Electrical differences by wire gauge, practical demo.

[antigua]

I finally got around to making some pickups for testing purposes. I made three singles coils, each are 8,000 turns, and each is wound with a different gauge of wire, 41, 42, and 43 AWG.

The goal is to see how the spec vary for a given wind count and different gauges of wire.


smallest wire to largest:




Using the Mojotone winding machine, I wound the 42 AWG first, and it's very much on the loose side. It took me a little time to get the tension thing down.

I had to apply careful pressure to the 41 AWG to get it to stay on the bobbin. The first time around I wound it too lose, and it just unraveled by itself. It's tricky to both make it tight, and not apply so much tension that the wire snaps.

The 43 AWG pickup came last, and I accidentally broke it with only 1,000 turns to go, so I carefully stripped the wire, twisted and soldered it, and kept going for the final 1,000 winds.

These bobbins and magnets are Chinese Donlis DS53 with AlNiCo 5 pole pieces. I removed the stock coil wire in order to wind my own coils in their place.


Here are the measured specs:


8000 turns 41 AWG
DC Resistance:  5.0k ohms
Inductance:     2.376H
Resonant peak:  dV: 16.3dB f: 7.54kHz
Loaded peak:    dV: 7.2dB f: 3.94kHz (470pF & 200k)
Calculated Cap: 178pF (188-10)
Coil width:     0.47"


8000 turns 42 AWG
DC Resistance:  6.1k ohms
Inductance:     2.365H
Resonant peak:  dV: 16.3dB f: 10.7kHz
Loaded peak:    dV: 7.2dB f: 4.17kHz (470pF & 200k)
Calculated Cap: 84pF (94-10)
Coil width:     0.62"


8000 turns 43 AWG
DC Resistance:  7.9k ohms
Inductance:     2.341H
Resonant peak:  dV: 18.5dB f: 9.70kHz
Loaded peak:    dV: 8.1dB f: 4.17kHz (470pF & 200k)
Calculated Cap: 105pF (115-10)
Coil width:     0.77"







DC resistance observations: 8,000 turns of 42 AWG ends up at 6.1k, which is an extremely common DC resistance for Strat pickups. Without having applied much tension, the bobbin is just about maxed out at this wind count. 41 AWG resulted in a 1k drop in resistance to 5.0k, while the thinner 43 AWG resulted in nearly a 2k increase in resistance, to 7.9k ohms.

The 42 and 43 AWG showed similar Q factors, but the 41 AWG showed a higher Q factor, which might be a result of the lower DC resistance enabling stronger resonance, but then you'd think the higher resistance 43 AWG would show a lower Q, so I don't know.


Inductance observations: The inductances are remarkably close, which is a little surprising to me, since the sizes of the coils ended up being rather different. It shows the strong correlation between wind count and inductance. Each shows only a few millihenries difference.


Capacitance observations: So the 42 AWG has very low capacitance at 85pF, but I'm certain this owes to the rediculous looseness of the coil. When I press it with my fingers, it feels like a pillow. I'm going to wind a couple more 42 AWG coils with a focus on tension and coil thickness in order to see what the boundaries are between capacitance and coil size, for a given wind count. This surely comes close to representing the low end. Most "high quality" hand wound boutiques tent to land around 95pF, give or take 10pF, while machine wound pickups with very tight coils end up around 135pF, give or take 15pF. A note about scatter winding, I made zero effort to scatter the wire. I pretty much held the wire still, moving it around occasionally to balance out the coil.

The theory says that the thicker 41 AWG should show a higher capacitance, because larger wire = more surface area, and sure enough at 178pF it is quite high. The 43 AWG is conversely low at 105pF. Both of these coils are more tightly wound than the 42 AWG coil. Had the 42 AWG been wound with the same tension, I suspect it would land somewhere in between the two, and I'll explore this more with the next experiment.


Resonant peak observations: The wide variation on capacitance caused the unloaded peaks to vary by over 1kHz, but with a capacitive load, the similar inductance of all three causes the resonant peaks to come rather close together, around 4kHz.



The most informative thing about this experiment for me, is satisfying curiosity about how the DC resistance of 42 and 43 AWG compare, so if a Tele neck pickup is wound to 7.5k with 43AWG, that means it's comparable to a Strat pickup with a DC resistant around 5.6k, all other things being equal.

