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Post by angelodp on Nov 24, 2016 14:58:34 GMT -5
So whats the verdict can I get this with super switch? 1. Bridge HB Series 2. Bridge HB Parallel 3. Bridge in series - parallel to - Neck in series ( or is it possible to do Bridge in series - in series to - Neck in Series ) 4. Neck in Parallel 5. Neck in Series Yes, that's all definitely possible. It's in the drawing you have. But if you choose to do that, I suggest we rework that drawing to eliminate the hanging-from-hot issues. They aren't deal-breakers but it makes sense to eliminate minor sources of hum and noise when possible. And it's definitely possible here without sacrificing anything. I noticed the "revised" layout has Gibson color codes. Will you be using Gibson pickups? If so, we'll start with that rather than the SD colors as we move forward. With just a superswitch and a rework of the basic architecture, the following combinations are possible, but you'll have to pick any 5 (only 5) from the list: Bridge (local series) Bridge (local parallel) Bridge (local series) in parallel with Neck (local parallel) Neck (local parallel) Neck (local series) Neck North in parallel with Bridge South Neck North in series with Bridge South Neck South in parallel with Bridge North Neck South in series with Bridge North Neck North in parallel with Bridge (local series) Neck South in parallel with Bridge (local series) Bridge South in parallel with Neck (local series) Bridge South in parallel with Neck (local series) If you want design around a superswitch and one push-pull, we can get you nine or ten combinations instead of just five. I'll rework your drawing to show the basic architecture and we can fill in the blanks later. But first I need to know ... 1 - Which color codes we'll work with? 2 - Just a superswitch -or- a superswitch and a push-pull? Here is the guitar I am working on for this.... its a GF body, which is very nice actually, surprise. Got a bag of parts at a garage sale and they are all nice. I wound my own pickups 7.6k, 8.6k anf the neck was a throw away which I salvaged. Hi, 1. Lets go with Gibson colors 2. Lets go with just superswitch I only need the five sounds please. Happy thanksgiving to all. Ange
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Post by reTrEaD on Nov 24, 2016 15:45:30 GMT -5
Hi, 1. Lets go with Gibson colors 2. Lets go with just superswitch I only need the five sounds please. Happy thanksgiving to all. Ange Okay, got it. Off to Thankgsiving dinner. See ya tomorrow! ... John, we'll talk more about bells and whistles and further expanding after the dust settles on this one.
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Post by reTrEaD on Nov 25, 2016 9:42:10 GMT -5
Hello Ange, This should accomplish your set of goals. I used your drawing as a starting point, then made the necessary changes. The left half of the superswitch has both poles making the connections to 'hot'. The upper right pole connects the Neck North (-) to ground or to Neck South (+) as needed. The lower right pole serves the similar function for the Bridge North (-) As always, wait until someone does us the courtesy of vetting the drawing to insure there are no error. Perhaps John, Newey, Ash, or Cyn will have time to do that. Cheers! Attachments:
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Post by JohnH on Nov 25, 2016 14:12:17 GMT -5
That all looks good to me. That is how we should do that!
Maybe just add on the diagram the fact that it is based on Gibson colours, since diagrams often have their own life away from the thread where they were created.
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Post by reTrEaD on Nov 25, 2016 16:03:26 GMT -5
Thank you, kind sir. I appreciate the proofread and I've edited the drawing to note Gibson color codes.
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Post by angelodp on Nov 25, 2016 17:28:51 GMT -5
Many thanks for thinking this through and doing the layout, you are very kind. As always the community here is so helpful and smart.
Best Ange.
PS I'll post the wiring when its all done
Question - I take that this is the view of the switch and pickups from the top side - as if you could see through the pickguard?
Ange
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Post by JohnH on Nov 25, 2016 20:17:40 GMT -5
Wiring drawings are usually drawn from the back, as they look while wiring up. Thats the case here, though a superswitch has 4 way symmetry so itd work any way. The main thing to orientate is which durection is toward the neck, as shown by how the pickups are labelled.
