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Post by merseymale on Mar 11, 2017 11:50:26 GMT -5
Hello,
I'm hoping someone can help as I've reached a bit of a block with my custom wiring please?
I've got a SCsized HB at the bridge and a strat style SC at the neck. It's a mustang copy with 2 on off switches.
I installed a previous custom wiring courtesy of a clever design provided by a kind & knowledgeable forum user but I'm wanting to replace it with a less complicated (for me!) to use wiring.
I've come up with 2 different wirings to achieve the same goal but can't quite seem to nail it...
I'm hoping to get a simple (despite a GutBucket style tone) single vol & tone with 2 on/off switches for each PickUp -so far so simple- the problem is that I want the pair of Pots to be Push/Pull types. This is were I come unstuck!
It'd be cool for the bridge 'bucket to remain split (i.e.:SC) & the Tone DPDT to activate a regular phase switching when both PuPs are on but when the Vol pot is pulled ALL the knobs & switches are bypassed and that Bridge PuP is sent directly to the jack, Blower Switch style.
I've managed all these features, separately, in other guitars, with the exception of the Blower Switch making a previously SC pickup go HB at the same time.
Anyone know of any diagrams to post for myself & others to refer to, please?
Thanks in advance!
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Post by sumgai on Mar 11, 2017 12:34:47 GMT -5
mm,
Yes, we can do that, and probably already have... somewhere around here!
But let's reinvent the wheel, shall we? I'd like to start off with a simple diagram of what you currently have, if that's possible. Hand-drawn and scanned in to your 'puter is good enough for our purposes... unless you happen to have mad skillz at Photoshop or somesuch.
But you're correct, in the end, we're really going to do nothing more than assemble various existing modules into your dream machine.
HTH
sumgai
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Post by merseymale on Mar 11, 2017 13:28:57 GMT -5
Thanks Sumgai I'll start drawing now...
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Post by merseymale on Mar 11, 2017 13:40:57 GMT -5
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Post by merseymale on Mar 11, 2017 13:43:44 GMT -5
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Post by merseymale on Mar 11, 2017 13:53:06 GMT -5
PickUps in situ Attachments:
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Post by sumgai on Mar 11, 2017 22:38:08 GMT -5
I know I said that a scanned crayon drawing would be good enough, but for some reason I was expecting a complete, all-in-one image. Perhaps a complete image that can be uploaded to a photo-hosting platform, and then a link posted here - is that possible?
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Post by merseymale on Mar 12, 2017 10:40:57 GMT -5
Not sure how sorry π’
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Post by merseymale on Mar 12, 2017 10:42:46 GMT -5
i don't seem to be able to put any more pix up on here..?!
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Post by merseymale on Mar 12, 2017 10:44:50 GMT -5
Has there been anything like this attempted by any forum members yet & if so can someone explain how they achieved it please? Thank You
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Post by merseymale on Mar 12, 2017 10:52:51 GMT -5
I had previously asked on another forum but was respectively told "I do not believe that a part with the necessary configuration to do what you want is commercially available. It is my belief that you'll need at least two separate switches (one of which could be a pull switch on a pot) to do what you want"
While this may unfortunately be true I really felt that a single Push/Pull Potentiometer would have one side with 3 terminals handling the D.I.bypass & the other reuniting the unused coil to form a HumBucker circuit.... π€
Any further thoughts appreciated
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Post by newey on Mar 12, 2017 11:01:04 GMT -5
Merseymale-
I'm having a little trouble deciphering your desires here. What I understand so far (tell me if I'm wrong . . .):
1) 2 pickups, with a HB at the bridge position.
2) 2 on-off switches per pickup. One obviously turns each pickup on and off, it's not clear to me what the other switch is for.
3) A Push/pull on the tone pot acting as a phase switch.
4) A push/pull on the Volume pot acting as a "blower" switch, bypassing all the pots
Is that right?
Not sure what a "gutbucket" tone control is. Is that the same as a "greasebucket" style control?
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Post by JohnH on Mar 12, 2017 15:36:21 GMT -5
Is it an on/off toggle for each pickup to do on and off, and another for each to coil cut?
Then a push/pull for phase.
And a push/pull for 'Blower', to always force it to full bridge humbucker with no pots or other switches involved?
One volume and one tone?
If so, I was about to respectfully agree with the respectful person on the other forum. Blower switches normally need two poles, one at the output and one at the bridge to fully bypass everything else (sim. to true bypass on a stompbox). Then another would usually be needed to deactivate the coil cut, so too many poles for a push pull.
But, I think there is a way by doing the bridge coil cut differently. So it could be done with a push/pull blower which will also stop the coil cut if it was engaged. The bridge coil cut will work by taking the hot output from either the main hot or the series junction. Thus goes through the bridge on/off then one pole of the blower too. The other blower pole is at the output selecting from volume pot or bridge HB hot.