The other informative aspect is show the strong correlation between wind count and inductance, and that the variation in coil size, the fact that the 41 AWG coil is so large and the 43 AWG coil so small, doesn't greatly impact the inductance.


Reference for DC resistance equivalence: 

To convert 42 AWG to 43 AWG equivalent, you multiply the resistance by 1.29 ( 2143 / 1659 )
To convert 42 AWG to 44 AWG equivalent, you multiply the resistance by 1.56 ( 2593 / 1659 )

To convert 43 AWG to 42 AWG equivalent, you multiply the resistance by 0.77 ( 1659 / 2143 )
To convert 43 AWG to 44 AWG equivalent, you multiply the resistance by 1.21 ( 2593 / 2143 )

To convert 44 AWG to 42 AWG equivalent, you multiply the resistance by 0.64 ( 1659 / 2593 )
To convert 44 AWG to 43 AWG equivalent, you multiply the resistance by 0.83 ( 2143 / 2593 )

[wgen]

I was re-reading this topic and I was thinking about a strat pickup I have in the neck position of a guitar, the YJM Fury neck pickup (please don't ask me why I have this One...long Story, however it's not how it seems )
That pickup is basically a noiseless type, with two bobbins, One above the other and Alnico poles. They could be wired in series, and the DC resistance goes up to 22 k more or less (!!), Or you could wire just One of the bobbins, which gives slightly more of 11 k...I have it mounted as a single coil like in this case, I found a cheap multimeter so I measured it and it gave about 11 k DC resistance like it was written in the older Duncan pickup chart.
But, the sound isn't that dark I thought it would be with 11k...Could it be that it is wound with 43 AWG wire, perhaps? So, if I understood right, the inductance would be in the ballpark of a slightly overwound single coil with 42 AWG wire, so, not that muddy I thought it would be...?
Thank you very much in advance!

[reTrEaD]

wgen, I would guess your YJM Fury pickups are wound with 44 gauge wire. You have less than half the height for each coil and they don't appear to be wound all that thick.
medias.audiofanzine.com/images/normal/seymour-duncan-stk-s10-yjm-fury-623845.jpg

[frankfalbo]

The Dimarzio HS-3 and YJM models were/are both wound with 45AWG wire. That's all I can tell you. 

[wgen]

Jun 27, 2017 11:59:25 GMT -5 reTrEaD said:

wgen, I would guess your YJM Fury pickups are wound with 44 gauge wire. You have less than half the height for each coil and they don't appear to be wound all that thick.
medias.audiofanzine.com/images/normal/seymour-duncan-stk-s10-yjm-fury-623845.jpg

Thank you very much! Yes, that seems the case, and I'm pretty sure that the bobbins looked like that when I installed the pickup.
So, could it be that in this case the 11+ K DC resistance reading leads to an inductance more similar to that of a "vintage style" single coil, for a traditional strat tone?

[wgen]

Jun 27, 2017 13:31:05 GMT -5 frankfalbo said:

The Dimarzio HS-3 and YJM models were/are both wound with 45AWG wire. That's all I can tell you. 

Thank you!

[reTrEaD]

Jun 27, 2017 13:34:02 GMT -5 wgen said:

So, could it be that in this case the 11+ K DC resistance reading leads to an inductance more similar to that of a "vintage style" single coil, for a traditional strat tone?

Let's look at antigua's results for inductance on each of his pickups for some clues.
The resistance changes dramatically due to the change in wire diameter.
The resistance of the 43 gauge 8000 winds is 58% higher than the 41 gauge winding.
The inductance of the 43 gauge wind is about 1.5% lower.
(The average 'diameter' of the 43 gauge windings is slightly smaller.)

Conclusion:
Wire gauge has very little effect on inductance for a given number of turns and coil height.
Wire gauge has a definite effect on resistance for a given number of turns and coil height.

Each of your coils is likely to have a similar inductance to those shown here, if they had the same 8000 turns. But that's for each coil and assuming the bottom coil has the magnets going all the way through. We don't know that to be the case. It's entirely possible on the YJMs the magnets only go through the upper bobbin. If the lower bobbin doesn't have magnets, the inductance of that coil should be dramatically lower.