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Post by reTrEaD on Nov 25, 2016 21:12:09 GMT -5
Wiring drawings are usually drawn from the back, as they look while wiring up. Thats the case here, though a superswitch has 4 way symmetry so itd work any way. The main thing to orientate is which direction is toward the neck, as shown by how the pickups are labelled. John, most of that is true. But this drawing is sort of a kluge. The pots are oriented, shafts downward and the relationship of the pickups and switch are as you would be looking from the outside of the pickguard. That's just how GuitarElectronics does their drawings. If this were looking from the wiring side of the pickguard the relationship of the pickups and switch would mirrored left-to-right. Also, the superswitch would be on an angle rather than straight up the vertical axis. Fender does a nice job of layout on their drawings. Much better than this, imho. But the significant point is in your final statement. The key here are the connections to the superswitch. The label "1" is closer to the neck than the label "5".
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Post by reTrEaD on Nov 25, 2016 21:31:15 GMT -5
Many thanks for thinking this through and doing the layout, you are very kind. As always the community here is so helpful and smart. Best Ange. PS I'll post the wiring when its all done Ange, you are a pleasure to work with. You're patient when we bombard you with ideas. You ask the right questions. And you have a strong history of reporting back with results and pics when your projects are completed.
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Post by angelodp on Nov 27, 2016 21:18:23 GMT -5
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Post by reTrEaD on Nov 28, 2016 8:21:30 GMT -5
What is or isn't okay depends on context. In this case, it appears educational. There is no money or profit involved. So in my humble opinion, this is mostly okay.
If you were presenting this as an original idea to a prospective manufacturer for a fee, this would be very much NOT okay. But that doesn't seem to be the case.
I belive it's fair game to use existing graphics as a platform to work up drawings to share our ideas. But I also think it's courteous to tip our hat to those who provide those platforms, especially in a situation like this where you've used a drawing on which someone obviously spent much time and effort, as your starting point.
Where did this elaborate drawing come from?
btw, you have the Gibson wire colors correct according to North and South. For instance, the Green/Black pair goes to the South coil. But the South coil is the screw coil.
I haven't proofread the wiring in your drawing yet. I should have time to do that tomorrow.
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Post by reTrEaD on Nov 29, 2016 20:47:17 GMT -5
Ange, I apologize for taking so long to get back to you. I was juggling other projects. There are numerous problems with your wiring diagram. The first is the sequence of the connections to the superswitch. But beyond that, there are other inconsistencies. So it won't even give you the desired combinations in reverse order.
I suggest starting with a blank slate and giving it another try. Just treat the switch in your drawing as though the right end of it corresponds to the top end of the switch in my drawing.
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Post by angelodp on Dec 4, 2016 16:55:05 GMT -5
Hello Ange, Hi my components arrived. I have a question. We have determined that the switch is viewed as from the top of the pickguard. So ( with the Neck north ) the metal armature of the switch is to the right and the contacts are to the left and the curve of the switch is downward. Your listing of the switch actuation 1-5 - 1- which is the Bridge HB is series would have the lever south closer to the bridge? Is that right. This should accomplish your set of goals. I used your drawing as a starting point, then made the necessary changes. The left half of the superswitch has both poles making the connections to 'hot'. The upper right pole connects the Neck North (-) to ground or to Neck South (+) as needed. The lower right pole serves the similar function for the Bridge North (-) As always, wait until someone does us the courtesy of vetting the drawing to insure there are no error. Perhaps John, Newey, Ash, or Cyn will have time to do that. Cheers!
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Post by newey on Dec 4, 2016 18:01:22 GMT -5
ange-
RT's diagram above checks out OK by me.
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Post by angelodp on Dec 4, 2016 18:01:24 GMT -5
Ok, darn dyslexia, I think this is correct now. Maybe better colors, clearer .
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Post by newey on Dec 4, 2016 18:58:27 GMT -5
ange-
I think that's OK, but it's hard to visualize the jumpers on the red wires- because everything is red, it's hard to trace the connections. Basically, the neck pickup red is wired to 3 and 5 on one pole, and then to lug 4 on the other pole. Bridge red goes to 1 and 3, then to 2 on the opposite pole.
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Post by angelodp on Dec 4, 2016 19:22:04 GMT -5
Newey, thanks for checking.... can you see the connections now.... purple for red on the neck start? Ange Given the nature of this switch, I do not get some of the connections in the graphic?? It seems that some contact points are not being used when they should? Or do I misread the graphic that all agreed was good to go?
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Post by newey on Dec 4, 2016 21:37:13 GMT -5
OK, that looks good now, I just couldn't tell what you had there at first when all those were red. I don't know what you mean about the switch graphic, I think you have successfully translated RT's diagram onto your switch.
