Suhr ML Standard, Analysis and Review

[antigua]

www.suhr.com/suhr-guitar-pickups/ml-pickups/







I just pulled this set out of a guitar in order to give the GFS Boston Blues set a shot.

My subjective opinion as to how these sound is that they reminded me pretty thoroughly of Fat 50's or Lollar Blackfaces, the range of Strat pickup that trades away "glass, chime, spank" in favor of "prominent midrange, clear treble and a full bass that has a defined piano like attack". I stole those phrases from Lollar's website because they contain a lot of adjectives that my ears agree with. Most Strat pickups wound to a 6.5K DC resistance with 42 AWG seem to follow this trend, but there is a few that don't.

The pole pieces are full charged AlNiCo 5 with a "modern" stagger. The coil is wound very evenly, and is simultaneously very fat, coming right to the edge of the bobbin.


Suhr ML Standard Bridge
DC R: 7.11K
L: 3.122 H
Q: 2.624
Peak: 9.60 kHz
Calculated C: 68 pF (88-20)
Coil width: 0.588" (even winding distribution)

Suhr ML Standard Middle
DC R: 6.54K
L: 2.841 H
Q: 2.575
Peak: 9.72 kHz
Calculated C: 74 pF (94-20)
Coil width: 0.562" (even winding distribution)

Suhr ML Standard Neck
DC R: 6.52K
L: 2.766 H
Q: 2.520
Peak: 9.90 kHz
Calculated C: 73pF (93-20)
Coil width: 0.582" (even winding distribution)

The resonant peak of the bridge came unusually close to that of the neck and middle, and it's bobbin measured the same thickness as the neck, despite having a higher DC R and a inductance than either the neck or middle. A lower calculated capacitance is the most likely cause. If it's wire of the bridge pickup became thinner during the winding process due to high winding tension, that could explain most of those differences (and similarities) to the neck and middle.

No load, integrated bode plot:




With load (283K R and 540pF C across each pickup:):




Thanks to Ken Willmott kenwillmott.com/ for designing the integrator used for the measurements.

[pablogilberto]

Hi antigua

Thanks for sharing this data.

Few questions...

#1
What do you mean by "modern" stagger. What's the main difference wrt vintage stagger? Do you know the polepiece height sizes?

#2
Since the winding distribution is even, do you think that this is machine wound?

#3
" If it's wire of the bridge pickup became thinner during the winding process due to high winding tension,"
-What do you mean by becoming thinner during the winding process? Do this happen with high winding tension?
I tried winding with a higher tension than my normal (by hand) but I get an increase in capacitance.


Thanks!

[gckelloch]

May 28, 2021 9:37:25 GMT -5 pablogilberto said:

Hi antigua

Thanks for sharing this data.

Few questions...

#1
What do you mean by "modern" stagger. What's the main difference wrt vintage stagger? Do you know the polepiece height sizes?

#2
Since the winding distribution is even, do you think that this is machine wound?

#3
" If it's wire of the bridge pickup became thinner during the winding process due to high winding tension,"
-What do you mean by becoming thinner during the winding process? Do this happen with high winding tension?
I tried winding with a higher tension than my normal (by hand) but I get an increase in capacitance.


Thanks!

#1) Modern stagger means it essentially follows the radius of an average fretboard for better balance with a plain G-string and steel wraps.

#2) They are probably machine wound. Modern auto-winders can be programmed for different patterns and can control tension better than any human hand.

#3) He may have meant that the insulation stretched. It's a common issue with poly wire.

[ms]

May 28, 2021 19:08:59 GMT -5 gckelloch said:

May 28, 2021 9:37:25 GMT -5 pablogilberto said:

Hi antigua

Thanks for sharing this data.

Few questions...

#1
What do you mean by "modern" stagger. What's the main difference wrt vintage stagger? Do you know the polepiece height sizes?

#2
Since the winding distribution is even, do you think that this is machine wound?

#3
" If it's wire of the bridge pickup became thinner during the winding process due to high winding tension,"
-What do you mean by becoming thinner during the winding process? Do this happen with high winding tension?
I tried winding with a higher tension than my normal (by hand) but I get an increase in capacitance.


Thanks!

#1) Modern stagger means it essentially follows the radius of an average fretboard for better balance with a plain G-string and steel wraps.

#2) They are probably machine wound. Modern auto-winders can be programmed for different patterns and can control tension better than any human hand.

#3) He may have meant that the insulation stretched. It's a common issue with poly wire.