As far as 'tone' is concerned, we would need to consider the lower Q due to the higher resistance and lower capacitance of the smaller wire (although insulation type and thickness will also change the capacitance). And the series connection of the two coils. That sort of analysis is above my paygrade.

My apologies to antigua for derailing his thread with this tangent.

[antigua]

Jun 27, 2017 14:56:16 GMT -5 reTrEaD said:

Jun 27, 2017 13:34:02 GMT -5 wgen said:

So, could it be that in this case the 11+ K DC resistance reading leads to an inductance more similar to that of a "vintage style" single coil, for a traditional strat tone?

Let's look at antigua's results for inductance on each of his pickups for some clues.
The resistance changes dramatically due to the change in wire diameter.
The resistance of the 43 gauge 8000 winds is 58% higher than the 41 gauge winding.
The inductance of the 43 gauge wind is about 1.5% lower.
(The average 'diameter' of the 43 gauge windings is slightly smaller.)

Conclusion:
Wire gauge has very little effect on inductance for a given number of turns and coil height.
Wire gauge has a definite effect on resistance for a given number of turns and coil height.

Each of your coils is likely to have a similar inductance to those shown here, if they had the same 8000 turns. But that's for each coil and assuming the bottom coil has the magnets going all the way through. We don't know that to be the case. It's entirely possible on the YJMs the magnets only go through the upper bobbin. If the lower bobbin doesn't have magnets, the inductance of that coil should be dramatically lower.

As far as 'tone' is concerned, we would need to consider the lower Q due to the higher resistance and lower capacitance of the smaller wire (although insulation type and thickness will also change the capacitance). And the series connection of the two coils. That sort of analysis is above my paygrade.

My apologies to antigua for derailing his thread with this tangent.

I agree with your conclusion, but FYI, in a subsequent test guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/7933/coil-tension-electrical-values-experiment  I found a fairly wide variation in DC resistance and inductance for a fixed number of turns, the variance is about +/- 50mH for indcutance and, +/-150ohms for the "hand guided" pickups I wound, so the overall conclusions are sound, but the precision is not as precise as is implied form this small sample. Machine wound pickups do have much tighter tolerances, as I've seen when I've pulled pickups out of import guitars, and so if this test could be performed with a Tanac, or something similar, then we'd get some really precise data.

[wgen]

Okay, please sorry for the obviously dumb questions I'm going to ask (again) about this subject, but...
I was thinking about the differences between typical, "vintage style" Stratocaster single coil pickups and Telecaster "vintage style" bridge pickups.
Let's say we are taking some classic examples of Alnico rods pickups, for both types.
I checked out (once again) the analysis of Antigua, about both Strat and Tele pickups.
In both of these tests, we can find pickups with a DC resistance in between 6 Kohm and 7 Kohm, for Strats as well as for Tele bridge pickups.
Let's consider these specific examples in particular.
The inductance of most Strat pickups with those specs will likely be around 2.5 henries.
The inductance of most Tele bridge pickups, of that same "vintage" kind and a pretty similar DC resistance, will likely be well above 3 henries, instead.

Now, if I read carefully this thread, I think to understand that the more turns of wire, the higher inductance I'll get.
So, I can get that a Tele bridge pickup might have more turns of wire...this could be clearly visible and possible, if we consider its wider bobbin which lets you more turns of wire.
But...being the bobbin of the Tele pickup wider, if we target its DC resistance to that "in between 6 Kohm and 7 Kohm" described earlier, shouldn't it have LESS turns of wire, and therefore a smaller inductance than a Strat pickup with similar DC resistance?
If I think about it...wider bobbin means longer wire needed to make a full turn, and therefore shouldn't the Tele bobbin have, as a final result, less turns of wire to achieve that similar DC resistance of the Strat pickup (around 6-7 Kohm)?

What am I missing here?
Thank you very much in advance!



