The Three-position Slide Switch (Fender Mustang)

[reTrEaD]

Nov 19, 2020 20:08:16 GMT -5 Jaga said:

It would be really cool to limit only to combinations that cancel hum + single coils, but not sure if it is possible.

Jaga, individual switches like DPDTs and the Mustang switch aren't inherently good at such things. On the other hand, a 4P5T like a Superswitch, Megaswitch-M, or a rotary is very good at that. You might want to look at the three flavors of Strat-o-Various I posted in Design Modules. There I've used a 4P5T and a single DPDT to create basic frameworks that can be used the starting point.

An HH or HSS where one of the single is north and the other is south will provide four different in-phase two-coil pairs that are hum canceling. Those can be easily switched between series configuration or parallel with the DPDT. The fifth two-coil pair might be a hum-canceling but out-of-phase. Or you could use one of the flavors that is more useful for combining more than two coils at a time.

If a 4P5T is off the table, I really can't suggest an easy way of using the types of switches you're currently focused on, to limit the selections to only those that are hum-canceling.

[Jaga]

Nov 19, 2020 23:24:35 GMT -5 reTrEaD said:

Jaga , individual switches like DPDTs and the Mustang switch aren't inherently good at such things. On the other hand, a 4P5T like a Superswitch, Megaswitch-M, or a rotary is very good at that. You might want to look at the three flavors of Strat-o-Various I posted in Design Modules. There I've used a 4P5T and a single DPDT to create basic frameworks that can be used the starting point.

An HH or HSS where one of the single is north and the other is south will provide four different in-phase two-coil pairs that are hum canceling. Those can be easily switched between series configuration or parallel with the DPDT. The fifth two-coil pair might be a hum-canceling but out-of-phase. Or you could use one of the flavors that is more useful for combining more than two coils at a time.

If a 4P5T is off the table, I really can't suggest an easy way of using the types of switches you're currently focused on, to limit the selections to only those that are hum-canceling.

The thing is that without these slide switches Jaguar guitar won't look so cool. While I really like your Strat-o-Various design, I'm curious, probably, there's a way to use 4P3T or 4PDT switch with addition to several DPDTs to achieve similar results.

[reTrEaD]

Nov 21, 2020 19:46:32 GMT -5 Jaga said:

The thing is that without these slide switches Jaguar guitar won't look so cool. While I really like your Strat-o-Various design, I'm curious, probably, there's a way to use 4P3T or 4PDT switch with addition to several DPDTs to achieve similar results.

You might be able to come up with something, but I predict it will be a very tough puzzle to solve if you're intent on providing only hum-canceling combinations (and singles).

[Yogi B]

Nov 19, 2020 20:08:16 GMT -5 Jaga said:

I have a HSS guitar ... I thought to use mustang switch ... since I have a Jaguar.

Do these all refer to the same guitar? I thought Mustang-style switches were larger (longer) than the Jaguar-style switches, thus won't fit in a regular Jag switch plate.

If the HSS guitar is indeed the Jaguar, with the standard control layout (4 slide switches, main V&T, plus roller-pots) I have an idea that I reckon should be possible which might be of interest to you. Whilst not comprehensive it does include what are likely the most usable tones, and all but the individual single coils can be made hum-cancelling with appropriate pickup polarities.

Lower three DPDT switches:

Sw B	Sw M	Sw N	Selection
off	off	off	None
		on	Neck single
	on	off	Middle single
		on	Middle + Neck
on	off	off	Bridge HB in parallel
		on	Bridge outer coil + Neck
	on	off	Bridge inner coil + Middle
		on	Bridge HB in series + Middle + Neck

All of these selections would be controlled by the main volume & tone.

You might notice the lack of the bridge humbucker in series by itself in this list, that's what the fourth switch is for, and where this idea becomes less feasible.

Switchcraft make a 4PDT version of the Jaguar-style switch (part number 50212L) Switchcaft Catalog (p. 292), Mouser, Digikey.

At 0.781 inches (19.8mm), it's a shade over one and a half times wider than the DPDT version, but might just fit below the upper control plate with little to no modification of the control cavity.

This fourth switch would be somewhat similar to the regular Jag rhythm/lead switch -- bypassing the other switching and main volume & tone, and instead engaging the roller-pots -- but rather than selecting the neck only, we'd get the (missing) bridge series selection.