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Post by angelodp on Dec 4, 2016 22:29:34 GMT -5
Hello Ange, Hi my components arrived. I have a question. We have determined that the switch is viewed as from the top of the pickguard. So ( with the Guitar Neck top of picture) the metal armature of the switch is to the right and the contacts are to the left and the curve of the switch is downward. You have listed the various combinations. Is Bridge in Series with the switch tip at the bottom of the switch or top? Should be bottom correct. Retreads drawing. Trying to wrap my head around this switching. Is this drawing correct. A
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Post by newey on Dec 5, 2016 6:50:35 GMT -5
Sorry, the notations on the switch lugs are too tiny for my eyesight. As far as orientation of the switch in the guitar is concerned, first step is to be sure which way the switch fits into the cavity- lugs to the left or lugs to the right? Often, with a Superswitch, and depending upon the body, the switch may only fit in the guitar one way. Then, once that is determined, the neck pickup will wire to the lug furthest away from the neck, that is to say, the furthest lug becomes lug 5 on all 4 poles of the switch; the bridge pup is then wired to #1, closest to the neck.
The mechanism of the switch, being a lever, connects the lugs furthest from the neck when the lever is pointed to the neck.
Hope that makes sense!
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Post by angelodp on Dec 5, 2016 11:24:35 GMT -5
Hi Newey, I always appreciate your insights. The graphic can be toggled to zoom in so you can see more detail. I will be mounting the switch soon and thanks for the heads up. It's a great switch and has many applications.
I would love to know if there is a thread that details how you EE's go about designing a setup like I have requested. I need all these visuals to wrap my head around the connections and functions.
Build pics soon.
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Post by sumgai on Dec 5, 2016 14:22:01 GMT -5
Ange,
I don't think there are too many of us EE's hereaboots, sorry to say. Might be, but they haven't made themselves known too often, that's for sure.
As to "how to design", well.... There's no thread intended to tell you how to design, but what I'm about to say has been said before. Rather than linking backwards in time, let me paraphrase myself and others from long ago. We begin:
First, I have to say that if you start out at the simplest possible stage of things, then build up from there, your final intent should come together with fewer errors than using what I call the "shotgun" approach. That's where you throw a lot of components at a guitar and shout out "Be a complete circuit!". In my book, that's pretty much the definition of how to ask for a miracle. Not the best use of one's time, as you might guess.
Instead, break it down to parts and pieces you can handle. I'll give an example:
You observe a favorite player who is getting Sound X. You want to duplicate that sound. Fine. You investigate what the player uses for equipment. Let's skip everything else and just focus on the guitar. Said guitar has 3 pickups, two switches, and nothing else (visible). You set out to design how you can produce Sound X with the same components.
Keeping this discussion simple, you ask around the webs, and find out that he/she has phase reversal on that extra switch. Easy, you say. And it is indeed easy.... if you've already done this a thousand times before. But if you're new to the game..... Oh boy.
At this point, one can, and should, start with a simple, bone-stock diagram for 3 pickups and a standard selector switch. Technically speaking, this isn't the most simple starting point possible (that would be just one pickup, no switching involved at all), but it is a known good, time tested circuit, universally accepted throughout all of guitardom. Good, let's go on.
To get phase reversal, we need only determine which pickups are out of phase with each other in order to get Sound x. Asking around again, we learn that it's the two outer pups (meaning, not the Mid pup in combination with something else). And when we eliminate that middle pup, we are left with choosing which of the remainders do we attach to the phase-reversal switch - Bridge or Neck. At this point, we must realize that the phase reversal switch will also affect the tone when selected, if we use the Neck (or the Bridge) pup with the Mid pickup. Now we need to decide which way we want to go, yes?
And having made that decision, we commence to hooking things up as desired. Time for a checklist:
1) We've made a diagram according to our desires, check;
2) We've posted it to The NutzHouse for peer-review, check;
3) It passed with flying colors, check;
4) All that's left is to keep in mind which end of the soldering iron we don't want to pick up with our fingers - double check!
Truly, it was that easy. I broke the problem down to the simplest steps possible (although I did take a shortcut with that universally-proven starting diagram), then built up from there. And in the doing of it all, I merely applied logic (or my version of it, at any rate!). Making decisions based on what I know, or what I want, or on some other criterion that makes sense to me at the moment, that's what logic is all about. But just as important, I (hopefully) use the same logic that is understandable to all the other Nutz, so as to have a meangingful discussion. My desires may not comport with theirs, but at least we all understand each other in terms of how to accomplish those desires, amiright.