Edit: actually some of the Tele bridge pickups seem to be "in the ballpark" of Strat vintage pickups, for example (copy-paste from Antigua's posts):

"Fender Pure Vintage '64 Telecaster Pickup Set
Bridge
- DC Resistance: 6.58K ohms
- Measured L: 2.684H"


or, also:

"Seymour Duncan Antiquity Telecaster Pickup Set
Bridge
- DC Resistance: 6.75K ohms
- Measured L: 2.567H"


...while some examples of Strat pickups are not too far:

"Donlis DS53 Neck
DC Resistance: 6.50K
Inductance: 2.827H"

"Lollar Black Face Neck
DC R: 6.70K
L: 2.531H"


It was something like these Telecaster "vintage" type bridge pickups that brought me some doubts:

"Fender Original Vintage Telecaster Set
Bridge
- DC Resistance: 6.78K ohms
- Measured L: 3.566H"

"Fender Nocaster Telecaster Pickup Set
Bridge
- DC Resistance: 6.84K ohms
- Measured L: 3.821H"

"Fender Pure Vintage '58 Telecaster Pickup Set
Bridge
- DC Resistance: 6.72K ohms
- Measured L: 3.169H"

[reTrEaD]

Jan 5, 2018 13:01:00 GMT -5 wgen said:

Okay, please sorry for the obviously dumb questions I'm going to ask

The questions don't seem dumb to me. You're identifying a trend and looking for reasons that don't seem apparent. Not sure that I have the definitive answer but I'll take a stab at it.

Jan 5, 2018 13:01:00 GMT -5 wgen said:

If I think about it...wider bobbin means longer wire needed to make a full turn, and therefore shouldn't the Tele bobbin have, as a final result, less turns of wire to achieve that similar DC resistance of the Strat pickup (around 6-7 Kohm)?

What am I missing here?

Maybe one thing you're missing is the effect of coil area on inductance. Larger area means more inductance per turn. I'll guess that it's pretty much a wash between same length for fewer turns and greater area when it comes to the inductance, but I'm sure Antigua or ms will clarify.

Also, a Telecaster bridge pickup has a steel baseplate. That would mean higher inductance, all else being equal. And the polepieces might be different in material or diameter. Or the wire size might be different.

Stay tuned for the EM science guys to weigh in and do a better job of sorting this.

[antigua]

Jan 5, 2018 13:01:00 GMT -5 wgen said:

Okay, please sorry for the obviously dumb questions I'm going to ask (again) about this subject, but...
I was thinking about the differences between typical, "vintage style" Stratocaster single coil pickups and Telecaster "vintage style" bridge pickups.
Let's say we are taking some classic examples of Alnico rods pickups, for both types.
I checked out (once again) the analysis of Antigua, about both Strat and Tele pickups.
In both of these tests, we can find pickups with a DC resistance in between 6 Kohm and 7 Kohm, for Strats as well as for Tele bridge pickups.
Let's consider these specific examples in particular.
The inductance of most Strat pickups with those specs will likely be around 2.5 henries.
The inductance of most Tele bridge pickups, of that same "vintage" kind and a pretty similar DC resistance, will likely be well above 3 henries, instead.

Now, if I read carefully this thread, I think to understand that the more turns of wire, the higher inductance I'll get.
So, I can get that a Tele bridge pickup might have more turns of wire...this could be clearly visible and possible, if we consider its wider bobbin which lets you more turns of wire.
But...being the bobbin of the Tele pickup wider, if we target its DC resistance to that "in between 6 Kohm and 7 Kohm" described earlier, shouldn't it have LESS turns of wire, and therefore a smaller inductance than a Strat pickup with similar DC resistance?
If I think about it...wider bobbin means longer wire needed to make a full turn, and therefore shouldn't the Tele bobbin have, as a final result, less turns of wire to achieve that similar DC resistance of the Strat pickup (around 6-7 Kohm)?

What am I missing here?
Thank you very much in advance!



Edit: actually some of the Tele bridge pickups seem to be "in the ballpark" of Strat vintage pickups, for example (copy-paste from Antigua's posts):

"Fender Pure Vintage '64 Telecaster Pickup Set
Bridge
- DC Resistance: 6.58K ohms
- Measured L: 2.684H"


or, also:

"Seymour Duncan Antiquity Telecaster Pickup Set
Bridge
- DC Resistance: 6.75K ohms
- Measured L: 2.567H"


...while some examples of Strat pickups are not too far:

"Donlis DS53 Neck
DC Resistance: 6.50K
Inductance: 2.827H"

"Lollar Black Face Neck
DC R: 6.70K
L: 2.531H"


It was something like these Telecaster "vintage" type bridge pickups that brought me some doubts:

"Fender Original Vintage Telecaster Set
Bridge
- DC Resistance: 6.78K ohms
- Measured L: 3.566H"

"Fender Nocaster Telecaster Pickup Set
Bridge
- DC Resistance: 6.84K ohms
- Measured L: 3.821H"

"Fender Pure Vintage '58 Telecaster Pickup Set
Bridge
- DC Resistance: 6.72K ohms
- Measured L: 3.169H"

Tele bridge bobbins are actually a little taller than Strat bobbins, they just look fat because they wrap string around the coil.