[Jaga]

Nov 19, 2020 10:45:55 GMT -5 reTrEaD said:

Jaga , your wiring will work as-advertised but it will have unused coils shunted when only one pickup is selected. Also, the unused shunted Neck will be hanging from hot when the Bridge (only) is selected.

None of this is a deal-breaker but should be avoided when possible. And it is possible in this case, although that would require using both sides of the Mustang switch. If that locks you out of your ultimate goal, I won't meddle. But if you'd like me to create a drawing on how to accomplish your current truth table more cleanly, I can spend some time on that tomorrow or the next.

Nov 19, 2020 23:24:35 GMT -5 reTrEaD said:

Jaga , individual switches like DPDTs and the Mustang switch aren't inherently good at such things. On the other hand, a 4P5T like a Superswitch, Megaswitch-M, or a rotary is very good at that. You might want to look at the three flavors of Strat-o-Various I posted in Design Modules. There I've used a 4P5T and a single DPDT to create basic frameworks that can be used the starting point.

Looks like I have another idea. I believe that in order to have series/parallel/coilA/coilB options without hanging from hot issues is would be enough to use 2P4T switch. Then, a 4P5T can be used to do the same for 2 sets of coils simultaneously and it can replace the mustang switch in the wiring (extra throw can be used for OOP mode, for example). I found a schematics featuring 2P4T switches, does it look correct (reply #14)? guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/8698/rgx-312-46-tone-project?page=1&scrollTo=90344

Nov 22, 2020 3:28:46 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

Do these all refer to the same guitar? I thought Mustang-style switches were larger (longer) than the Jaguar-style switches, thus won't fit in a regular Jag switch plate.

Actually that's not a problem with custom control plate: store.factionguitars.com/collections/control-plates?page=2
For one of my instrument I've even created my own design of the plate

Nov 22, 2020 3:28:46 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

If the HSS guitar is indeed the Jaguar, with the standard control layout (4 slide switches, main V&T, plus roller-pots) I have an idea that I reckon should be possible which might be of interest to you. Whilst not comprehensive it does include what are likely the most usable tones, and all but the individual single coils can be made hum-cancelling with appropriate pickup polarities.

Lower three DPDT switches:

Sw B	Sw M	Sw N	Selection
off	off	off	None
		on	Neck single
	on	off	Middle single
		on	Middle + Neck
on	off	off	Bridge HB in parallel
		on	Bridge outer coil + Neck
	on	off	Bridge inner coil + Middle
		on	Bridge HB in series + Middle + Neck

All of these selections would be controlled by the main volume & tone.

I wonder if there's schematics exist of this switching idea?

Nov 22, 2020 3:28:46 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

Switchcraft make a 4PDT version of the Jaguar-style switch (part number 50212L) Switchcaft Catalog (p. 292), Mouser, Digikey.

At 0.781 inches (19.8mm), it's a shade over one and a half times wider than the DPDT version, but might just fit below the upper control plate with little to no modification of the control cavity.

Actually the switch is not exactly the same, the shape of the tip is a bit different, but it should fit to the plate from the mounting holes point of view.



There is also “2P4T” slide switch manufactured (longer than mustang one), one could find usecase for this one as well.

[Yogi B]

Nov 23, 2020 19:22:45 GMT -5 Jaga said:

I wonder if there's schematics exist of this switching idea?

One does now:

I've also remembered another potential issue with this idea: sourcing roller pots that have a more appropriate value & taper (or even some appropriately sized wafers for swapping in). AFAIK it's very difficult to get the appropriate CTS thin-shaft mini-pots in anything other than 50k linear & 1Meg linear, so if CTS mini-pots are what you already have, you might end up needing a new mounting bracket & thumb-wheels -- in addition to new mini-pots.

Alternatively, the 1Meg linear pot would work okay for volume, but we could think of some other use (rather than a regular tone control) for the 50k pot (or another 1Meg pot).

[Jaga]

Nov 24, 2020 0:08:30 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

One does now

Thank you for sharing this!

Actually I don't know yet if I will keep the second vol/tone circuit, I don't find it practical.

[Jaga]

The more I think about the ultimate goal, the more I believe that I should wire all the possible options first of all, listen to them and then decide which ones I like.

[Jaga]

The trickiest part is to keep three single coils, when HB is out-of-phase with itself and only neck or middle is in parrallel with HB to obtain another hum-cancelling combination. Probably, this is possible with the 4p6t rotary.

