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Post by antigua on Dec 27, 2016 4:16:20 GMT -5
www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-Shipping-High-Output-vintage-60-s-style-Alnico-V-rod-staggered-single-coil-guitar-pickup/531493155.html?spm=2114.13010608.0.0.CGPKLo
I haven't put this set in a Strat yet, so this is a purely technical review, but I'll follow up with my impressions about the subjective experience ASAP.
These are "Donlis DS53" vintage style Strat pickups that are reasonably vintage correct, with fiber flat work, AlNiCo pole pieces and cloth hookup wire, thought it feels more like a polyester, and it comes in rainbow colors. All in all, I'd say they "GFS grade", with respect to materials.
This is a "hot set". The loaded peaks of 3.4kHz at the bridge and 3.8kHz for the neck and middle make this set highly comparable to Fender Texas Specials, or Lollar Blackfaces, though the bridge is wound real fat, like a Lollar Special S bridge, or the Lollar "Dirty Blackface" set of three.
This set cost $35, or about $12 per pickup, a comparably GFS set costs about $80, so we're talking a fraction of a fraction of the cost of typical AlNiCo Strat pickups. So if you're in the market for Lollar Blackface, or any of those "Texas Blues" sets from the numerous boutique brands, it can't hurt to try spending $35 before dropping a whole $280 on the usual domestic recommendations.
Donlis DS53 Bridge
DC Resistance: 7.30K
Inductance: 3.473H
Calculated C: 90pF (100-10)
Coil width: 0.6240"
Resonant Peak: dV: 15.6dB f: 8.55kHz (black)
Loaded (200k & 470pF): dV: 5.9dB f: 3.40kHz (red)
Donlis DS53 Middle
DC Resistance: 6.52K
Inductance: 2.803H
Calculated C: 93pF (103-10)
Coil width: 0.5820"
Resonant Peak: dV: 14.8dB f: 9.37kHz (green)
Loaded (200k & 470pF): dV: 6.5dB f: 3.81kHz (gray)
Donlis DS53 Neck
DC Resistance: 6.50K
Inductance: 2.827H
Calculated C: 92pF (102-10)
Coil width: 0.5965"
Resonant Peak: dV: 15.4dB f: 9.37kHz (pink)
Loaded (200k & 470pF): dV: 6.3dB f: 3.85kHz (black)
Pole piece flux density: 1150-1250G; featuring a more dramatic bevel, see pics
Bode plot: 
My measured specs are close enough to the Donlis' published specs, which is a great thing, it shows consistency in their product. It's quite surprising to have pickups be so cheap and assure this level of quality.
The capacitance is remarkably low at ~90pF, and the coils are on the fat side, measuring near 0.6" in width. Fender's pickups mostly measure 0.5", and have capacitances nearer to 130pF, so it seems to be the case that when Strat pickups are consciously wound more loosely, or with a scatter, you end up with about 40pF less capacitance, which helps a pickup remain bright sounding, despite a longer guitar cable. Low capacitance is one of the major selling points of the boutiques, and here's a set that has exactly that, at about an eighth of the cost.
The pole pieces measure high strength at 1150 to 1250 Gauss, whereas 1050G is typical for alnico 5. I suspect this is because the chamfer around the top of the pole piece is so dramatic, as seen in the pictures. The magnetic strength is the weakest in the center, and becomes stronger towards the edge, so as the edge draws nearer to the center, so does the flux density. You can see in the pictures below that the sharp top of the pole piece measures 1273G, while the flat bottom of the same magnet measures only 942G. This would mean that the guitar string is magnetically charged with a bit stronger and more narrow focus. I'm not sure what tonal consequences this might have. Otherwise, the ratio of inductance to DC resistance, and the Q factors of the pickups, show that the AlNiCo 5 behaves as expected as a core material, so they are of good quality.You can also see in the picture below that the bridge, middle, neck designations have been written in by a human's hand - a nice touch, usually only found on the boutiquiest of pickups.
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Post by antigua on Jun 10, 2017 15:37:27 GMT -5
I just saw that there's an acknowledgement of this thread on the Donlis aliexpress store:  |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2017 9:59:58 GMT -5
Their casing reminds me of some chinese pups that came with the body in my long gone partscaster. They were the sweetest strat pups I had ever listened too. I had tested many expensive and cheap pups back in the day (cheap rails, dimarzio HS-3's, dimarzio superDist, etc). The chinese SC ones had the best sound, especially the neck pup. Much much better than anything I had heard in the neck.
