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Post by antigua on Oct 1, 2016 15:01:36 GMT -5
www.dimarzio.com/pickups/humbuckers/humbucker-hell This is a bright humbucker, very similar to a Filter'tron in a number of ways, or perhaps a "hot" Filter'tron. The inductance and resonant peaks are similar, though just slightly "hotter", somewhere between a TV Classic and a TV Classic Plus. The eddy current losses are also similar, though with a cover, the Humbucker from Hell would be even closer. The DiMarzio EJ (Eric Johnson) Custom is also a PAF style humbucker that is specifically supposed to sound like a Filter'tron, so it will be interesting to see how that compares on a technical level, since the Humbucker from Hell is so close already. Some will liken this to a Strat pickup, though not only is it more like a Filter'tron, but both are somewhat brighter than Strat pickups, with loaded peaks close to 5kHz, where as a Strat is more typically close to 4kHz, not to mention that the physical layout between a PAF and a Filter'tron are more alike than either is to a single coil Strat pickup. The Humbucker from Hell has obviously mismatched coils, with the black bobbin being the larger of the two, see the picture below. The "green and white" wires lead to the black coil with the thicker spool, and the fact that it reads a lower DC resistance despite the extra thickness suggests that it's wound with 42 AWG while the cream bobbin (black ad red) is wound with 43 AWG. DiMarzio Humbucker From Hell DP156BC
Series resistance: 5.96k ohms
green & white: 2.507k ohms
black & red: 3.432k ohms
Series inductance: 2.272H
green & white: 0.988H
black & red: 1.029H
Gauss at 3rd and 4th screws: 350-450G, AlNiCo 5
Unloaded: V: 22.4dBV f: 11.5kHz (black)
green & white: V: 20.7dBV f: 14.1kHz (green)
black & red: V: 23.0dBV f: 13.8kHz (gray)
Loaded (200k & 470pF): V: 20.1dBV f: 4.57kHz (red)
Baseline: 18.1dB
Bode Plot Note that the two coils have similar inductance and similar peaks despite one being 42AWG and the other being 43AWG. I have no idea what the utility in this is. This is apparently alluded to in DiMarzio's "dual resonance" patent, though as you can see, the red and black lines each exhibit only a single resonance. You do see a double bump in the green line (black bobbin), but that's unrelated, as this is just one coil, unloaded, being analyzed by itself.  Notice that the coil on the cream bobbin is quite a bit thinner than the coil on the black bobbin: 
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timboland
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Post by timboland on Jun 7, 2019 12:24:21 GMT -5
Hi there,
I hope that someone is reading this and can give me an answer.
(sorry for my English, I'm not a native !)
I installed the HfH in an Tokai Les Paul in the neck position.
(Tone Pots are already out of the circuit, I don't like "Woman Tone"...)
It is more defined and less muddy than an PAFish Hummie, but not as defined
as I would wish, especially at the low strings...
My LCR Meter reads about 2,3 Henry at 200 Hz...
My main question is this: A Single Coil with 2,3 H would be in the lower range, so why is the Hummie with same Inductance
fatter and "woolier" than a Strat SC ?
(I know that the construction of the guitar itself plays another important role, but I formerly installed a real Strat SC in the Neck Slot of
the Les Paul (adapter ring made it possible) and that one sounded more trebly !)
Does the magnet play another important role beside the Inductance, or is this already being reflected into the Inductance ?
Would be great to get an answer, Thanks a lot !
