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Post by jimplaysguitar on Dec 28, 2005 23:56:34 GMT -5
Ok, I drew this.. One of Deaf Eddie's ideas, but altered a little, and made neater, IMO. Still confusing, but neater. ;D And I have some questions. Position 2 is both pickups in series, I know that should work. With the coil split pulled, it should leave the north coil of the neck and the south coil of the bridge, right? (bridge is at the bottom) Would this affect position 2? (which is now two singles in series) Because the bridge pickup's signal is no longer being sent to ground, but back to hot? Jim
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Post by eljib on Dec 29, 2005 14:57:06 GMT -5
I wish I could answer your question, but I can't, so I'll ask some to you:
1:Who is Deaf Eddie?
2:What are the switching options here? I can't even read your beautiful drawing, let alone a complicated schematic. I'm just slow.
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Post by Mini-Strat_Maine on Dec 29, 2005 15:08:52 GMT -5
I wish I could answer your question, but I can't, so I'll ask some to you: 1:Who is Deaf Eddie? What, you never heard of Deaf Eddie, Guitar Whacko? ( www.deaf-eddie.net) Eddie (Emmett Brown) is a pretty cool guy. Don't feel like the Lone Ranger; I can't read it, either. If I'm ever going to learn to read them, though, I want it to be from ones like that. Even if I have no idea what does what, it very clearly shows what goes where. Even a maladroit like me would find it a very useful tool for doing a mod.
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Post by jimplaysguitar on Dec 29, 2005 16:17:33 GMT -5
Lol, the switching options are: 1: Neck 2: Neck and Bridge in series 3: Neck and Bridge parallel 4: Neck and Bridge in series/out of phase 5: Bridge I'm not sure how those options would change with the push-pull pulled Jim
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Post by eljib on Dec 29, 2005 16:39:37 GMT -5
I'm anxious to find out. But it shouldn't be too long. This sort of question is like the "Bat signal" for guys like John H, Wolf, and Unklmickey (among others).
In this drawing does the push/pull cut a coil from both pups? Could it be made with a second push/pull to use the previously cut coils instead? Neck/bridge inside coils in parallel could be strat-ish, while position 4 using outside coils would get the most out of the phasing option...I think.
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Post by jimplaysguitar on Dec 29, 2005 17:23:15 GMT -5
I believe the push-pull would leave the two inside coils on. I know nothing about in/out of phase, I've never really tried it. The main options i would like are Neck, Bridge, both in series, both parallel, and one coil from each pickup parallel, like a Tele kinda thing. The phase is just an extra option to play with.
Anyway, what is this new "Karma" thing?
Jim
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Post by Mini-Strat_Maine on Dec 29, 2005 17:45:37 GMT -5
"Bat signal." Hee, hee! I believe the push-pull would leave the two inside coils on. I know nothing about in/out of phase, I've never really tried it. The main options i would like are Neck, Bridge, both in series, both parallel, and one coil from each pickup parallel, like a Tele kinda thing. The phase is just an extra option to play with. Way cool. I'm hoping my eventual LP project will work out so that any combination can be selected by the rotary switch (or whatever I end up using) regardless of what either pup is set for. You'd have to know what every switch was set for ("It's 11:00 p.m.; do you know where your switches are?"), but it could be pretty neat if it works out. I'm still not sure about phasing one pup against itself; that would be at the bottom of my "Givens and Druthers" list. I dunno, either. I didn't notice it until you mentioned it, and I went looking to see what you were referring to. I hope it's good, since I have one. Argh! Now I've got that song "Karma Chameleon" stuck in my head!
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Post by jimplaysguitar on Dec 29, 2005 18:03:47 GMT -5
Way cool. I'm hoping my eventual LP project will work out so that any combination can be selected by the rotary switch I was thinking about a LP myself, maybe something from Warmoth, with a rotary switch in place of that super switch, master tone and two volumes. You idea stealer you. Hehehe. ;D The Phase thing can stay if it wants, I have all my other desired options, if I never use it, who cares? ;D I want one! Oh yeah, and.. I love that song ;D I've been promoted to Junior Member, YAY! Jim
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Post by JohnH on Dec 29, 2005 18:18:25 GMT -5
That is a nice diagram. how did you draw it? It would also be good if you could identify the pole connections on that Superswitch (eg colour them or something). If you can do that, then we can trace what it does.
