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Post by angelodp on Oct 28, 2016 18:57:26 GMT -5
Hi, I am looking for a layout that may already exist, but not finding just yet... I am trying.
I am putting together a Strat with HH
Here's the specs I would like to follow.
2- Vol 1- Master Tone
5 way strat switch with Bridge HB, Bridge+Neck S, Bridge+Neck P, Neck HB Parallel coils, Neck HB
If you have this under your belt and can share the layout I would appreciate it.
Best Ange
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Post by newey on Oct 29, 2016 5:42:37 GMT -5
ange- Welcome back! It's been awhile. As for the two volume controls, JohnH's Strat with 2 volumes can serve as a template. The key there is the use of a dual-gang pot for the master tone control. As for the pickup switching, I think it can be done with a Superswitch, but no guarantees until we work it out in an actual diagraam. I don't recall anything similar being posted before, so it's likely we'll need to start with a clean sheet of paper.
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Post by reTrEaD on Oct 29, 2016 18:53:08 GMT -5
It looks to me like the switching is possible with a superswitch but not in a two-volume configuration. Because one of the selections is B x N, there's just too much that needs to be done moving the volume controls around. Perhaps someone is far more clever than me, but I think they just won't have enough poles to work with.
One volume, two tones seems possible.
Unless I am misreading the meaning of "Bridge+Neck S"? Perhaps Angelo can clarify.
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Post by sumgai on Oct 29, 2016 23:17:00 GMT -5
reTrEaD,
Simply hook up the two volume controls directly to each pickup, and not directly to either ground or output. The output of the 'lower' pup in the series chain (presumably the wiper) is sent to one of the switch poles, and is then directed either to the output (parallel) or to the lower end of the 'upper' pickup (which itself is also switched away from ground at that time).
angelo,
Nice to have you back again! Stick around this time, eh?
sumgai
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Post by JohnH on Oct 30, 2016 1:00:25 GMT -5
I also think it may be too much for a superswitch. If there is parallel wiring of coils of one HB, that tends to need two poles, and two poles are needed to combine volume outputs, leaving no poles remaining to change the wiring on the other Hb
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Post by reTrEaD on Oct 30, 2016 9:24:13 GMT -5
John, Sumgai might be almost right. It depends on what Angelo is asking for in his second and third selections.
But in my humble opinion, if he wants a local series Bridge in series with a local series Neck for his second selection, it gets ugly. Very ugly. The way to put the two volumes in series takes three poles. Only two poles if you're willing to permanently connect one wiper to the output. But that creates a hanging from hot condition when the other pickup is selected alone. And if the volume is reduced a bit on that other pickup when it's selected alone, the hanging junk could be a big factor. So it's do-able with just two poles but personally, I would rather not do that.
It doesn't look to me like he's asking for the bridge coils in parallel in any of his selections. But then again, it isn't clear exactly what he wants.
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Post by JohnH on Oct 30, 2016 15:03:20 GMT -5
I had in my head that 'S' was for 'single'. I must have mentally repressed the notion that it could be 'series' on account of how yukky two humbuckers in series can sound.
Some further clarification on what it is that we are designing would help.
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Post by sumgai on Oct 30, 2016 16:36:08 GMT -5
I was strictly answering reTrEaD's surmisal about switching volume controls between series and parallel, not thinking terms of how to accomplish the (not quite clearly stated) goals.
Like John, I first took S to mean a single coil out of the pair in the Hb, not to mean Series. Then again, Angelo also asks for a combo with a P - what are we supposed to think then?
Angelo, we need a clean-up in Aisle 3, please!
sumgai
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Post by newey on Oct 31, 2016 5:22:40 GMT -5
Yeah, I took "S" and "P" to mean series and parallel. Since only one HB was being split, I thought that one of the two poles to do that could also be doing the intra-pickup series/parallel at position 2, along with another pole. But again, until one tries to actually do that, not sure it can be done.
Life here would be a lot easier if Ange would have a P/P to split that pickup.