[Jaga]

Nov 19, 2020 10:45:55 GMT -5 reTrEaD said:

Nov 18, 2020 16:59:42 GMT -5 Jaga said:

Could someone look into this and say if it is correct? It is based on the SingleA/Series/SignleB switching using ON-OFF-ON SPDT switch, and I tried to add the parallel mode.

At the first glance this looks more complicated than 2 DPDT switches, but we could use second pole of the Mustang switch to control another set of pickups/coils. This might be useful to select only hum-cancelling combinations using single coils in HH/HSS/SSSS setup.

Jaga, your wiring will work as-advertised but it will have unused coils shunted when only one pickup is selected. Also, the unused shunted Neck will be hanging from hot when the Bridge (only) is selected.

None of this is a deal-breaker but should be avoided when possible. And it is possible in this case, although that would require using both sides of the Mustang switch. If that locks you out of your ultimate goal, I won't meddle. But if you'd like me to create a drawing on how to accomplish your current truth table more cleanly, I can spend some time on that tomorrow or the next.

For the sake of knowledge I'm really curious what would be the proper Neck/Series/Bridge wiring without shunted coils and hanging from hot issues using both poles of the mustang switch. So far I came up with the following example, but it is not correct at all. I don't get how to connect grounds in Series and Bridge modes. Probably there is some obvious thing which I don't see?

[reTrEaD]

Jaga, no need to worry about connecting an unused coil to ground when it's not in use. So we can connect the bridge (-) to ground at all times. You had the rest of it worked out.

[Jaga]

Dec 2, 2020 21:15:49 GMT -5 reTrEaD said:

Jaga, no need to worry about connecting an unused coil to ground when it's not in use. So we can connect the bridge (-) to ground at all times. You had the rest of it worked out.

Thanks so much. Looks like there is very important key thing which I don't understand why we don't need connect an unused coil to ground.

[Jaga]

And I'm curious is there a possibility to add "parallel overwright" switch to the series option? Don't think it's possible with DPDT.

[t89rex]

Hi forum.

I was wondering whether someone could help me out. I'm new to both three-way switches and humbucker coil-splitting and I'm having some trouble working out how to set up a new Mustang I'm building. I'm aiming for split-off-humbucker and I've come up with the following. Would anyone be able to take a look and see whether I'm even close?

[newey]

t89rex-

Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2!

Assuming the pickup in question is a Seymour Duncan (or one which uses Duncan wire colors), then I'd say you've got it.

There really is no need to connect the green wire to the switch at all, it can just be grounded, since it isn't being switched by the slide switch anyway. The black jumper wire could be eliminated on that side of the switch if you just grounded the second-from-the-top lug so as to ground out the white/red pair for the coil split. This would eliminate a couple of solder connections, and the fewer connections needed, the better from a reliability standpoint.

[t89rex]

Thanks for the quick response newey. Really appreciate it.

Unfortunately I'm a total dope and forgot what I was doing. I'm using wide-range style humbuckers and was told not to try to split them as the poles under the cover would be quieter than the exposed ones. What I'm actually trying to do is get parallel-off-series for each pickup. Back to the drawing board...

I'm wondering whether this is it:

[newey]

That's it. Although I don't know why someone would say you shouldn't split the HBs.

[reTrEaD]

Mar 16, 2021 0:56:51 GMT -5 t89rex said:

I'm wondering whether this is it:

I don't think you want that. If you look at what happens on the right side of the switches in the center position, the hot is connected directly to ground. Good if you only have one pickup because the off position will be silent.. But very bad if you have two and want to select just one. The one that is switched off will kill the sound from the one that's in Series or Parallel mode.

Mar 16, 2021 0:56:51 GMT -5 t89rex said:

Unfortunately I'm a total dope and forgot what I was doing. I'm using wide-range style humbuckers and was told not to try to split them as the poles under the cover would be quieter than the exposed ones.

You mean like these?



Intuitively, I would think three of the strings would be louder on a split using those pickups. But I'm not sure if that's true or how much difference there would be. I haven't tried it myself.

Also if your HB are Fender, you'll be using a different color code than the SD color codes in your drawings.

Regarding connecting the green wire (and bare wire) to the switches, I personally would do so if it falls in line with the wiring needed for the switches. Having all the wires from the pickup cable terminated in close proximity will simplify the wiring.