John
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Post by jimplaysguitar on Dec 29, 2005 19:34:41 GMT -5
I just stole components from GuitarElectronics and used good ol' MS Paint, lol. So I did a little coloring. I know Christmas is over, and it's a little late for decorations, but here it is... I've tried to make things easier to understand. To any of you that are color blind, I'm sorry ;D Here goes... The red terminals are are the common, as most of you know. the other's are: Blue - 1. Neck alone. Pink - 2. Neck and Bridge in series. Orange - 3. Neck and Bridge parallel. Green - 4. Neck and Bridge series/out of phase. Brown - 5. Bridge alone. As most of us know, the position on the switch decides which terminal is connected to the common (red) terminal. For example: When the switch is in position 1, the blue terminal is connected to the common (red) on that pole. And in position 2, the pink is connected to common (red), and so on. I hope you understand that. Just follow the circuit from the input jack. ;D
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Post by eljib on Dec 29, 2005 19:36:54 GMT -5
You get karma for that!
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Post by JohnH on Dec 29, 2005 22:16:45 GMT -5
Great - those colours make it much easier. Personally, i find that to work out what is happening, I have to take a wiring diagram like that and convert it to a schematic. Heres what I think is happening:
With the push/pull in, I agree with those settings, although I can't see a need for the top right switch section. I think it would work OK with just three of those four poles, and that 4th section replaced with all 5 terminals connected. Not a very important comment since you get four poles anyway, but I think it is worth minimising the number of switch contacts in the signal path.
With the push/pull out, it seems to do some odd things, I make it that you get:
1. Neck sc and Bridge sc in parallel 2. Bridge sc only 3. same as 1 4. same as 2 5. same as 2
I would be very pleased if someone else traces this and corrects me if I have made a mistake - which is entirely possible.
However - that being said, I think you are inches away from a kick-butt design! I think the ideal is that when you pull the switch, you get exactly the same options as with the swtch in, but done with single coils. And with a bit of smarts, all the combo settings, including the single coils in series out of phase can be hum cancelling. That would be a good design!
If you like that idea let me know, I think I could mark up the diagram to show what Im on about.
John
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Post by jimplaysguitar on Dec 29, 2005 22:25:48 GMT -5
Yes, I'd like the same options with the p-p pulled, but with singles, but i have no clue how. If you know, John, feel free to show me But keep in mind, this is for a future project. Far, far into the future, due to lack of funds, lol. Thanks Jim
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Post by eljib on Dec 30, 2005 0:00:02 GMT -5
I don't think we should allow this one to die. I, too, suffer from similar lack of funds but my project may not be that far off. And I agree with John. Although I imagined this morphing into something else, this one would be very usefull.
-Aaron
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Post by JohnH on Dec 30, 2005 0:53:32 GMT -5
Im thinking this should do it: The key thing is that the bridge pickup gets its central connection between coils shorted to ground when you pull the coil cut switch, but the neck pup gets shorted either to ground or to the appropriate connection between series connected pups. It uses the 4th part of the Superswitch to direct this, which I reckoned was not earning its keep before. Note that the two pups have their coils wired in a different order, I have put on the wire colour codes, per Seymour Duncan. That way, for the in phase combos, you cut to a south and a north coil respectively, but in the out-of-phase, you cut to two similar coils, which being out-of-phase, will hum-cancel. Not tested of course - but worth a try. John
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Post by wolf on Dec 30, 2005 1:27:53 GMT -5
And this thread won't die !! As eljib said, this is like the "Bat Signal" to me. Here's something I don't think I've ever discussed here:
Wire Colors are based on the DiMarzio system.