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Post by stratotarts on Jun 7, 2019 15:39:37 GMT -5
My main question is this: A Single Coil with 2,3 H would be in the lower range, so why is the Hummie with same Inductance fatter and "woolier" than a Strat SC ? The most likely difference is the steel poles vs. Alnico poles. The amplitude of the resonant peak is much less with the steel poles (whether slugs or screws). Many people find the ceramic single coils "fatter" or "duller" than the Alnico's for the same reason. That happens because of eddy current losses in the steel parts. Another factor is the well known "aperture effect" that mitigates upper harmonics. <iframe style="position: absolute; width: 34.180000000000064px; height: 3.240000000000009px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none;left: 15px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT2_97047727" scrolling="no" width="34.180000000000064" height="3.240000000000009"></iframe> <iframe style="position: absolute; width: 34.18px; height: 3.24px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1638px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT2_88314869" scrolling="no" width="34.180000000000064" height="3.240000000000009"></iframe> <iframe style="position: absolute; width: 34.18px; height: 3.24px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 15px; top: 102px;" id="MoatPxIOPT2_43862792" scrolling="no" width="34.180000000000064" height="3.240000000000009"></iframe> <iframe style="position: absolute; width: 34.18px; height: 3.24px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1638px; top: 102px;" id="MoatPxIOPT2_32383119" scrolling="no" width="34.180000000000064" height="3.240000000000009"></iframe> |
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Post by antigua on Jun 9, 2019 1:39:59 GMT -5
Hi there, I hope that someone is reading this and can give me an answer. (sorry for my English, I'm not a native !) I installed the HfH in an Tokai Les Paul in the neck position. (Tone Pots are already out of the circuit, I don't like "Woman Tone"...) It is more defined and less muddy than an PAFish Hummie, but not as defined as I would wish, especially at the low strings... My LCR Meter reads about 2,3 Henry at 200 Hz... My main question is this: A Single Coil with 2,3 H would be in the lower range, so why is the Hummie with same Inductance fatter and "woolier" than a Strat SC ? (I know that the construction of the guitar itself plays another important role, but I formerly installed a real Strat SC in the Neck Slot of the Les Paul (adapter ring made it possible) and that one sounded more trebly !) Does the magnet play another important role beside the Inductance, or is this already being reflected into the Inductance ?Would be great to get an answer, Thanks a lot ! Without knowing what you're hearing, I'd guess the difference owes to the difference in width of the pickup. The wider humbucker receives harmonic content from two different locations along the string, some of the harmonic content adds together, and some of it cancels. A guy named J Donald Tillman made this interactive demo www.till.com/articles/PickupResponseDemo/ . If you enter in the geometry of a humbucker into the demo, you can see that it notches out particular frequencies in the treble range, but if a you simulate a single coil, a pickup that reads one spot along the string, you don't see those cancellations, and that's a plausible reason to perceive them as being brighter, even if the resonance peaks are the same. |
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timboland
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Post by timboland on Jun 10, 2019 13:58:30 GMT -5
Thank you for your explanations !
I read a book about Guitar Electrics by a German Engineer in which he wrote that Inductance is the main
reason for the "fatter, warmer" sound of Humbuckers in comparison with SCs...
He said that the higher Inductance of an average Humbucker has much bigger impact when it comes to sound than
the fact that the Humbucker "reads" the signal from two different spots of the strings and the resulting frequency
cancellations...
Meanwhile I found out that I like the sound when using a Buffer pedal even when there aren´t any other
pedals in the chain... the lack of cable capacitance results in higher
resonant frequency which gives the sound more of an acoustic, percussive note I like !
Furthermore I use the Vol. Pot with treble bleed cap (1 nF) as a low cut by rolling down the volume to somewhere
between 8 and 7...
Maybe I will turn the Tone Pot (which is already being out of the circuit) into a passive Bass Cut with 500 oder 1000 Ohm
and a 2 nF cap...
But I must admit that my personal "tonal taste" is some kind of weird... most of the time I roll down the Bass of my amps nearly to 0 and turn
the trebles (almost) full up.
In my opinion most of the amps tend to get muddy at a certain gain level (mostly about 12 -1 o´clock) no matter where
I leave the Bass Control of the amp...
a (passive) Bass Cut in the guitar´s electronics helps me a lot to get the well defined, almost percussive sound I'm looking for.