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Post by angelodp on Nov 7, 2016 18:39:55 GMT -5
Hi to all and thanks for welcome back. Upon some further research, I have heard a guitar that has what I need. 2- Humbuckers 2- Volume 2- tone 1- LP switch Here is how it seems to work but I still don't have a layout. Each pickup can be selected with the toggle or one can select the two pickups in series. Each volume pot has a switch on it so that each pickup may be selected for series or parallel operation. Now thats bit different than what I posted as I have two guitars I am working on, both will be 1-HB - One is a Strat based design with 2-HB, 1 Master Tone, 2 Volumes, and a three way switch, each volume pot has a push/pull switch so that series parallel may be selected for the individual pickup. The three way switch can select either of the two HB's or both in series ( make that parallel as tow HB's in Series is yucky ). The second guitar is a more of an SG setup also with 2-HB, 2 Vol, 2 Tone, 1 three way switch, push/pull on the vol pot for selecting series or parallel on each pickup. Here is a typical Series/ parallel setup for a HB. Now I have some more questions before I wrap up. The guitar that is SG like is a Washburn Tabu TB-200. It sounded like crap since it has 27 coats of poly on it. I have it stripped down to the bear wood, bass or alder perhaps. It has a nice tone as an acoustic now. The pickups are overwound, but have alnico ( 5 I think Magnets ). I plan or rewinding the pups to 7.8K 8K. Here is the question on the pups - the bobbins are ok but they are a plastic type sleeve a tad thicker than the PAF type. Am I ok with these bobbins? So there you have it. I am looking to draw up tow distinct layouts have the descriptions above. I am scouting existing designs and will be back as I get this roughed out. Cheers Ange
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Post by newey on Nov 7, 2016 22:49:23 GMT -5
Well, ange, we weren't clear on what you wanted on the one guitar, now it's two? My head swims a bit here.
Starting with:
The "two pickups in series" in the center position is like old Teisco wiring. But when you add those infra-pickup series/parallel switches, now you'll break the two-pickup series chain when you select parallel on one pickup and series on the other (I think). This can be solved, but not (again, I think) with a std. LP-style 3-way switch
But then, later, you said you wanted parallel, not series, so that's confusing.
I suspect your bobbins will be fine for the rewinding. Many pickups use plastic bobbins, there's nothing inherently wrong with them. The bobbin probably has a lesser effect on the overall sound of a given pickup than other factors, such as the wire gauge, windings, magnet type, and so forth. But our pickup guru, antigua, would be able to give you a more meaningful opinion, you might try dropping him a PM.
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Post by angelodp on Nov 10, 2016 23:49:22 GMT -5
Hi Newey and co, here is a layout from a player guitar that is quite interesting. Its two HB's that allow for a Series to Parallel operation for the Neck pup asa well as the Bridge pup. It also has that ability to shut down the Neck and go to bridge in series..... I think. I am unsure about that connection that goes from R to Ground on the push/pull pot......Does that make sense. It had to see the connections in the cavity. Its Nutz trying to determine the Value of these two pups. Would I be right that its 7.8 and 5.7? Here is the prospective guitar. Its a Washburn that I stripped. It now has some tone to it. Can't believe how many layers of poly were on this thing. Wilkinson bridge is very good. Tuners?? Heavy they will go.
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Post by newey on Nov 11, 2016 6:51:40 GMT -5
Sounds low for HBs, but I couldn't tell from your sheet exactly what you were measuring. If the pickups are disconnected, it's simple to check, but wired in is another story. The wiring diagram, likewise, I can't tell much because it doesn't show which pickup is wired where, and because we don't know the color code of the pickups. But it may well do what you say it does, since it apparently has a 4-pole switch to do the series/parallel housekeeping. Previously, you were talking about using a regular 3-way switch, and, as pointed out by RT and sg, you'd have issues with the series stuff. But with a 4-pole switch it is likely possible. I think this thread need to focus more on exactly what you want to do and what switching you'll have available, if we're going to be able to give meaningful assistance. We seem to be meandering around quite a bit. BTW, my infamous "flying pumpkin" was made (errr . . deconstructed) from the same sort of Washburn you have there. But it doesn't have any fancy pickup wiring, just the std 3-way with the 2 pickups wired OOP at the center position- the famous Danny Green mod. (I put some old Epiphone LP pickups into it). And, yes, it was a chore to sand it down for refinishing, I feel your pain.
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Post by angelodp on Nov 11, 2016 9:41:09 GMT -5
Newey, I simply put a guitar cable in the jack and turned the volume knob up to full. This are accurate readings at the various switch settings. Yes I am meandering on purpose as I am trying to figure this out on a variety of levels.
