ashcatlt
Yes, we can call it whatever we want, and I like the term "restacking the coils" a whole lot better. Wolf called it "inside-out" (at least that's the first place I saw that term used) and I have sort of glommed onto it over the years.
But, from now on, I'll switch and hopefully "restacking" will take hold.
Words do matter, and terminology matters. If manufacturers didn't use "coil tap" inappropriately, we wouldn't have had this whole discussion in the first place. So, we here can at least try to write precisely, even if the rest of the world doesn't follow suit.
But, ash, you're right in the sense that there was never much question what was going on. As I said, I've not seen a coil-tapped HB, and I'd be very surprised to see DBZ stock pickups having a coil tap, since halving the output doesn't sound like the hot set-up for metal-ish shredding.
Post by bosox5150 on Sept 21, 2016 21:06:50 GMT -5
Ok impatience got the best of me and I did the tests. Things went great until I got to the bridge pickup & things got strange, more on that in a few.
First off, a non related question. How do you guys respond to certain parts of a post in nice little boxes around the particular question’s or comment’s you’re responding to? Sorry for my ignorance but I don’t do a lot of posting.
Newey, I believe you are dead on with both pups being in single coil mode when the selector was centered or whatever mode the pot pulled up was creating.
ashcatlt, the pups oppose each other screw coils to screw coils & when flipped slug to screw they attract.
Now for my tests connected to audacity & the weirdness that arouse. This was the screwdriver pull off test described here guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/4938/testing-phase-screwdriver-pull-test. The neck coil checked out fine as I was able to determine red/black were slug coil (top coil as pup logos would be oriented but actually they have covers no slugs). When I took the red lead to the tip of my jack the phases went negative, when I put black to tip the phases went positive. Green/white where screw coil & green to tip phases went +. So I know the colors but what the + - phases mean, I’m clueless!
Things were not so obvious for the bridge coil. It was clear the white/green were again screw coil & green was the + phase but when I went to the red/black leads I not only got a much lower db response level on the slug coil but it also responded about the same level on the screw coil. This has me confused! Black to tip produced the + phase but the level of response was identical on the screw coil?? So I re-checked my colors and confirmed white/green where the screw coil & I tested to see if I got any response on the slug coil using white/green, dead silence. The kind I wished my x-wife produced!
I have attached some pics to show you guys what I saw. What could be going on? Could it be smoked?
Last Edit: Sept 21, 2016 21:27:47 GMT -5 by bosox5150
HBs are more difficult to measure with this technique, as tapping on one coil can induce a current in the other, given their proximity. I doubt that there is any problem, but you can do a quick check of the DC resistance of each of the four coils. If one was indeed "smoked", as you say, you should se a significant difference in resistance.
Your measurements seem to indicate what we thought all along- the DBZ colors correspond to DiMarzio colors. We still don't know which is "north" vs. "south", but as we have debated here before, that designation may vary from mfr. to mfr. anyway.
1) It kinda does look like there might be something wrong with that one coil. Definitely measure DC resistance through each of the coils, though if you're just going to discard the thing, maybe doesn't matter...
B) Absolute polarity doesn't much matter as long as it's the same for all four coils.
III) The fact that like coils repel I think tells us it would not have been humcancelling when split. Kind of a strange oversight on the part of the manufacturer, but who whatever. I definitely would go ahead and split to cancelling pairs on the pups rather than trying to keep it the same.
4) When you hit the Quote button next to a post, it brings up the reply box and populates it with the contents of that post wrapped between Quote tags. You can edit that all you want, and if you wish to break it up into smaller chunks and add your own text in between, you have to add your own tags. Frankly, you could just hit the quote button on a post that does what you want and see all of the code that made it happen, but in this case it would read something like [quote] Something somebody wrote that you want to respond to[/quote] Your response [quote]The next point you want to respond to[/quote] Your next response... Etc I strongly encourage you to figure that out. I personally don't love when people quote an entire long post just to reply to a small part, and it especially annoys me when somebody quotes a post that has quoted another post that quotes another post and we end up with the whole damn thread in every post.
Last Edit: Sept 22, 2016 11:12:33 GMT -5 by ashcatlt
Ashcatlt's method is fine for longer quotes, but if you only want to quote a small portion of something, I find it easier to click at the beginning of the quote, drag to highlight what you want, then hit the "quote" button in the "create post" box. It's a yellow buttton that says "quote" next to the smilie button. This then just quotes what you have highlighted, not the entire previous post.
Of course, that means using a mouse or touchpad to drag across the text, so if you're using a smartphone or tablet, ashcatlt's method may be easier.
Post by bosox5150 on Sept 22, 2016 17:30:47 GMT -5
though if you're just going to discard the thing, maybe doesn't matter...
It really doesn't matter but I will keep them to put back in if I sell the guitar. They actually sounded pretty decent for stock pups, not high gain but a good crunch for classic rock type stuff i.e. steppenwolf, cream, hendrix etc.
I will go with the design per the last diagram. About the tone control. Newey said "The only thing a bit unusual is the tone control wired off the 3-way switch instead of "daisy-chained" off the volume, but functionally the two ways are identical." I would have to say that over the many guitars I've owned I always noticed the tone controls varied in ways. Some hardly made a difference in cutting highs while others seemed to cut a lot while causing a "muddy" sound. For some reason I loved this tone control, it cuts the highs all the way through the turn of the knob without causing a "muddy" sound. I know factors like pot resistance & linear vs audio taper will effect the results but could wiring make the difference? Whats your opinions on best tone knob practices?
Last Edit: Sept 22, 2016 17:35:46 GMT -5 by bosox5150
Our opinions about tone controls are varied, Pot values, linear vs audio taper all have an effect, but you didn't mention the cap value, which is more likely to be the cause of "muddy" tone.
The taper affects where along the rotation you would hear the "muddiness", but doesn't cause any muddiness itself. Pot values are in play even when at "10" (unless they are "no-load" types), so any affect on tone by pot value is a constant. It's mostly the capacitor value that determines the shape of the frequency curve.
How tone controls are wired into the circuit is a whole 'nother topic. See JohnH's post on "modern vs. '50s" wiring" in Les Pauls, as well as his detailed tutorial in the tone section.
As far as this particular wiring is concerned, the way they show it, wired off of the common lug of the 3-way, is electrically equivalent to wiring first to the volume control and then to the tone ("Daisy-chained", so to speak). There won't be a difference in tone between the two methods, as the resulting circuit is the same either way.