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Post by antigua on Jun 10, 2019 22:27:53 GMT -5
Thank you for your explanations ! I read a book about Guitar Electrics by a German Engineer in which he wrote that Inductance is the main reason for the "fatter, warmer" sound of Humbuckers in comparison with SCs... He said that the higher Inductance of an average Humbucker has much bigger impact when it comes to sound than the fact that the Humbucker "reads" the signal from two different spots of the strings and the resulting frequency cancellations... That's broadly true, though. The "PAF clone", which is the generic "humbucker" that people think of, has an inductance between 4 and 6 henries to a Fender single coil's 2 to 3 henries, so in that case, the difference is mostly in the fact that the treble cuts off at a low frequency, emphasizing bass and mids, and a dulled attack. To my ears, Filter'trons and the Humbucker from Hell, at around 2 henries, are very bright humbuckers, on par with Fender single coils, and I wouldn't personally describe them as fat and woolly, but that notch filtering is a factor, and words to describe audio is subjective, and you might describe it as fat and woolly. The amp(s) you use might lend themselves to that outcome, too. Conversely, if you take a single coil and give it a very high inductance, like an SSL-5 having an inductance around 6 henries, it's a dark, fat sounding single coil, which nevertheless has a particular treble characteristic due to the lack of comb filtering you would get with a humbucker. So there are two filtering mechanisms that overlap, one being physical comb filtering, and the other being electrical resonance, and the final product is whatever survives that filtering. That's basically the definition of what sets all pickups apart from one another. Meanwhile I found out that I like the sound when using a Buffer pedal even when there aren´t any other pedals in the chain... the lack of cable capacitance results in higher resonant frequency which gives the sound more of an acoustic, percussive note I like ! Furthermore I use the Vol. Pot with treble bleed cap (1 nF) as a low cut by rolling down the volume to somewhere between 8 and 7... Maybe I will turn the Tone Pot (which is already being out of the circuit) into a passive Bass Cut with 500 oder 1000 Ohm and a 2 nF cap... But I must admit that my personal "tonal taste" is some kind of weird... most of the time I roll down the Bass of my amps nearly to 0 and turn the trebles (almost) full up. In my opinion most of the amps tend to get muddy at a certain gain level (mostly about 12 -1 o´clock) no matter where I leave the Bass Control of the amp... a (passive) Bass Cut in the guitar´s electronics helps me a lot to get the well defined, almost percussive sound I'm looking for. What sort of amps are you using? I've noticed trends that tend to follow with the amount of power on tap. In general, the more clean and powerful the amp, the easier it is to get what I want, the less power it has, the dirtier it become, the more I have to negotiate with the tone controls. I think people tend to focus on pickup and tone controls instead of the amp because new pickups cost a lot less than a new amp, in most cases, and so it's a more economical place to start. |
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timboland
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Post by timboland on Jun 16, 2019 13:19:39 GMT -5
Hey Andigua, sorry for my late response ! Well, I use different amps, but (as I mentioned before) my own taste and my own perception is some kind of weird... I call myself a "Treble fetishist", because nobody else would turn the treble up is I do... I own a Suhr Sl 68, which is an interpretation of Marshalls famous "Super Lead" model, but after a while I found the sound a little bit too "polished" and lacking those raspy treble frequencies I associate with old Plexis... so I took it to an amp tech who modded the amp ( changing / removing some cathode bypass caps and changing the treble bleed cap.... I even let him install a treble bleed cap at the Volume Pot of the Normal Channel) When I played the amp my way (Bass completely down, Treble and Presence almost full up) he said that if I would play in front of an audience with this settings, the people would ran away because it´s so shrill sounding,.. But that's just me, so took it with a grain of salt !  I have to say that I really appreciate your motivation to publish the important values of pickups out there ! "Pickuplogy" has become some kind of modern myth and its great that there are people out there who contribute to demystify the hype. In the last years I spent lots of money for pickups I had no exactly idea of what they would sound like in comparison to those I wanted to exchange... Its all about marketing and psychology I guess... A lot of Pickup makers refuse to tell the Inductance of their products because they don't want to make them compareable... The priciest German "Boutique" maker is one of them....he sells his Strat sets for about 400 bucks... in a conversation a few years ago he tried to tell my that "those values" don't matter at all and therefore he wouldn't tell them... I guess that some of them don't even know the Inductance of their own creations ! |