This is a good observation, though. It had been a while since I measure those Tele sets so I hadn't thought about it. I have the Nocaster set right here, so I just checked it again and I get the same inductance reading as I did when I last tested, 3.8 henries, with the meter in series mode, 120Hz test frequency. 

I don't have a 100% explanation for why the Fender Nocaster and the Seymour Duncan Antiquity Tele bridge pickups have over a 1 henry difference in inductance, despite near identical DC resistances, although there are some possible factors.

Probably the most major difference is AlNiCo 3 vs AlNiCo 5, check this out guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/7830/electrical-effects-piece-metal-types

material   inductance  pole piece len. peak resonance with 570pF

Steel      3.975H      0.66" -.74"     3.34kHz
AlNiCo 2   2.203H      0.68"           4.49kHz
AlNiCo 3   2.244H      0.67"           4.45kHz
AlNiCo 4   2.184H      0.71"           4.51kHz
AlNiCo 5   1.882H      0.68"           4.86kHz
Air        1.493H      n/a             5.46kHz

The "dummy" coil was a plastic Strat pickup with a resistance of 5.44kHz, and the difference between AlNiCo 3 and 5 was about 0.35 henries, just from swapping the AlNiCo pole pieces. That could explain some of the Seymour Duncan Antiquity Telecaster Pickup Set, which is A5, and the Nocaster, which is A3. 

That might not explain the relatively huge 1 henry difference, though. The other interesting thing is that all the pickups you identified with high inductances to lower DC resistances are also Fender pickups, so it could be something about how their winders are configured that differs from other companies. If Fender somehow sourced wire that was closer to 41 AWG, or something like that, it would certainly explain a lower DC resistance for a higher inductance, but I don't know how likely that is to be case. 

To really get to the bottom of it would require making a bunch of carefully wound test pickups, where the small differences in winding could be analyzed. I tried that here guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/7933/coil-tension-electrical-values-experiment but mostly determined that hand winding pickups is not consistent enough to produce a pickup that's worthy of testing. You'd need a machine winder that could be configured for so many traverses and so much tension. I've got stock pickups from Japan that were so identical to one another that it was spooky, like each one was precisely 5.85k ohms. That's what we'd need in order to document differences between wind patterns and electrical outcomes. 

This all speaks to why DC resistance poorly correlates to the transfer function of the pickup. Maybe multimeters with inductance measurement capabilities will come down in price, become ubiquitous, and we can't put this DC resistance nightmare behind us. 

[pablogilberto]

Hi antigua



I'd like to know how do you measure the coil width?



What's the importance of it in terms of pickup analysis?

Can you share your thoughts?



I also found the coil estimator that you shared:

www.jdguitarworks.com/coil/coil.html



I see the Length" Width" Height" parameters here.

Do these parameters pertain to the inner dimensions of the coil?



I also want to understand what the flange" and WINDINGS BY FILL FACTOR mean and how they affects the overall coil geometry.



Thank you!

[antigua]

Oct 15, 2020 0:47:52 GMT -5 pablogilberto said:

Hi antigua



I'd like to know how do you measure the coil width?



What's the importance of it in terms of pickup analysis?

Can you share your thoughts?



I also found the coil estimator that you shared:

www.jdguitarworks.com/coil/coil.html



I see the Length" Width" Height" parameters here.

Do these parameters pertain to the inner dimensions of the coil?



I also want to understand what the flange" and WINDINGS BY FILL FACTOR mean and how they affects the overall coil geometry.



Thank you!

The width measurement was just to document how loose the coil was for a given number of turns. I used a caliper to measure the width. It's not real important, other than to look for correlations. 