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Post by newey on Jun 15, 2017 20:27:28 GMT -5
It's a bit odd, though. The text doesn't link to Antigua's favorable review, but to the page to buy the pickups. But it is a bit of cred for Antigua- good work!  |
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Post by antigua on Jun 16, 2017 1:53:57 GMT -5
It's a bit odd, though. The text doesn't link to Antigua's favorable review, but to the page to buy the pickups. But it is a bit of cred for Antigua- good work! I don't know if they can see referrers, but there's a good chance they get some traffic/purchases by way of the review. |
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Post by antigua on Jun 16, 2017 1:58:01 GMT -5
Their casing reminds me of some chinese pups that came with the body in my long gone partscaster. They were the sweetest strat pups I had ever listened too. I had tested many expensive and cheap pups back in the day (cheap rails, dimarzio HS-3's, dimarzio superDist, etc). The chinese SC ones had the best sound, especially the neck pup. Much much better than anything I had heard in the neck. This particular set has really good values and attributes. Slightly hotter wind, AlNiCo 5 poles, they really are like dirt cheap Lollar Blackface pickups. They tend more towards the piano-Strat tone, not so much the quack-Strat tone. A few years ago, someone would buy Joyo pedals, paint them funny colors and sell them for hundreds of dollars, claiming he hand wired them in his basement. This are close enough to boutique that the same thing could happen here, they could be passed off as home wound. That's not to say anyone should, it's to say that if you can't tell the difference between a $10 pickup and a $100 pickup, why spend the $100? |
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Post by stamp on Nov 27, 2017 10:13:19 GMT -5
Hi, Antigua ! Grear Analysis and pickups ! I want to buy that Donlis DS53 or DS-51.
How did you measured these frequency responces ?
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Post by antigua on Nov 27, 2017 14:47:30 GMT -5
Hi, Antigua ! Grear Analysis and pickups ! I want to buy that Donlis DS53 or DS-51. How did you measured these frequency responces ? Thanks! The process is detailed here guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/7723/measuring-electrical-properties-guitar-pickups . Basically you take a USB oscilloscope that supports the creation of bode plots, of which there are only a few on the market, and then you feed voltage into the pickup and plot how much voltage you get back out. |
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Post by pablogilberto on Jul 13, 2019 11:13:52 GMT -5
Hi antigua! I have some questions. I hope you can help. 1. I’m just wondering how the frequency response of “bad sounding” or poorly made pickups will look like? What is the main difference of “good sounding” pickups in terms of the frequency response? What parameters should I look at? 2. In your experience, what do you think are the factors which affects the performance (based on frequency response) of pickups in terms of build quality like materials, coil wires used, pattern of winding etc? Have you noticed the main difference (in terms of build quality) between “good sounding” and “bad sounding” pickups which may affect their frequency response? Thank you so much! |
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Post by antigua on Jul 13, 2019 19:45:26 GMT -5
Hi antigua ! I have some questions. I hope you can help. 1. I’m just wondering how the frequency response of “bad sounding” or poorly made pickups will look like? What is the main difference of “good sounding” pickups in terms of the frequency response? What parameters should I look at? 2. In your experience, what do you think are the factors which affects the performance (based on frequency response) of pickups in terms of build quality like materials, coil wires used, pattern of winding etc? Have you noticed the main difference (in terms of build quality) between “good sounding” and “bad sounding” pickups which may affect their frequency response? Thank you so much! There's not really a such thing as a bad sounding pickup, but something that tends to be undesirable about cheaply made pickups is that they use metal parts with a high conductivity. When the alternating magnetic field of the coil intersects with the conductive material, eddy currents form in the metal, which produces an opposing magnetic field. This manifests as a load that increases with frequency. Increased load with frequency means loss of treble, and so those cheaply made pickups can sound muffled, or at least lack the resonant bite of a better made vintage style pickup. This graph shows progressive loss of resonance due to eddy currents:  Nickel silver is better, but also slightly more expensive, than brass. The way the coil is wound doesn't matter too much. A tightly wound coil seems to yield a higher capacitance, which reduces the peak frequency a little. Increasing the inductance also reduces the peak frequency, but in general, higher inductance will mean greater output, because more turns of wire or a higher permeability in the core will both increase inductance and voltage output. Thats why the high output pickups on the market also have a high inductance. But an increase in capacitance is not associated with any significant benefits. I think pickups are already made as well as they can be made, for the most part, in terms of putting out a good signal without the need for a pre-amp. One way they could innovate is to make coils flatter, like a Jazzmaster pickup, but made a lot smaller, to fit a Stratocaster, which if made thin enough, could fit between the strings and the body of the guitar without requiring a route. Or the pickup could be hidden under the pick guard for a clean look. Not only are flatter coils more space efficient, but they produce more output, all other things being equal, because a the turns of wire are collectively closer to the guitar strings than a taller pickup with its taller coil. |
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Post by pablogilberto on Aug 8, 2019 4:01:01 GMT -5
Thank you, Antigua!