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Post by antigua on Jun 17, 2019 18:28:21 GMT -5
Have you tried an attenuator like this reverb.com/item/282050-weber-mass-lite-attenuator-100-watt ? I think you'd like it for two reasons: it has seperate bass and treble attenuation, and you can push the power tubes to mild saturation at lower volumes, and IMO, it sounds a lot better than a master volume. You could get a really nice, dirty treble going with it. |
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Post by pablogilberto on Jun 18, 2019 4:14:17 GMT -5
Hello! I’m a newbie here. I’d like to ask, how do you measure the Gauss? Thank you! www.dimarzio.com/pickups/humbuckers/humbucker-hellThis is a bright humbucker, very similar to a Filter'tron in a number of ways, or perhaps a "hot" Filter'tron. The inductance and resonant peaks are similar, though just slightly "hotter", somewhere between a TV Classic and a TV Classic Plus. The eddy current losses are also similar, though with a cover, the Humbucker from Hell would be even closer. The DiMarzio EJ (Eric Johnson) Custom is also a PAF style humbucker that is specifically supposed to sound like a Filter'tron, so it will be interesting to see how that compares on a technical level, since the Humbucker from Hell is so close already. Some will liken this to a Strat pickup, though not only is it more like a Filter'tron, but both are somewhat brighter than Strat pickups, with loaded peaks close to 5kHz, where as a Strat is more typically close to 4kHz, not to mention that the physical layout between a PAF and a Filter'tron are more alike than either is to a single coil Strat pickup. The Humbucker from Hell has obviously mismatched coils, with the black bobbin being the larger of the two, see the picture below. The "green and white" wires lead to the black coil with the thicker spool, and the fact that it reads a lower DC resistance despite the extra thickness suggests that it's wound with 42 AWG while the cream bobbin (black ad red) is wound with 43 AWG. DiMarzio Humbucker From Hell DP156BC
Series resistance: 5.96k ohms
green & white: 2.507k ohms
black & red: 3.432k ohms
Series inductance: 2.272H
green & white: 0.988H
black & red: 1.029H
Gauss at 3rd and 4th screws: 350-450G, AlNiCo 5
Unloaded: V: 22.4dBV f: 11.5kHz (black)
green & white: V: 20.7dBV f: 14.1kHz (green)
black & red: V: 23.0dBV f: 13.8kHz (gray)
Loaded (200k & 470pF): V: 20.1dBV f: 4.57kHz (red)
Baseline: 18.1dB
Bode PlotNote that the two coils have similar inductance and similar peaks despite one being 42AWG and the other being 43AWG. I have no idea what the utility in this is. This is apparently alluded to in DiMarzio's "dual resonance" patent, though as you can see, the red and black lines each exhibit only a single resonance. You do see a double bump in the green line (black bobbin), but that's unrelated, as this is just one coil, unloaded, being analyzed by itself. Notice that the coil on the cream bobbin is quite a bit thinner than the coil on the black bobbin: |
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Post by antigua on Jun 18, 2019 12:38:34 GMT -5
Hello! I’m a newbie here. I’d like to ask, how do you measure the Gauss? Thank you! I have a few magnetometers (all "Hall effect" sensor based), but the one I use now is the WT10A www.amazon.com/s?k=WT10A&ref=nb_sb_noss_2 , it goes for about $110 USD on Amazon. It reports milliteslas instead of Gauss, so you just multiply the displayed value by 10 in order to determine the Gauss value. |
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Post by pablogilberto on Jun 18, 2019 22:18:53 GMT -5
Thank you antiguaAnother question is, how do you determine if a magnet bar is ceramic or alnico? Can you do it by visual or some physical inspection? Or you need to really measure the Gauss? |
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Post by antigua on Jun 18, 2019 23:05:57 GMT -5
Thank you antigua Another question is, how do you determine if a magnet bar is ceramic or alnico? Can you do it by visual or some physical inspection? Or you need to really measure the Gauss? Ceramic magnets are darker, often blackish gray/brown, and is non-metalic. AlNiCo is metallic, usually shiny, with visible streaks across the surface from having been polished. The magnetometer comes in handy when telling apart AlNiCo 5 from AlNiCo 2, 3 or 4, as AlNiCo 5 will usually measure about 30% - 40% higher than the others. Sometimes it's possible to tell AlNiCo 3 apart from 2 and 4, as AlNiCo 3 will be about 10% weaker than AlNiCo 2 or 4, but that requires that you have points of comparison and consistent samples. AlNiCo 2 and 4 read nearly the same strength in practice, so they're not readily distinguishable from one another. If the AlNiCo magnet is short and wide, 4 would be stronger than 2, because 4 has a lower remanence, but a higher coercivity (making it less reliant on geometry to maintain its strength), but since AlNiCo works better when it's taller and thinner, that's how it's usually how its shaped, and so 2 and 4 end up being about the same strength. |
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Post by pablogilberto on Jun 19, 2019 0:07:04 GMT -5
Thank you so much for this valuable information.