To put it another way, nearly everything you've ever seen here in The NutzHouse is/was a logic problem. Sometimes there are real-world physical limitations, but that doesn't negate the application of logic to finding a solution, does it.
Now, are you ready to start designing your own circuitry?
sumgai
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Post by reTrEaD on Dec 5, 2016 15:48:34 GMT -5
I would love to know if there is a thread that details how you EE's go about designing a setup like I have requested. I need all these visuals to wrap my head around the connections and functions. Ange, I'm not sure how many degreed EEs are currently posting in the NutzHouse. I know the late ChrisK was one. iirc, JohnH has a sheepskin in ME or Structural Engineering. But it really doesn't require and EE to design successful guitar switching. Just a basic understanding of how switches work and a recognition that poles are precious and should be assigned judiciously. I recently posted Part-1 of a wiring design tutorial. Part-2 will be posted today or tomorrow. Part-3 will include a version that's a close relative of the design you'll be using. You might like to take the full tour so see how we got there. It's currently in this forum but the more I think about it, the more I think it actually belongs in the Design Modules subforum. I'm not sure that your most recent drawing is exactly right. It all depends on where the neck and tail are in relationship to your view of the switch. To help, I've copied 1/5 of your picture of a superswitch and drawn in the connections that will be made in that position of the lever. Unfortunately an Angry Bear seems to be blocking attachments at the present time so I'll try to post that later.
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Post by newey on Dec 5, 2016 22:40:31 GMT -5
RT said: This should be printed on a banner, over all of our respective workbenches . . . Agreed, or perhaps in References. If you are unable to move your own thread (not sure if the forum software allows that or not), let me know and I'll put it in the location of your choosing.
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Post by reTrEaD on Dec 5, 2016 23:30:56 GMT -5
Newey, I have a PM in to JohnH asking his opinion on placement. I don't have the tools to move my thread but since no one has replied to it, I could probably just make a new thread if John thinks it should be elsewhere, then delete the original. That would prevent leaving any junk left behind that we normally see when a thread is moved. Ange, here's the image I altered to help you understand the superswitch a little better. It was already lugs-up as if we were viewing it on a pickguard or control plate ready to have wires soldered to it. The lines indicate the connections that are made on the wafer we can see. The lever is pushed to the right but the connections are made between the poles (lugs at the extreme ends) and the leftmost throw of each pole's group. So the only question is: Which direction is the lever pointed in this picture. If it's toward the neck end of the pickguard or control plate, the connections in the picture are related to the neck pickup. If it's toward the tail end of the pickguard or control plate, then the connections are related to the bridge pickup. Does that help?
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Post by angelodp on Dec 6, 2016 1:32:58 GMT -5
Thanks for that. Yes I have it wired up and it tests out correctly. I am dealing with the darn route on the GF body I got. It's just not correct for the HB's I have. I'll get my router out tomorrow and clean things up and then assemble the guitar. I think its all good. Let ya know soon.
Best Ange
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Post by sumgai on Dec 6, 2016 9:15:09 GMT -5
RT said: This should be printed on a banner, over all of our respective workbenches . . . You do realize that the above is nothing more than a corollary to:
The First Law of GNutz2: "Leave no lug unsoldered."©
(copyright 2010 - The Beta Particle Bombarder)
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Post by reTrEaD on Dec 6, 2016 12:12:29 GMT -5
Not-so-much. To think so is to obscure the greater truth.
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Post by angelodp on Dec 7, 2016 12:56:42 GMT -5
Life is an adventure, and yes POLES ARE PRECIOUS. The drawing I, and you have been working from had some issues. I blame myself for the confusion and thank you all for your intel and solutions. Here is the working diagram that I now have in the finished instrument. Yes, it all works. My problems were twofold. I goofed on wiring my HB, with color coding. I had to go back and use my analog meter to sort that out. The diagram is in fact with the switch viewed from the bottom not the top as thought. Anyhow all's well that ends well. I am indebted to a crazy smart bunch here.
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Post by newey on Dec 7, 2016 16:09:11 GMT -5
Very tidy wiring, too, I might add.
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