In the conventional system wiring, the coil with the red and black wires remains active during "coil-cut". In the alternative wiring, the coil with the green and gray wires remains active. Big deal right? (It makes a small difference if this is a bridge pickup, higher treble if the "lower" coil remains active.) However, if you have a neck pickup with the conventional wiring and a bridge pickup with the alternative wiring then when BOTH coils are cut you have a humbucker that spans from the neck to the bridge. Yes, it is humbucking because the active coils have reverse wiring and reverse polarity, respective to each other. If you wire the neck pickup with the alternative scheme and the bridge pickup in the conventional way, then the humbucker "spans" from the bottom coil of the neck pickup to the top coil of the bridge pickup. Incidentally, I sometimes call the alternative wiring "inside-out" wiring. Notice that the humbucking pickups are still in phase with themselves AND in phase with each other. I think someone asked a question about something similar because his guitar (an Ibanez?) had a similar wiring scheme. Personally, I have wired a few guitars like this and to me it DOESN'T open up a whole new Universe of tonal possibilities, DOESN'T turn you into a guitar God and DOESN'T make your guitar sound like a "one-of-kind" deluxe extra special music machine. To make a long story short - I don't think it is worth the extra effort. I don't know - maybe "deaf-eddie" thinks it's the ultimate guitar wiring on the planet. Of course the choice is up to you. Good luck. ****************************** By the way John H, what wiring scheme is that based on? It doesn't look like DiMarzio or Seymour Duncan. And Jimmy - GREAT work on the diagram. MS Paint is ÐAMNEÐ good. The heck with PhotoShop.
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Post by JohnH on Dec 30, 2005 1:58:22 GMT -5
Thanks Wolf - just checking you were watching! the colours are intended to be SD and I have my black and white mixed up. I'll repost that diagram later
On your diagram - are you sure that those two wirings are not out of phase for sound? On my post (assuming I correct it!) the two coils are swapped in relative position on the diagram between pups, but not changed in phase direction., ie the 'hotter' side of each coil remains so.
John
EDIT - have now fixed the colour codes on my addition to Jimmys diagram - see my previous post.
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Post by wolf on Dec 30, 2005 2:53:21 GMT -5
Hi John H
The coils are in phase. What might be confusing you, is that in both drawings, the humbucking coils are identically arranged. I know some sites show the "screw coils" at the top on the neck pickup and at the bottom of the bridge pickup. I do NOT do that. (I notice that "Jimmy Plays Guitar" does the same thing I do). So, I hope that helps you a little.
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Post by JohnH on Dec 30, 2005 7:05:41 GMT -5
Wolf - what is confusing me is your diagram. On the alternative wiring, which of the four pup wires is grounded? I had assumed it was the lower one, to match the 'conventional' diagram (white in the alternative), in which case the active coil in the red/black in both wirings and they are out of phase. But is it in fact the top (black) wire that you would ground? If so then I can see that it all works and is equivalent to what I was suggesting for Jimmys design.
I think it is a neat idea - I came across it when I found it built into my old '76 Shergold. I think it is the right thing to do with coil cuts on an HH design. As you say, it doesnt change the sound, but we may as well get rid of as much hum as possible.
John
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Post by jimplaysguitar on Dec 30, 2005 10:16:36 GMT -5
So the pickup is still wired in series, but the current goes through the south coil first? And when splitted (to ground) the south coil is active?
So this way, both pickups can be splitted (to ground) but still be hum cancelling?
Jim
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Post by bam on Dec 30, 2005 12:14:45 GMT -5
.. don't confuse it. basically it's just a wiring that reverses the North and South, but not the magnets. The switching/coil tapping will be the same - electronically - and it WILL alter your tone A BIT (like wolf said, it doen't make much difference) - like what happens when you swap the pickup's North and South physically.
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Post by wolf on Dec 30, 2005 16:56:09 GMT -5
John H The black wire in the bridge humbucker now goes to ground. Jim You are correct. When using both coils in coil cut mode, they will be hum cancelling. bam Your explanation is also correct.
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Post by jimplaysguitar on Dec 30, 2005 18:14:19 GMT -5
I know some sites show the "screw coils" at the top on the neck pickup and at the bottom of the bridge pickup. Isn't that just the neck pickup turned around? Say like on a Les Paul, just to make the metal covers all symetrical? lol. Is that wired different or just turned round? And some questions for you John. On your diagram, it looks like when in position 2 (both in series) that when the coils are split, the red and white from the neck pickup are routed back to hot? Which would leave the screw coil working? So there would be two south coils in series? Not hum cancelling? Am i right? Is that the only way two singles in series will work? Jim
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Post by JohnH on Dec 30, 2005 19:20:05 GMT -5
Its easy to get this stuff mixed up (and I often do). Im sure the theory is fine. the intention is, in position 2, with coil cut:
at the neck pup, the red gets shorted to green, leaving the black/white coil active
at the bridge pup. the black gets shorted to ground, which is where the white is also connected, so leaving the red/green coil active.
One black/white coil and one red/green coil add up to humbucking. (Seymour Duncan colours).
If there is a gap in the logic - let me know!
John
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