If a coil is wound loose, it will be microphonic, so it has to be wax potted in order to fix that, but the wax in turn increases the dielectric value, and the looser coil also results in lower inductance due to poorer coupling, so anything you stand to gain by loose winding is ultimately lost, it's just a n inefficient way to make a guitar pickup.

The idea of a loose coil relates to the idea of "scatter winding". Pickups that are supposedly "scatter wound" would have the characteristic of a loose coil, because the scatter should cause the wire to lay unevenly, introducing air pockets within the coil. But all of the pickups I've seen that claim to be scatter wound do not appear to be remarkable in any way, not loose, nor fat, and the capacitance is not especially low. Not only is scatter winding pointless, but I doubt that makers who claim to scatter wind are making any special effort to "scatter" the wire.

[stratpaul]

Good afternoon,

I stumbled across this thread in my quest for some new strat pickups...   With a mathematics/CS background, I enjoyed it so much that I registered!  With so many boutique pickup makers and loyal followings.  An article like this brings the data/science back into the equation and thus making it easier to ignore the exaggerated marketing claims.  (No disrespect to anyone making a living in this market and supporting your family.  I understand the importance of promoting /magnifying your brand.)

I was getting extremely overwhelmed with all the options considered thus far,   Kleins, Kloppman, Ron Ellis, Rose, Mare, Fralin, Rio Grande, DAllen, Porter, Cavalier, Duncan, Van Zandt, Dimarzio, Manlius, Amalfitano, Mojotone  etc...  and the many I left out? oh yea, Fender?    (I am sure one could not go wrong with any of the choices mentioned...)

Bottom line, this thread has convinced me to purchase a set of Fender Pure Vintage '59 (for 50.00/per pickup)  

Thank you Antiqua for being the voice of reason!

(This thread has actually encouraged me to try to get into winding..  (just for fun guys!),  anyone that can direct me to a thread/resource on beginners guide to pickup winding would be appreciated!,  I am confident that my experience/patience in setting the pickup(s) height/balancing, I could make even 'my' pickups sound good? 

Glad to be a new member of this forum!

StratPaul

[straylight]

I did similar for 5000 turns on humbucker bobbins, I though I posted it up here, will have a serarch and if not I'll post it.

The big takeaway I got from that at the time was the unloaded reuslts were a bit varied, I think pickuing up small differences in capacatance from winding patters but as soon as there was a typical load in place they all looked very similar. I will probably redo this when I have rebuilt my pickup winder which my current work in progress.

Again the question arises of why fussing over 20pF or so of capacatance in a coil is a big deal when most guitar cables are ~100pF/metre, and worse 4 conductor humbucker cables are 200-350pF/metre and so many guitarists refuse to cut them down.

[straylight]

5000 turns on a 52mm ABS humbucker bobbin, with some M5 set screw cores I had kicking around. Just one coil.

This broadly correlates with Antigua's work. There's some noise on the 42AWG plot and I think this was before I debounced the switch on my winder so it's a little vague. My concusion at the time as pretty much identical result to within the certainty of my data, but thicker wire was showing a more pronounced resonace spike. I think two of these bobbins went into the Super-2 clone in the neck of the Ibanez ive been recording rhythm parts on all year, so can't really repeat with the original coils.

5000 42-HEX Pot
Calculated Inductance: 1.86 H
Calculated Capacitance: 50.5 pF
Loaded Cutoff: 5966 Hz
Loaded Resonant Peak: 4606 Hz -57 dB
Unloaded Cutoff: 14039 Hz

Unloaded Resonant Peak: 13492 Hz -60.5 dB

DC Resistance 3.99 kOhms

5000 43-HEX Pot
Calculated Inductance: 1.94 H
Calculated Capacitance: 47.7 pF
Loaded Cutoff: 6086 Hz"
Loaded Resonant Peak: 4427 Hz -56.3 dB
Unloaded Cutoff: 14039 Hz
Unloaded Resonant Peak: 13492 Hz -60.4 dB

DC Resistance 4.80 kOhms

5000 44-HEX Pot
Calculated Inductance: 2.01 H
Calculated Capacitance: 50.5 pF
Loaded Cutoff: 5621 Hz
Loaded Resonant Peak: 4007 Hz -57.7 dB
Unloaded Cutoff: 13492 Hz
Unloaded Resonant Peak: 12965 Hz -60.7 dB
DC Resistance 5.98 kOhms

[antigua]

It looks like you test coils have identical capacitance and varying inductance, while my test was the other way around. I think that confirms what is to be expected, that these values don't follow with the wire gauge alone, and that as physics would tell us, if you make exactly the same coil and only change the wire diameter, the only variation that is assured is a slight increase in series resistance. 