[newey]

Mar 16, 2021 9:44:46 GMT -5 reTrEaD said:

I don't think you want that. If you look at what happens on the right side of the switches in the center position, the hot is connected directly to ground. Good if you only have one pickup because the off position will be silent.. But very bad if you have two and want to select just one. The one that is switched off will kill the sound from the one that's in Series or Parallel mode.

You know, I looked at that and just missed it. Easy fix, however, just don't short the hot lead to ground in the center position, just disconnect the hot side. To do so, remove the black jumper wire between the lower two lugs on the right-hand side of the diagram and connect the blue wire directly to the lowest-most right-hand lug. Leave the black wire going diagonally from upper left to lower right as is.

[t89rex]

Mar 16, 2021 9:44:46 GMT -5 reTrEaD said:

I don't think you want that. If you look at what happens on the right side of the switches in the center position, the hot is connected directly to ground. Good if you only have one pickup because the off position will be silent.. But very bad if you have two and want to select just one. The one that is switched off will kill the sound from the one that's in Series or Parallel mode.

Thanks reTrEaD. I actually noticed that late last night and spent a good hour trying find a fix without success.

newey, in your suggestion am I missing something or would removing the jumper in the bottom right mean there's no connection to the output in the top switch position? I'm hoping I'm missing something because that's a nice simple solution.

Re: the pickups and splitting, they are the style that reTrEaD posted but not Fender ones. I tend to think the difference in volume wouldn't be huge but then I've never tried it. It was the guy who winds them that said he didn't recommend it and I assume he's given it a go and found it troublesome.

[newey]

Mar 16, 2021 16:48:47 GMT -5 t89rex said:

would removing the jumper in the bottom right mean there's no connection to the output in the top switch position

Your black wire is permanently connected to output via the blue wire. With the slide switch "up" (which is the parallel setting), the red wire and black wire are connected together at the top left lugs, and then both are connected to output via the bottom right lug to the blue wire. All you are doing is eliminating the shorting connection when the switch is in the middle position.

But as I look at this again, my solution does have a (potential) issue, because in the center "off" position, we're turning the black/white coil off by disconnecting the ground wire, meaning that coil will be "hanging from hot". This isn't the end of the world, but we try to avoid hanging coils where possible. And it is quite possible that someone has a better idea than mine . . .

[t89rex]

Oh right. I'd misread.

So in the middle position I'm silencing the entire pickup by breaking the circuit between the coils (because red and white aren't connected) even though the black lead is still connected to the output? Is that right?

Is the potential problem that all that wire is still part of the circuit, adding capacitance for the other pickup when it's on?

[newey]

The green/red coil remains connected at the green wire to ground, but the red is disconnected in the cente rposition. That's no problem, having a coil "hanging from ground" isn't an issue. But a coil wired only to the "hot" output could, in theory, be somewhat noisier. It's one of those things that probably won't make a difference, but you can't be sure it won't make a difference, so better to avoid it where possible.

But there are some schemes where it can't really be avoided, so one lives with it and hopes for the best.

It's not capacitance in the other pickup that is the concern, it's that the long coil of wire, wired only to the "hot" output, could act as an antenna and pull some noise into one's signal.

[reTrEaD]

Mar 16, 2021 16:48:47 GMT -5 t89rex said:

Thanks reTrEaD. I actually noticed that late last night and spent a good hour trying find a fix without success.

I'm glad you didn't spend more time than that on it. There is no truly elegant solution, using the Mustang switches.

If we take stock of all the connections that need to be made in the various position, the one coil wire that can be directly connected without any switch contacts is the green (-) wire from the south coil.

A - In the parallel position, we would like to make THREE connections via switch contacts. The White north (-) to ground, the Red south (+) to the Blue output, and the Black north (+) to the Blue output. But we simply don't have that many contacts available in that position. So the Black north (+) is necessarily directly connected to the Blue output at all times. This means the north coil will hang from hot when the pickup is switched off. Not ideal, be we can live with it.

B - In the off position, we would like to have no connection from the Blue output to any coil wire. But we're stuck with having the Black connected to Blue. (Refer to A, above.) We would also like to connect the Blue output to ground, but only if BOTH pickups are off. This would result in a more silent situation when both pickups are off. Unfortunately I don't see that happening with the off position being between the Parallel and Series positions. Maybe if the off position was at the top and the parallel position was in the middle. idk.