I’m planning to start building some pickups.
Do you have recommendations where I can get good quality pickup parts / kits and coil wire?
Is stewmac products worth it for the price?
Thanks in advance.
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Post by antigua on Jun 19, 2019 15:06:05 GMT -5
Thank you so much for this valuable information. I’m planning to start building some pickups. Do you have recommendations where I can get good quality pickup parts / kits and coil wire? Is stewmac products worth it for the price? Thanks in advance. Glad to help, unfortunately I don't know much about sourcing. A lot of the pickup makers won't divulge that info since high value sourcing gives them a competitive advantage. I hope you share your pickup making adventures with us here. |
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Post by pablogilberto on Jun 20, 2019 23:16:22 GMT -5
Thank you Antigua.
Yes. I’ll share my first prototype here.
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Post by straylight on Jul 6, 2019 20:02:36 GMT -5
I’m planning to start building some pickups. Do you have recommendations where I can get good quality pickup parts / kits and coil wire? Is stewmac products worth it for the price? Ebay or aliexpress for parts, the Donlis Aliexpress store is quite good. Screws best found from a commercial bolt supplier either through e-bay or locally if you live near an industrial supplier In the UK, i'm sourcing my magnet wire from Brocott, it's very consistent in quality and the reels feed well. Ebay is a good source for old stock wire, but beware sellers winding modern polysol onto an old bobbin and selling it as formvar. But as you're here, you can probalby work out how to get the sound you want by design rather than by reenactment.
Stewmac is very very expensive, and sells a lot of gimmicy products.
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Post by pablogilberto on Jul 7, 2019 22:08:44 GMT -5
Thanks for the info! Will check them out. Do you happen to know any good magnet supplier in aliexpress? Thank you so much! I’m planning to start building some pickups. Do you have recommendations where I can get good quality pickup parts / kits and coil wire? Is stewmac products worth it for the price? Ebay or aliexpress for parts, the Donlis Aliexpress store is quite good. Screws best found from a commercial bolt supplier either through e-bay or locally if you live near an industrial supplier In the UK, i'm sourcing my magnet wire from Brocott, it's very consistent in quality and the reels feed well. Ebay is a good source for old stock wire, but beware sellers winding modern polysol onto an old bobbin and selling it as formvar. But as you're here, you can probalby work out how to get the sound you want by design rather than by reenactment.
Stewmac is very very expensive, and sells a lot of gimmicy products.
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Post by straylight on Jul 12, 2019 6:22:33 GMT -5
I'm using Guy's Magnets for bulk UK based alnico rods. Ali Express is not so good for magnets, I'm doing better with e-bay for alnico and ceramic bar. Stay away from uncharged, it's a pain in the backside to get uncharged alnico up to decent strength and i suspect it's a scam way to sell things that aren't good magnets. Alnico is going to be pricey, thre's not a lot of getting around that.