My impression of "modern" stagger is that the pole under the G string is lower than implied by the fret board curvature because the plain (not wound) G string used in place of the wrapped one from the past has a larger mass of magnetic material.

I think it is the copper that provides the strength to resist stretching, but when it does stretch (as it must with higher tensions), the insulation must stretch with it.

[gckelloch]

May 29, 2021 5:51:45 GMT -5 ms said:

May 28, 2021 19:08:59 GMT -5 gckelloch said:

#1) Modern stagger means it essentially follows the radius of an average fretboard for better balance with a plain G-string and steel wraps.

#2) They are probably machine wound. Modern auto-winders can be programmed for different patterns and can control tension better than any human hand.

#3) He may have meant that the insulation stretched. It's a common issue with poly wire.

My impression of "modern" stagger is that the pole under the G string is lower than implied by the fret board curvature because the plain (not wound) G string used in place of the wrapped one from the past has a larger mass of magnetic material.

I think it is the copper that provides the strength to resist stretching, but when it does stretch (as it must with higher tensions), the insulation must stretch with it.

Would a wound G in the same gauge set as with a plain G not be slightly thicker (with a thinner core for flexibility) to make up for the mass loss? I think the G pole is generally the same height as the D in a modern stagger, but there likely isn't a consensus on that among pickup makers. I imagine the vintage stagger was not only for the wound G, but to compensate for the relative output loss of the pure Ni wraps (Ni being only paramagnetic). Ni-plated Steel wraps better equalize string output. When I switched from Sfazrzo Nickeanium (Ni wraps) to the same gauge of V-strings (Ni/Fe wraps) on my guitar with flat-pole pickups, there was a marked increase in wound string output, at least for the lower harmonics, requiring a slight lowering of the low E side height. I think Greg Sfarzo had told me they are not wound as tight as the Nickelaniums, so they have weaker higher harmonics.

Consider that the insulation facing outward would stretch around the bobbin ends more than the wire. Some wire deformity may also occur, but the outward-facing insulation would have the most stress and excess pressure on the still malleable stretched portions from consecutive layers also exceeding tension limits. It's nothing short of a full-on capacitive feeding frenzy!

[ms]

May 29, 2021 7:53:00 GMT -5 gckelloch said:

May 29, 2021 5:51:45 GMT -5 ms said:

My impression of "modern" stagger is that the pole under the G string is lower than implied by the fret board curvature because the plain (not wound) G string used in place of the wrapped one from the past has a larger mass of magnetic material.

I think it is the copper that provides the strength to resist stretching, but when it does stretch (as it must with higher tensions), the insulation must stretch with it.

Would a wound G in the same gauge set as with a plain G not be slightly thicker (with a thinner core for flexibility) to make up for the mass loss? I think the G pole is generally the same height as the D in a modern stagger, but there likely isn't a consensus on that among pickup makers. I imagine the vintage stagger was not only for the wound G, but to compensate for the relative output loss of the pure Ni wraps (Ni being only paramagnetic). Ni-plated Steel wraps better equalize string output. When I switched from Sfazrzo Nickeanium (Ni wraps) to the same gauge of V-strings (Ni/Fe wraps) on my guitar with flat-pole pickups, there was a marked increase in wound string output, at least for the lower harmonics, requiring a slight lowering of the low E side height. I think Greg Sfarzo had told me they are not wound as tight as the Nickelaniums, so they have weaker higher harmonics.

Consider that the insulation facing outward would stretch around the bobbin ends more than the wire. Some wire deformity may also occur, but the outward-facing insulation would have the most stress and excess pressure on the still malleable stretched portions from consecutive layers also exceeding tension limits. It's nothing short of a full-on capacitive feeding frenzy!

Stagger is kind of a subjective thing, and different people hear it differently.  I like Kinman's solution (https://kinman.com/magnet_stagger.php),  although I could argue all day with him about other things!

Well, the outward facing insulation on the ends stretches more, but on the other hand the inward facing insulation stretches less.  So I do not know what the net effect is, but perhaps not so much.

[antigua]

One thing I just remembered is that the two end poles, high E and low E, haver stronger magnetic fields than any of the center poles, A D G B, because they have half as many neighboring return paths sharing their space, and yet that's a fact that is ignored when people pontificate about the logic of staggering the pole pieces a certain way. I think the fact that they stagger can be perfectly flat and nobody hears a serious deficiency (and some people even claim it sounds better) suggests that the whole subject is blown out of proportion.