Phase can be on the neck PU so does not affect the above.
Will sketch a schematic later today after work.
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Post by merseymale on Mar 12, 2017 18:47:39 GMT -5
Merseymale- I'm having a little trouble deciphering your desires here. What I understand so far (tell me if I'm wrong . . .): 1) 2 pickups, with a HB at the bridge position. 2) 2 on-off switches per pickup. One obviously turns each pickup on and off, it's not clear to me what the other switch is for. 3) A Push/pull on the tone pot acting as a phase switch. 4) A push/pull on the Volume pot acting as a "blower" switch, bypassing all the pots Is that right? Not sure what a "gutbucket" tone control is. Is that the same as a "greasebucket" style control? Thanks for your time Newey My intention is to have a more usable -EASILY usable, that is- guitar in a live situation yet don't want to add more Visible controls than expected on a mustang style guitar. 1) yep! 2 pickups, with a Side by Side single sized HB at the bridge position but only ONE coil in operation (so, to all intents & purposes, a guitar with a SC in the neck & a 'SC' at the bridge each with an on/off switch & the possibility of phase switching when both PuPs are on & a master Vol & Tone) 2) not quite... 1 on/off switch per pickup. Each turns it's corresponding pickup on and off but nothing else 3) Yep! a Push/pull on the tone pot acting as a phase switch. 4) yes! A push/pull on the Volume pot acting as a "blower" switch, bypassing all the pots but ALSO turning that Bridge 'Single Coil' into a true Series Hum Bucker SORRY!! yep I mean "greasebucket" style control- DOH!! π
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Post by merseymale on Mar 12, 2017 19:19:57 GMT -5
Is it an on/off toggle for each pickup to do on and off, and another for each to coil cut? Then a push/pull for phase. And a push/pull for 'Blower', to always force it to full bridge humbucker with no pots or other switches involved? One volume and one tone? If so, I was about to respectfully agree with the respectful person on the other forum. Blower switches normally need two poles, one at the output and one at the bridge to fully bypass everything else (sim. to true bypass on a stompbox). Then another would usually be needed to deactivate the coil cut, so too many poles for a push pull. But, I think there is a way by doing the bridge coil cut differently. So it could be done with a push/pull blower which will also stop the coil cut if it was engaged. The bridge coil cut will work by taking the hot output from either the main hot or the series junction. Thus goes through the bridge on/off then one pole of the blower too. The other blower pole is at the output selecting from volume pot or bridge HB hot. Phase can be on the neck PU so does not affect the above. Will sketch a schematic later today after work. Thanks for your time, JohnH! Q)"Is it an on/off toggle for each pickup to do on and off...?" A) YES Q) "...and another for each to coil cut?" A) no. The PickUp at the neck is a regular Single Coil so no Splitting or Tapping required and in effect, the Bridge's split 'Bucker can be considered to be a 'Single Coil' too. Q)"Then a push/pull for phase" A) yep. On the Tone Q)"And a push/pull for 'Blower', to always force it to full bridge humbucker with no pots or other switches involved?" A) exactly Q)"One volume and one tone?" A) Yes You say (respectfully!) that "Blower switches normally need two poles" but I thought that the DPDTs found on most Push/Pull Pots DO, in essence, have 2 poles..? 1 each side? Your allusion to True Bypass pedal switching is a clever notion & makes me very hopeful that this may be the key! I think I understand the main points but I believe (IMHO) that I've tried doing what you suggest but... maybe I'm doing it wrong? Thank you for your offer of doing a Diagram after work. I look forward to it as I think I'll understand a picture better than text!
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Post by newey on Mar 13, 2017 7:36:39 GMT -5
JohnH's point is that you're asking the "blower" switch to do 3 things:
1)Bypass the pots
2)connect bridge alone to output
3)convert the bridge from SC to HB.
Therein lies the issue. You only have 2 poles.
But John's solution sounds workable to me.
I was also envisioning, rather than just a bridge blower, a blower that simply bypasses all the pots regardless of pickup selection- IOW, it would work when you were on the neck, or both pickups. But the more usual route is the bridge blower, for an instant solo position.
Be aware that, depending on the pickup, splitting one of those SC-sized HB may result in a noticeable volume drop compared to the neck pickup. Try it and see, but if you haven't yet done that with this pickup you may be less than pleased with the results.