Back to figuring ou the pup levels. You can see the grouping of wires for the pups. What do I need to calculate the DC resistance of each pickup? This guitar sounds great. I don't want to undo any connections.
Ange
PS at this point I am looking to fully deconstruct this last layout so I understand the levels of the two pickups, should I decide to wind at those levels. Thats the help I need right now. Sorry if this a bit scattered, but thats my process, I will zero in on a layout through these investigations. Maybe thats not an appropriate method for posting here?? I have always found that the community has many many insights and knowledge that I do not have.
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Post by angelodp on Nov 11, 2016 10:14:17 GMT -5
On the paint removal, I used stripper, that went reasonably well.... once I had my method down. Apply, wait....wait.... scrape with gloves on,,,,,reapply..... so on so forth. I switched to razor blades with the micro curve, then sanding with palm sander. 2 hrs invested.
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Post by angelodp on Nov 20, 2016 20:47:18 GMT -5
Hi all, here is something interesting using the Axetec super switch. Its a tad different but I like it and will do. Hope this might help any others in search of a 2 HB plan like this. Best Ange
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Post by sumgai on Nov 21, 2016 3:31:51 GMT -5
EDIT: Disregard this post. I would delete it, but then reTrEaD's following message would make no sense at all. Hope this might help any others in search of a 2 HB plan like this.
Hate to break it to ya, Ange, but I don't hope so. That thing is so messed up, I don't know where to begin. But instead of leaving you in the lurch, let me give you an example: the easiest thing to spot is the fact that the two hot wires (red) are tied together, meaning that each pickup will be sounding out in all positions of the selector switch, period.
Second, the switch is wired to split coils (and poorly at that), not series or parallel for each pup; except for Position 3 - that one activates both coils of both pickups, and sends them out in parallel (not series, as stated).
Need I go any further?
BTW, I don't see any info about that 5-way switch on their site (irongear.co.uk), so I'm left to believe that they've simply rebranded a standard Superswitch with their own part number. Given that, and the lack of anything to the contrary, I don't see this wiring lash-up as being anywhere near capable of giving the expected results.
Sorry to have been the one to break it to ya.
sumgai
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Post by reTrEaD on Nov 21, 2016 6:24:22 GMT -5
That thing is so messed up, I don't know where to begin. You should probably begin by taking closer look at it. It's definitely ugly. But it does work as-advertised. [the two hot wires (red) are tied together]
True. [meaning that each pickup will be sounding out in all positions of the selector switch, period.]
No, that isn't what that means. It means that the screw coil of each pickup will always hang from hot, even when not selected. [Second, the switch is wired to split coils (and poorly at that), not series or parallel for each pup]
Not true. [except for Position 3 - that one activates both coils of both pickups, and sends them out in parallel (not series, as stated).]What we've got here is failure to communicate. "Bridge+Neck Series HB" means the Bridge is in Parallel with the Neck This is implied by the (+) They then indicate that each HB is in local series. Ambiguous labeling, imho. I'm not surprised that you misunderstood their intention. I reckon half the people reading that would get it wrong. Especially those with a hair-trigger. [Need I go any further?]You don't "need" to go further, but if you're up to the challenge you can rework this drawing to give the advertised combinations without the hanging from hot issues. It's possible to accomplish this. I can give a suggestion for the use of the four poles if you get stumped.
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Post by sumgai on Nov 21, 2016 11:53:05 GMT -5
reTrEaD,
I see where I went wrong: without any position markers, I had them in reverse of the truth. Once I looked at it again (thanks to your "gentle" prodding), I saw what was going on. (All of which goes to using schematics instead of kiddie diagrams to design and discuss logic problems.)
You're correct, the diagram will do the job. But I don't like their Truth Table's terminology about Position 3, they could've done a better job there.
Ange, mea culpa. Go ahead and push the Easy button!
sumgai
p.s. I haven't been called 'hair trigger' by anybody since the days of Channelman. Hmmmmm.........
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Post by JohnH on Nov 21, 2016 14:27:42 GMT -5
We can play around with this.
I think the two reds hanging from hot are inevitable based on a 4-pole superswitch and these desired combo settings. As with a simple S/P switch for one pickup using two poles, all the poles are needed to redirect the connections at the central links between coils, none are spare to work on connecting and reconnecting the hot wires. The only way to switch the pickups off is to break the series links, leaving reds hanging.