Learned a lot from this!
Regarding coil winding...
What if I have a 42AWG and wound 8000 turns which resulted to 6k ohms of DCR and an inductance of 2.5H, what are the things that I can do to get a higher/lower values for inductance (given the same 42AWG wire with 8000 turns)?
I believe that the DCR won’t be affected since I still have the same wire length (8000 turns of 42AWG).
I’m guessing that the way I wound (scatter or not, tight or loose) will have an effect on the inductance? Is this correct or not?
If yes, how much change in inductance can I expect?
Thank you!
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Post by stratotarts on Aug 8, 2019 18:22:00 GMT -5
Thank you, Antigua! Learned a lot from this! Regarding coil winding... What if I have a 42AWG and wound 8000 turns which resulted to 6k ohms of DCR and an inductance of 2.5H, what are the things that I can do to get a higher/lower values for inductance (given the same 42AWG wire with 8000 turns)? I believe that the DCR won’t be affected since I still have the same wire length (8000 turns of 42AWG). I’m guessing that the way I wound (scatter or not, tight or loose) will have an effect on the inductance? Is this correct or not? If yes, how much change in inductance can I expect? Thank you! Given a fixed turns count, the diameter of the coil is about the only way in which the winding style can influence inductance. A tight coil will be marginally smaller, and therefore have a slightly lower inductance. But the difference is probably not even measureable. Also given a fixed mechanical design, using the same materials in every case, the wind count is actually the main influence on the inductance value. In fact, the wire diameter doesn't even have much influence there. 8000 turns of #42 will be very close to 8000 turns of #43. That small difference exists for the same reason - the coil diameter will be different.
You can see this going on with some Strat sets - they all measure almost identical inductance! Why? Because they are machine wound and the machine puts a precise number of turns on the coil. It's the easiest production method for controlling the coil specs. In this pickup set you can see it with the middle and neck pickup measurements. The bridge is intentionally made different with a higher wind count.
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Post by antigua on Aug 11, 2019 7:34:38 GMT -5
Thank you, Antigua! Learned a lot from this! Regarding coil winding... What if I have a 42AWG and wound 8000 turns which resulted to 6k ohms of DCR and an inductance of 2.5H, what are the things that I can do to get a higher/lower values for inductance (given the same 42AWG wire with 8000 turns)? I believe that the DCR won’t be affected since I still have the same wire length (8000 turns of 42AWG). I’m guessing that the way I wound (scatter or not, tight or loose) will have an effect on the inductance? Is this correct or not? If yes, how much change in inductance can I expect? Thank you! The wire will stretch a bit if you hand tension the coil, so you will still get a variation in DC resistance with 8k turns. When coil inductance is calculated based on a turn count and coil area, the model assumes the coil with turns of wire that are laid neatly side by side, but all guitar coils have some degree of "scatter", even machine wound coils, because the wire is so much thinner than the coil former / bobbin, the mutual inductance between the turns of wire is therefore not ideal, so the inductance will be slightly less than would be predicted by an ideal model. Since machine wound pickups tend to have the same behavior for every pickup they make, they come out very consistent, even when non ideal. Hand tensioned and guided coils have a greater degree of variation in terms of their non-ideality. In this test guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/7933/coil-tension-electrical-values-experiment I saw about 100mH +/- variance in 8k turn Strat pickups that I had hand guided and tensioned, but I've tested a lot of machine wound production Strat pickups that are all to within 10mH of one another, so that gives a clue as to the differences that can be expected between machine and hand wound coils. With steel core pickups, the difference will be smaller, since the higher permeability core will become a more dominant contributing factor in the resulting inductance, but historically, the PAF and P-90 are the most prominent steel core pickups, and both have always been machine wound, while Strat pickups had been hand guided and tensioned, and have used AlNiCo cores. |
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Post by pablogilberto on Dec 26, 2019 9:25:43 GMT -5
Hi antigua ! I have some questions. I hope you can help. 1. I’m just wondering how the frequency response of “bad sounding” or poorly made pickups will look like? What is the main difference of “good sounding” pickups in terms of the frequency response? What parameters should I look at? 2. In your experience, what do you think are the factors which affects the performance (based on frequency response) of pickups in terms of build quality like materials, coil wires used, pattern of winding etc? Have you noticed the main difference (in terms of build quality) between “good sounding” and “bad sounding” pickups which may affect their frequency response? Thank you so much! There's not really a such thing as a bad sounding pickup, but something that tends to be undesirable about cheaply made pickups is that they use metal parts with a high conductivity. When the