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Post by pablogilberto on Jan 12, 2020 21:46:46 GMT -5
I'm using Guy's Magnets for bulk UK based alnico rods. Ali Express is not so good for magnets, I'm doing better with e-bay for alnico and ceramic bar. Stay away from uncharged, it's a pain in the backside to get uncharged alnico up to decent strength and i suspect it's a scam way to sell things that aren't good magnets. Alnico is going to be pricey, thre's not a lot of getting around that. How do you know if magnets are of good qulality? What tool do you use in measuring the magnetic field strength? I have the built-in sensor from my mojotone pickup winder but I'm looking for something that can meausure the poles of a pickup individually (without having to unwound the wire). |
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Post by antigua on Jan 12, 2020 23:50:59 GMT -5
I'm using Guy's Magnets for bulk UK based alnico rods. Ali Express is not so good for magnets, I'm doing better with e-bay for alnico and ceramic bar. Stay away from uncharged, it's a pain in the backside to get uncharged alnico up to decent strength and i suspect it's a scam way to sell things that aren't good magnets. Alnico is going to be pricey, thre's not a lot of getting around that. How do you know if magnets are of good qulality? What tool do you use in measuring the magnetic field strength? I have the built-in sensor from my mojotone pickup winder but I'm looking for something that can meausure the poles of a pickup individually (without having to unwound the wire). The WT10A magnetometer is really good, about $110 on Amazon. |
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Post by pablogilberto on Jan 13, 2020 2:54:00 GMT -5
How do you know if magnets are of good qulality? What tool do you use in measuring the magnetic field strength? I have the built-in sensor from my mojotone pickup winder but I'm looking for something that can meausure the poles of a pickup individually (without having to unwound the wire). The WT10A magnetometer is really good, about $110 on Amazon. Thanks for the recommendation. I'll check it out. Does it measure the individual poles well? I mean, without being affected by the nearby poles? For a strat, I'd like to check the deviations of magnetic field per pole. So I'll have a clue what specifit Alnico (2,3 or 5) are they using or maybe a combination of this magnets in a single bobbin? Btw, have you also performed experiments on the effects of using different Alnicos in a single bobbin? |
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Post by antigua on Jan 13, 2020 10:44:57 GMT -5
The WT10A magnetometer is really good, about $110 on Amazon. Thanks for the recommendation. I'll check it out. Does it measure the individual poles well? I mean, without being affected by the nearby poles? For a strat, I'd like to check the deviations of magnetic field per pole. So I'll have a clue what specifit Alnico (2,3 or 5) are they using or maybe a combination of this magnets in a single bobbin? Btw, have you also performed experiments on the effects of using different Alnicos in a single bobbin? The metal probe is about 3mm across, the actual Hall effect sensor is probably 2/3rd's of that. It's precise enough to measure discrete points in space, but the nature of magnetic fields is that they expand to infinity, so if you have two magnets side by side, you will measure both at once no matter what. For example, in a Strat, the pole pieces usually measure about 1200 Guass when they are not in a pickup, but in a pickup, with neighboring pole pieces of the same polarity, it drops to ~1050 Gauss. With staggered Strat pickups, the pole pieces one the ends can read stronger because they have one neighboring pole piece instead of two, but might also measure weaker than the center pole pieces, because they're often shorter, and AlNiCo strength very with length, up to a point. If you read over 1000 Guass for Strats, it's AlNiCo, if you read 700-800, AlNiCo 2 or 4, if it's around 600, it might be AlNiCo 3, but AlNiCo 2/3/4 all sort of blend together. One thing you'll find with magnetometers is that they don't give you solid number like other electrical meters, so you have to average it out in your head. I've never made pickups with different AlNiCo pole pieces, but I bought a set from Donlis. It was supposed to be a clone of the Five-Two set, but they made it backwards and put the AlNiCo 2 under the wound strings instead of the plain strings. It sounds cool, the strings with the weaker magnets sound equivalently "lower" without being quieter. This may or may not owe to the fact that while AlNiCo 2 is a weaker magnet, it has a higher permeability and a lower reluctance in relation to the strings. |
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