On the diagram, I dislike how it is drawn. It tries to show a wiring layout but the way the red wires are laid out offers no good advice as to how they would really be connected, and implies a tangle of red wires with joints in mid air, instead of mostly being neatly arranged across the switch lugs.
As to redesigning it without hanging: I can see how to do all of that except that the central position, instead of being a normal parallel combo of full humbuckers, is a series combo of one coil of each pickup - actually this can be a very nice clear hum-cancelling sound.
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Post by sumgai on Nov 21, 2016 19:01:39 GMT -5
John,
While we're on the topic of hanging from hot.... I do note that what 'TrEaD said is true - in positions 1 & 2 or 4 & 5 (as appropriate), the entire coil is hanging from hot, not just one side of said coil. As per the discussion in my Baja Tele thread of years ago, the current setup should exhibit negligible humming/buzzing, except perhaps under the most hostile conditions.
But I also agree with you in that both Hb's split to one coil each in Position 3 might sound a bit better in terms of "sparkle" instead of "yet more mud". But that would be up to the individual building/owning/playing this thing, not me.
sumgai
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Post by reTrEaD on Nov 21, 2016 23:55:05 GMT -5
But I don't like their Truth Table's terminology about Position 3, they could've done a better job there. I agree completely. A better choice (imho) would be to describe explicitly. Perhaps something like ... Position 3: [Bridge Screw x Bridge Slug] + [Neck Screw x Neck Slug] It's a long and clumsy way to describe that combination but there is no ambiguity. Apparently we've been slacking off. Channelman was the guy with the Mr Spock avatar?
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Post by reTrEaD on Nov 21, 2016 23:57:09 GMT -5
I think the two reds hanging from hot are inevitable based on a 4-pole superswitch and these desired combo settings. I think all five combinations in the irongear diagram are possible without a single hanging from hot issue. We just need to look at things from a different perspective. Before we proceed, let's consider the color code, since it differs slightly from the SD colors that we're all familar with. IronGear: Screw (+) = Red Screw (-) = Green Slug (+) = White Slug (-) = Black www.irongear.co.uk/irongear_humbucker_coil_polarities_igwatermark.gifWe can assign each slug (-) [Black] directly to ground. We can assign each Screw (-) [Green] to a pole on the superswitch (this allows the Screw (-) to be used as a local series link or a local parallel connection to ground) We can assign the other two poles of the superswitch to the hot output (to volume control cw). (this provides the two parallel paths necessary) All four (+) connections are assigned to appropriate throws on the superswitch. Can you see the vision, John? That seems a rather versatile arrangement to me. It can cleanly achieve the five listed Irongear combinations. Or one of the listed combinations (such as Bridge local parallel) could be deleted and a different combination could be substituted. Other contenders for a useful combination: Bridge Screw + Neck Slug Bridge Screw x Neck Slug Neck Screw + Bridge Slug Neck Screw x Bridge Slug Neck Screw + [Bridge Screw x Bridge Slug] Are you still with me, John? If so, I'll move forward to how this basic architecture can be combined with a system Series/Parallel switch. But that will require that we think outside-the-box from conventional thinking. In one of the combinations (the one currently in position 3) we'll be using the S/P switch as a "Single/Parallel" switch. That will give us just Bridge (local series) or Bridge (local series) in parallel with Neck (local series) Other combinations will require use of one of the Screw coils to be used in the top of the stack when the system switch is in the series mode. This architecture doesn't lend itself to OOP but it provides for many useful combinations. Have I piqued your curiosity? Or perhaps you're already thinking ahead ...
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Post by JohnH on Nov 22, 2016 2:21:57 GMT -5
That's great thinking reTrEaD. That must be the best way to set up a 5-way switch for HH.
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Post by newey on Nov 22, 2016 6:28:57 GMT -5
RT-
As an aside, I don't think we have the Irongear color codes in our reference section listing. Could you please repost that there, so we don't have to hunt for it in the future?