alternating magnetic field of the coil intersects with the conductive material, eddy currents form in the metal, which produces an opposing magnetic field. This manifests as a load that increases with frequency. Increased load with frequency means loss of treble, and so those cheaply made pickups can sound muffled, or at least lack the resonant bite of a better made vintage style pickup. This graph shows progressive loss of resonance due to eddy currents: Nickel silver is better, but also slightly more expensive, than brass. The way the coil is wound doesn't matter too much. A tightly wound coil seems to yield a higher capacitance, which reduces the peak frequency a little. Increasing the inductance also reduces the peak frequency, but in general, higher inductance will mean greater output, because more turns of wire or a higher permeability in the core will both increase inductance and voltage output. Thats why the high output pickups on the market also have a high inductance. But an increase in capacitance is not associated with any significant benefits. I think pickups are already made as well as they can be made, for the most part, in terms of putting out a good signal without the need for a pre-amp. One way they could innovate is to make coils flatter, like a Jazzmaster pickup, but made a lot smaller, to fit a Stratocaster, which if made thin enough, could fit between the strings and the body of the guitar without requiring a route. Or the pickup could be hidden under the pick guard for a clean look. Not only are flatter coils more space efficient, but they produce more output, all other things being equal, because a the turns of wire are collectively closer to the guitar strings than a taller pickup with its taller coil. Hi antigua"There's not really a such thing as a bad sounding pickup, but something that tends to be undesirable about cheaply made pickups is that they use metal parts with a high conductivity." In this statement, you mean the metal parts in humbucker pickups right? If metal parts with high conductivity are not desirable, why don't we just use plastic or fiber for this? Will this eliminate the effect of Eddy current? Or am I missing something? Thank you! |
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Post by antigua on Dec 26, 2019 16:43:25 GMT -5
Hi antigua "There's not really a such thing as a bad sounding pickup, but something that tends to be undesirable about cheaply made pickups is that they use metal parts with a high conductivity." In this statement, you mean the metal parts in humbucker pickups right? If metal parts with high conductivity are not desirable, why don't we just use plastic or fiber for this? Will this eliminate the effect of Eddy current? Or am I missing something? Thank you! With humbuckers and P-90's, players are used to the sound of a low Q factor, but with Fender single coils, people come to expect a bite in the high end that owes to a modest Q factor. The cheap Strat pickups don't sound bad in general, but they don't match with vintage expectations. A cheap ceramic magnet Strat pickup could maintain a high Q factor if it had ferrite pole pieces instead of steel, but the people make cheap pickups don't really care about how authentic they sound. There's now a set of three AlNiCo Strat pickups on Amazon for $20 as "Belcat" guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/8777/belcat-bs-01wh-analysis-review , so cheap that there's hardly any reason anymore to devote thought to making a cheap steel or ferrite pickup sound like an AlNiCo pickup. |
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Post by frets on Dec 26, 2019 18:20:07 GMT -5
I have a set of DS53’s in an import Strat. I put them in three years ago just on a whim. I also bought a DHN53, Donlis’ DHN53 Alinco V Nickel Backed Humbucker and have that installed in a Yamaha Pacifica. The DS53’s remind me of SD’s Antiquity pups. From a mere Qualitative perspective, I find the DS53’s to be an outstanding set of pickups. They’ve doubled in price since I’ve purchased mine. Likewise, the DHN53 Humbucker is exceptional. It can still be purchased for around $20.
If you have a partscaster or import, the DS53’s are a major upgrade for less than $50 bucks. Look on AliExpress if you want to buy a set.
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Post by pablogilberto on Jan 14, 2020 9:12:18 GMT -5
These are "Donlis DS53" vintage style Strat pickups that are reasonably vintage correct, with fiber flat work, AlNiCo pole pieces and cloth hookup wire, thought it feels more like a polyester, and it comes in rainbow colors. All in all, I'd say they "GFS grade", with respect to materials.
This is a "hot set". The loaded peaks of 3.4kHz at the bridge and 3.8kHz for the neck and middle make this set highly comparable to Fender Texas Specials, or Lollar Blackfaces, though the bridge is wound real fat, like a Lollar Special S bridge, or the Lollar "Dirty Blackface" set of three.
1. What do you mean by vintage correct? What is the correct vintage specs of a strat pickup when it comes to magnets, polepiece spacing and height? 2. How do we separate "hot pickups" from low output pickups? Thanks |
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Post by antigua on Jan 14, 2020 14:56:52 GMT -5
These are "Donlis DS53" vintage style Strat pickups that are reasonably vintage correct, with fiber flat work, AlNiCo pole pieces and cloth hookup wire, thought it feels more like a polyester, and it comes in rainbow colors. All in all, I'd say they "GFS grade", with respect to materials.