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Post by merseymale on Mar 13, 2017 15:15:41 GMT -5
JohnH's point is that you're asking the "blower" switch to do 3 things: 1)Bypass the pots 2)connect bridge alone to output 3)convert the bridge from SC to HB. Therein lies the issue. You only have 2 poles. But John's solution sounds workable to me. I was also envisioning, rather than just a bridge blower, a blower that simply bypasses all the pots regardless of pickup selection- IOW, it would work when you were on the neck, or both pickups. But the more usual route is the bridge blower, for an instant solo position. Be aware that, depending on the pickup, splitting one of those SC-sized HB may result in a noticeable volume drop compared to the neck pickup. Try it and see, but if you haven't yet done that with this pickup you may be less than pleased with the results. Thanks again, Newey, I have tried it & like the sounds but it still has extra sounds I don't need AND is complicated live... it sounds Jaguar-like and takes very well to pedals but I only want that DPDT to bypass the controls and reintroduce the silenced SC If you think about it that way it could, maybe, be done?
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Post by JohnH on Mar 13, 2017 16:11:25 GMT -5
I had to think a while about what you meant, and I think I get it now:
The blower push pull, when down, forces tbe bridge to be a single coil, and in this mode it works with all the other controls to give you a two-single-coil guitar with on/off for each pickup, volume, tone and phase switch.
When up, the blower gives full bridge HB only with no controls or other switching active.
Have I understood now?
If so, I can see that could be a cool setup, given that youve explored other sounds with this guitar and are ready to home in on these.
The basic thought I had will still work. I think the phase should go on the bridge pickup now. That way your out of phase settings of N and B singles can be humcancelling as well as the in phase settings since the other bridge coil will be used.
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Post by merseymale on Mar 13, 2017 20:17:02 GMT -5
I had to think a while about what you meant, and I think I get it now: The blower push pull, when down, forces tbe bridge to be a single coil, and in this mode it works with all the other controls to give you a two-single-coil guitar with on/off for each pickup, volume, tone and phase switch. When up, the blower gives full bridge HB only with no controls or other switching active. Have I understood now? If so, I can see that could be a cool setup, given that youve explored other sounds with this guitar and are ready to home in on these. The basic thought I had will still work. I think the phase should go on the bridge pickup now. That way your out of phase settings of N and B singles can be humcancelling as well as the in phase settings since the other bridge coil will be used. Yep! That's exactly right JohnH! (I'm sure if ya didn't understand before that was my fault! I may be over here in England but that don't mean I can actually write English!!!) π I've since tried my 3rd wiring but I'm just chasing my tail on this... ALL my attempts have had the phase option on the Neck SC though so maybe that's a stumbling block I'm enforcing needlessly on myself? Great idea re:Hum-Cancelling though! I can flip the Bridge PuP (or it's magnet?) if there is a phase issue BUT that's not my priority at the moment! Again, thanks for your thoughts π
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Post by sumgai on Mar 13, 2017 22:19:47 GMT -5
I see only two ways out of this dilemma:
a) Go for a Fender S1 switch (a 4PDT), that will do the job as requested. The drawbacks are obvious - it won't look bone-stock*, and it isn't exactly cheap.
b) Or else move the problematic multiple-functionality to a mini-toggle somewhere on the pickguard. They can be purchased in a big variety of configurations, so 3 poles in Double Throw should be a snap. And probably for less coin than the S1.
Anything else will adversely affect the tonality, to the point of "why bother".
HTH
sumgai
* Although.... if that's a chrome mounting plate for the controls, then perhaps a Telecaster S1 might do the job.... who knows.
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Post by merseymale on Mar 13, 2017 23:20:18 GMT -5
Thanks sumgai although I hope you're not right I fear you may be!
I guess I could also just go a bit too basic on all this but I don't wanna miss the essential Fendery/Offset/quirkyness of this guitar π
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Post by sumgai on Mar 14, 2017 0:38:45 GMT -5
mm,
I don't know how this axe started life, did it have that humbucker right from the get-go?
I'm wondering here, since it hasn't been declared specifically - are you intending a "stealth" rig here? I mean, it looks bone-stock, but it has all these extra tones, that kind of thing? Because if not, then what's stopping you from adding the mini-toggle and getting everything you want?
sumgai
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Post by JohnH on Mar 14, 2017 4:21:27 GMT -5
Here is a schematic of the wiring I was thinking of, which does all you want with the parts that you have. This is a necessary first step for thinking out how it works. Can you follow this? The next step is a wiring diagram. To do that, it will be important to identify which colour wires go to which HB pole, and which pole is the same magnetic polarity to the neck, so that humcancelling can be optimised. The diagram indicated north and south, but it is relative, the key thing is to get opposite magnetic coils combined for in phase combinations.
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Post by merseymale on Mar 14, 2017 6:23:16 GMT -5
mm,
I don't know how this axe started life, did it have that humbucker right from the get-go?