The capacitance of a pickup is nearly a triviality, but while human hearing is crude with respect to amplitude, it's sensitive to frequency. But added to that fact, the output of the guitar is not a linear sweep, the guitar's signal only outputs content in the 4kHz range for a split second, but it puts out content in the lower frequencies for a longer duration, so if the 100pF alters the peak resonance in the higher frequency range, it won't be as audible as a change in the lower frequencies. If you have a pickup, like a PAF, that has a peak in the mid 2.5kHz range, it might be that 100pF makes an audible difference. That's something I could test, I probably should. 

[straylight]

Honestly my results are mostly noise. With the accuracy i was winding to at that point and the visible noise in the frequency reponse plots, I was at the point where I realised I'd have to wind 10 of each for a good result and I delayed further investigation until I had a more consistent winding machine. I could wind a batch of pickups to identical specs and the response plots would show up with a similar distribution.

Mostly this convinced me that consistent process was way more impotant than anything else. It's part of a dataset with different core material and it's done unpotted as well, whcih IRC is even noisier. I'll go through and see if I can pull anything useful out, but I think the value of the dataset I have will be in seeing if the winding machine i'm procrastinating about building is significantly more consistent.

[antigua]

Jan 13, 2021 10:54:03 GMT -5 straylight said:

Honestly my results are mostly noise. With the accuracy i was winding to at that point and the visible noise in the frequency reponse plots, I was at the point where I realised I'd have to wind 10 of each for a good result and I delayed further investigation until I had a more consistent winding machine. I could wind a batch of pickups to identical specs and the response plots would show up with a similar distribution.

Mostly this convinced me that consistent process was way more impotant than anything else. It's part of a dataset with different core material and it's done unpotted as well, whcih IRC is even noisier. I'll go through and see if I can pull anything useful out, but I think the value of the dataset I have will be in seeing if the winding machine i'm procrastinating about building is significantly more consistent.

It's noise in a sense, but had you seen the same results I did, it might have supported the idea that wire gauge has some corollary to capacitance. But it didn't, and so it reduces the chance of their being a correlation.  

I know from measuring sets of three, where the set calls for three pickups to be alike, they can be incredibly consistent. My hand guided pickups are always wildly consistent. I think this is easy to explain in terms of the average coupling coefficient of the individual turns. If the turns tend to be cross-hatched, the inductance product will be less than if the turns overlap perfectly. To the extent that that can be called an efficiency, the neatly wound machine pickups are more efficient. If a pickup heavily "scatter winds" the pickup, it stands to reason that the inductance and maybe even the intrinsic capacitance will be reduced, and if they prefer the outcome, it could be that the reduced inductance is what underlies their preference. 

[ziggystardust723]

I got a 'Hot-Rails' in Strato size,
= wound with Awg45,for 12k..
I got 0thers: for 13,85k,
> Could they're done with same kind of Wire.?
Bye, Ziggy Stardust.
(France)

[ziggystardust723]

Hello guys,
So, Where do I can find Awg45 wire.?
- I don't find it anyway..
Thanks a lot,
Ziggy Stardust.

[Jaga]

Example.

www.ebay.com/itm/45-AWG-11-0z-Elektrisola-B155-Single-Enamel-Coated-Copper-Magnet-Wire/143875749260?hash=item217fa9b58c:g:4DoAAOSwh-RfzYvD

[ziggystardust723]

Jaga, Thanks a lot,
but I don't like to Bye on E-Bay:
> you have to Pay near the same for Shipping (as what they Ask..).
= I need to bye for 'normal price'..
- I wind pickups since 8y with 7Wires
(I'm waiting 2 weeks ago for an 8th)
- I really thank you, no matter..
- Bye, Ziggy (France.There it's 9 past 5, in the Morning..)