This is a "hot set". The loaded peaks of 3.4kHz at the bridge and 3.8kHz for the neck and middle make this set highly comparable to Fender Texas Specials, or Lollar Blackfaces, though the bridge is wound real fat, like a Lollar Special S bridge, or the Lollar "Dirty Blackface" set of three.
1. What do you mean by vintage correct? What is the correct vintage specs of a strat pickup when it comes to magnets, polepiece spacing and height? 2. How do we separate "hot pickups" from low output pickups? Thanks Vintage correct means cloth hookup wire, black or gray bobbins made of forbon instead of molded plastic, AlNiCo 5 pole pieces, pole piece stagger that matches vintage Strats, beveled pole pieces, and wax potting. Most of these things dont affect the sound, they're just for their own sake. "Hot pickup" is arbitrary, but most vintage Strat pickups are about 2.5 henries, so if it's 3 henries or greater, it becomes noticeably darker. The output voltage doesn't increase significantly until the inductance is nearly double. That's why early "hot" Strat pickups such as the SSL-3 or the HS-1 have a significant inductance, over five henries. Most modern "hot" Strat pickups are closer to 3 to 4 henries, and are just intended to sound a little darker, like a Telecaster, but dont produce substantially more voltage. |
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Post by pablogilberto on Jan 15, 2020 3:58:09 GMT -5
1. What do you mean by vintage correct? What is the correct vintage specs of a strat pickup when it comes to magnets, polepiece spacing and height? 2. How do we separate "hot pickups" from low output pickups? Thanks Vintage correct means cloth hookup wire, black or gray bobbins made of forbon instead of molded plastic, AlNiCo 5 pole pieces, pole piece stagger that matches vintage Strats, beveled pole pieces, and wax potting. Most of these things dont affect the sound, they're just for their own sake. "Hot pickup" is arbitrary, but most vintage Strat pickups are about 2.5 henries, so if it's 3 henries or greater, it becomes noticeably darker. The output voltage doesn't increase significantly until the inductance is nearly double. That's why early "hot" Strat pickups such as the SSL-3 or the HS-1 have a significant inductance, over five henries. Most modern "hot" Strat pickups are closer to 3 to 4 henries, and are just intended to sound a little darker, like a Telecaster, but dont produce substantially more voltage. Thanks for this info! What about the polepiece spacing? Does Vintage use 52mm spacing for Neck, Mid and Bridge? or Neck 50mm, Mid 50mm, Bridge 52mm? So it's vintage versus "hot" strat pickups. Wherein vintage is around 2.5H and hot is 3H or greater. Which means, vintage are bright, and "hot" pickups are dark. Vintage have higher resonant freq compared to "hot" pickups. Did I understand it correctly? |
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Post by antigua on Jan 22, 2020 11:16:07 GMT -5
Vintage correct means cloth hookup wire, black or gray bobbins made of forbon instead of molded plastic, AlNiCo 5 pole pieces, pole piece stagger that matches vintage Strats, beveled pole pieces, and wax potting. Most of these things dont affect the sound, they're just for their own sake. "Hot pickup" is arbitrary, but most vintage Strat pickups are about 2.5 henries, so if it's 3 henries or greater, it becomes noticeably darker. The output voltage doesn't increase significantly until the inductance is nearly double. That's why early "hot" Strat pickups such as the SSL-3 or the HS-1 have a significant inductance, over five henries. Most modern "hot" Strat pickups are closer to 3 to 4 henries, and are just intended to sound a little darker, like a Telecaster, but dont produce substantially more voltage. Thanks for this info! What about the polepiece spacing? Does Vintage use 52mm spacing for Neck, Mid and Bridge? or Neck 50mm, Mid 50mm, Bridge 52mm? So it's vintage versus "hot" strat pickups. Wherein vintage is around 2.5H and hot is 3H or greater. Which means, vintage are bright, and "hot" pickups are dark. Vintage have higher resonant freq compared to "hot" pickups. Did I understand it correctly? Vintage was 52mm all the way across. The original Strat pickups were three of a kind, not intentionally made different in any way. You understand the distinction between "hot" and "vintage" correctly. Even though the "hot" pickups sold on the market often do not produce audibly higher output voltage, the lack of treble content of those "hot" pickups causes them to produce a smoother sound when used in an overdrive context. They sound "thicker" and "smoother" even though the output is not higher. |
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