C - In the series position we would like to connect the White north (-) to the Red south (+), creating a series link. We also need the Black north (+) to the Blue output. But that's already connected directly (Refer to A, above.)



Given the specific

Parallel
Off
Series

arrangement, there are a few ways this can be organized with the Mustang switches but all of them will result in an unused coil hanging from hot in the Off position.

Here's one possibility:

[newey]

Mar 18, 2021 23:00:13 GMT -5 reTrEaD said:

Maybe if the off position was at the top and the parallel position was in the middle. idk.

Took a look at this, but I still end up with a hanging coil. Bottom to top, series, parallel, off:




Given that we can't ground the black wire in the "off" position, I can't see any way to avoid the hanging coil, but as we said, not such a big issue that it should deter you from pursuing this scheme. But the switch positions can be reordered if you wish.

[reTrEaD]

Mar 19, 2021 7:59:26 GMT -5 newey said:

Took a look at this, but I still end up with a hanging coil.

That's correct, newey . Refer to A in my previous post. That's immutable.


When I said:

Mar 18, 2021 23:00:13 GMT -5 reTrEaD said:

We would also like to connect the Blue output to ground, but only if BOTH pickups are off. This would result in a more silent situation when both pickups are off. Unfortunately I don't see that happening with the off position being between the Parallel and Series positions. Maybe if the off position was at the top and the parallel position was in the middle. idk.

... I was referring the both-pickups-off position of the switches. Although we still have coils hanging from hot, shorting the hot to ground when both pickups are off will be much quieter than if the hot is 'floating'.

For instance:

[yow]

I'm trying to use a single 3-way slide switch as a pickup selector (replacing a 3-way toggle switch). I have Seymour Duncan hot rails in the bridge, cool rails in the neck. When I wired it using the original 3-way mini-toggle there was a ground wire running from the selector to the back of the volume pot and everything worked well. I've attempted to wire the new switch as shown below (I'm a newbie to guitar wiring) but I'm getting a huge amount of buzz that I believe is a grounding issue (mostly goes away when I touch the strings/metal on the guitar).

reTrEaD, you commented above on what I think is close to what I'm trying to do, but that post had to do with using single coils, though I can't tell if the 3-way slide switch is being used alone as a pickup selector alone nor what the different wires are from the pickups (hot/ground?).



Any help would be greatly appreciated, I've scoured the internet but can't find a solution and my guitar is in pieces on my dining room table



My uneducated guess would be a ground wire from at least one of the pickups should be going to the slide switch.

[reTrEaD]

Apr 16, 2021 15:54:50 GMT -5 yow said:

My uneducated guess would be a ground wire from at least one of the pickups should be going to the slide switch.

yow, the drawing you posted looks legit for SD pickups. You shouldn't need any ground wires from the pickups going to the slide switch.

You should have a bare (ground) wire from each of your pickups. Those can be soldered to the back of the Volume pot along with the Green wires you already have there.

[drrje]

Sept 4, 2020 7:50:10 GMT -5 reTrEaD said:

Hi ravagetheearth

In addition to the problem sumgai noted regarding your lower switch, you're shunting coils when splitting. While this is never a deal-breaker, I prefer to avoid it when possible.

I reworked your diagram slightly.

This is using an on/off/on, right? I'm trying to do this same thing with an DP3T on/on/on -- I wasnt thinking when I ordered the switches and now I'm sitting on em and would love to just use em for this same effect. Would love some help THANK YOU!

BTW, is it possible for it to still cancel the hum when in SPLIT modes? (maybe it already does?)

Thanks again

[newey]

drrje-

Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2!

Feb 26, 2022 13:15:30 GMT -5 drrje said:

BTW, is it possible for it to still cancel the hum when in SPLIT modes? (maybe it already does?)

It already does so. Noticed how the Bridge pickup is wired "inside out" from the standard SD wiring? This allows for the split to the opposite coil, maintaining hum-cancellation when both pickups are split to single coils.

Using SD pickups, the neck coil will be split to the slug (North) coil and the bridge will be split to the South (screw) coil.

This is using an on/off/on, right?

No, these are On-On-On switches, that's what allows for the split coil in the center position.

You can use your switches, just follow the diagram.