I'm wondering here, since it hasn't been declared specifically - are you intending a "stealth" rig here?Β I mean, it looks bone-stock, but it has all these extra tones, that kind of thing?Β Because if not, then what's stopping you from adding the mini-toggle and getting everything you want?
sumgai
Not quite sure what you mean by 'stealth rig' (my bad!) I suppose it WOULD be a 'Wolf-in-Sheep's-Clothing' in that it is just a regular 2 SC guitar but by pulling on either of the potentiometers it 'changes its personality' somewhat...
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Post by merseymale on Mar 14, 2017 6:35:53 GMT -5
Here is a schematic of the wiring I was thinking of, which does all you want with the parts that you have. This is a necessary first step for thinking out how it works. Can you follow this? The next step is a wiring diagram. To do that, it will be important to identify which colour wires go to which HB pole, and which pole is the same magnetic polarity to the neck, so that humcancelling can be optimised. The diagram indicated north and south, but it is relative, the key thing is to get opposite magnetic coils combined for in phase combinations. View Attachment W O W!! Thank You SO much for the work you've put in π It's at this point that I realise that I don't read schematics as well as I thought I did! Nevermind... it's not your fault I'm ignorant! I will have a go at 'translating' this after college today but already I think I can see that you're doing the Blower circuit a bit differently (simpler?) than my own attempts? IF you can manage to rustle up a basic wiring diagram to go with this I would feel more confident AND be able to 'reverse study', for want of a better term, this schematic and actually get round to learning proper schematics for the future...sorta Rosetta Stone style!! π But please don't feel you have to! You've already put a lot of thought into this and I honestly am grateful. Thanks π
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Post by JohnH on Mar 14, 2017 6:53:44 GMT -5
All fine. its late night here so how about you have a go at drawing the wiring in sketch form, then we can review it. Draw the switches as if looking from the rear as you see them while wiring. This is also your chance to place them relatively to each other n the positions that you want on the guitar, which you should do since it is your design choice.
On the schematic, the switches as draw are as if the blower was engaged. You can trace the connections through the switch and both coils from ground to hot and also see how all other parts are either grounded on not connected.
The phase switch is shown 'in phase' and both the on/off switches are shown 'off' (not yhat that makes any difference if the blower is on)
Note, I drew a standard tone circuit, but you can sub in a GB tone circuit if you want.
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Post by merseymale on Mar 14, 2017 6:57:40 GMT -5
All fine. its late night here so how about you have a go at drawing the wiring in sketch form, then we can review it. Draw the switches as if looking from the rear as you see them while wiring. This is also your chance to place them relatively to each other n the positions that you want on the guitar, which you should do since it is your design choice. On the schematic, the switches as draw are as if the blower was engaged. You can trace the connections through the switch and both coils from ground to hot and also see how all other parts are either grounded on not connected. The phase switch is shown 'in phase' and both the on/off switches are shown 'off' (not yhat that makes any difference if the blower is on) Note, I drew a standard tone circuit, but you can sub in a GB tone circuit if you want. Yup! Sorry (lunch-break here in Liverpool) I'll have a go this (my!) evening Have a Good Night
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Post by sumgai on Mar 14, 2017 12:25:09 GMT -5
John,
Nice shot. I like how you used the Hb series junction point as the "hot" lead, thus allowing S4 to act as a coil select switch when the Blower isn't engaged.
Sadly for me, I can't see how S4 acts as a phase switch in 'normal' mode - can you enlighten me, please?
sumgai
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Post by JohnH on Mar 14, 2017 14:01:29 GMT -5
John,
Nice shot. I like how you used the Hb series junction point as the "hot" lead, thus allowing S4 to acts as a coil select switch when the Blower isn't engaged.
Sadly for me, I can't see how S4 acts as a phase switch in 'normal' mode - can you enlighten me, please?
sumgai
As drawn, the HB south coil has its -ve lead to ground and would be the active coil if blower S3 was pushed in and S2 activated, in-phase with N. If S4 was then flipped, then the north coil would be active instead and its + led would go to ground, for a OOP setting if N was on.
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Post by merseymale on Mar 14, 2017 17:17:26 GMT -5
All fine. its late night here so how about you have a go at drawing the wiring in sketch form, then we can review it. Draw the switches as if looking from the rear as you see them while wiring. This is also your chance to place them relatively to each other n the positions that you want on the guitar, which you should do since it is your design choice. On the schematic, the switches as draw are as if the blower was engaged. You can trace the connections through the switch and both coils from ground to hot and also see how all other parts are either grounded on not connected. The phase switch is shown 'in phase' and both the on/off switches are shown 'off' (not yhat that makes any difference if the blower is on) Note, I drew a standard tone circuit, but you can sub in a GB tone circuit if you want. OK I hope you can see this OK It's just what I've done SO FAR before I try(!) to add to it as I'd like some assurance that I'm not totally off bean!
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