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Post by reTrEaD on Nov 22, 2016 9:24:04 GMT -5
[Repost color codes in Reference section] Done. the best way to set up a 5-way switch for HH. I'll go as far as one of the best ways. If you must have OOP, it's mostly useless. But if (like me) you can do without OOP, this arrangement can take you almost anywhere you want to go. If OOP is a necessity, I think pre-linking the two Bridge coils is a better strategy. That takes Bridge (local parallel) out of the list of possibilities. But it frees up one more pole of the superswitch.
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Post by angelodp on Nov 24, 2016 0:42:25 GMT -5
Revised layout included. I reverted to Gibson colors for the bobbins. Ok so it will work but has some flaws. I was also non-plussed by the layout, but that is an easy fix. You say that the two pickups in series are an interesting sound? Is it not possible to have the traditional two buckers in a parallel arrangement, as in most LP's? OOP is not on my list, do not care for it. Made a correction here. I flubbed my own post. Typical 2 HB's are in parallel in the middle position. here is the sound of a guitar with the setup I am going for ..... except that he is using push/pull not a superswitch. So whats the verdict can I get this with super switch? 1. Bridge HB Series 2. Bridge HB Parallel 3. Bridge in series - parallel to - Neck in series ( or is it possible to do Bridge in series - in series to - Neck in Series ) 4. Neck in Parallel 5. Neck in Series
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Post by sumgai on Nov 24, 2016 11:11:50 GMT -5
reTrEaD,
Just realized that I never answered your question - yes, Channelman did have the Spock avatar.
ange,
No, the combo of two pickups in series (what ChrisK used to call "global series") in not possible here. That's because both pickup hot leads are tied together, and both ground leads are tied together. As previously discussed, separating them requires more switching, it won't be as simple as just rearranging the connections on the SuperSwitch... unless you transfer those functions currently on the 5-way to another switch such as a p-p or a toggle of some sort. But as noted by all and sundry, two fully-engaged humbuckers (both coils on), set in global series, is mighty dull sounding. If you do want to go down this road, you may wish to experiment as you meander along the path. I'm with John, I believe that splitting to one coil per pup will sound better in this scenario.
HTH
sumgai
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Post by reTrEaD on Nov 24, 2016 12:26:24 GMT -5
So whats the verdict can I get this with super switch? 1. Bridge HB Series 2. Bridge HB Parallel 3. Bridge in series - parallel to - Neck in series ( or is it possible to do Bridge in series - in series to - Neck in Series ) 4. Neck in Parallel 5. Neck in Series Yes, that's all definitely possible. It's in the drawing you have. But if you choose to do that, I suggest we rework that drawing to eliminate the hanging-from-hot issues. They aren't deal-breakers but it makes sense to eliminate minor sources of hum and noise when possible. And it's definitely possible here without sacrificing anything. I noticed the "revised" layout has Gibson color codes. Will you be using Gibson pickups? If so, we'll start with that rather than the SD colors as we move forward. With just a superswitch and a rework of the basic architecture, the following combinations are possible, but you'll have to pick any 5 (only 5) from the list: Bridge (local series) Bridge (local parallel) Bridge (local series) in parallel with Neck (local parallel) Neck (local parallel) Neck (local series) Neck North in parallel with Bridge South Neck North in series with Bridge South Neck South in parallel with Bridge North Neck South in series with Bridge North Neck North in parallel with Bridge (local series) Neck South in parallel with Bridge (local series) Bridge South in parallel with Neck (local series) Bridge South in parallel with Neck (local series) If you want design around a superswitch and one push-pull, we can get you nine or ten combinations instead of just five. I'll rework your drawing to show the basic architecture and we can fill in the blanks later. But first I need to know ... 1 - Which color codes we'll work with? 2 - Just a superswitch -or- a superswitch and a push-pull?
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Post by JohnH on Nov 24, 2016 14:28:23 GMT -5
This thread has great potential to create a classic wiring scheme. The basic package is a very practical set, and with reTrEaD as architect, we will see it done right.
There are interesting bells and whistles that can be added with an extra push/pull. Maybe not wanted in the base build, but worth developing on paper at least, to explore further schemes afterwards. Here's one that I think would be interesting, using a push-pull. Its a 'cross-over' switch. Basically, you take the hot ends of the two coils that will be grounded at their other ends, and swap them. Now all the 1, 2, 4 and 5 combos are not pure bridge or pure neck, but have one coil from each, and you can have all sets of inner and outer coils, in series or parallel across those 4 settings. All settings can be humcancelling.
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