Very difficult "dream wiring" for two schaller humbuckers

[seba]

Hi everyone,

I would like to make "dream wiring" for my guitar, but is VERY difficult.

I've got two Schaller humbuckers, model "2in1", and:

- 1 volume pot
- 2 push pull pots
- 3 way toggle switch
- 1 small micro switch

I would like to have:

1. 3-way toggle: down - bridge pickup, middle - all pickups, up - neck pickup.
2. Volume pot is master volume for all combination.
3. Two push-pull pots are tones - one for bridge, one for neck.
4. Push-pull switch between "humbucker" and "single coil" - it means that push-pull pot which control tone for bridge pickup, also make "humbucker" or "single-coil" (down/up) for bridge pickup. Similarly for neck.
5. Micro switch is for north/south coils swap.

Some examples:
1. If I have push-pull tone for bridge PUSH and 3-way toggle DOWN - works only bridge humbucker.
2. If I have push-pull tone for bridge PULL and 3-way toggle DOWN - works only one coil in bridge pickup. Then by micro-switch I can swap north to south or south to north coil. 

Here is template:

[newey]

seba-

Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2!

Sorry, I had to move your thread from the "schematics" subsection.

What you want to do looks do-able, but as far as a diagram, that will take a bit. Off to real work at the moment.

[seba]

Ok, I'm working on this diagram too

[Yogi B]

seba
I can't see a way to achieve this with a SPDT coil swap switch, as switching which coil gets selected would require changing whether the tap (green & yellow wires) is shorted to 'ground' or 'output', but that would also have to be dependent on the position of the toggle switch. Thus the "micro switch" will need upgrading to a DPDT.

Doing this also allows us to separate the wires of the coil splitting tap in order to avoid the unused coil being shorted or left hanging-from-hot, albeit with slightly more complex wiring.

Here's my crack at a diagram, with the assumption that the coil swap switch changes between inner and outer coils (rather than the foremost and rearmost of each pickup):

Of course, with component values and addition of treble-bleed circuitry subject to personal preference.

(Edited)
Something else to consider with this layout is: substituting the coil-swap switch to a 3-way DPDT centre-both, the new centre position would give the option of the humbuckers wired in local parallel, when the push/pulls are up (single coil position) -- however when the push/pulls were down (humbucker position) this would have the side effect of shorting the outer coils to hot. This maybe a worthwhile trade off, however I'm left wondering if this can be achieved without that drawback.

[seba]

Yogi B, You are Great!!!!!! THANKS !!!!

1. Did you make this diagram in some software? I like this graphics! It's very bright and clear.
2. I thought about parallel because it's something between single coil and humbucker but with no hums from single coil. Parallel has less signal strength to series and is similar to single coil but is still humbucker. Bad is, because signal comes from "humbucker area" for strings. So, rather I would like to have "series" instead "parallel".
3. I need to buy DPDT switch

[seba]

Aug 23, 2017 2:38:25 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

Something else to consider with this layout is: substituting the coil-swap switch to a 3-way DPDT centre-both, the new centre position would give the option of the humbuckers wired in local parallel, when the push/pulls are up (single coil position) -- however when the push/pulls were down (humbucker position) this would have the side effect of shorting the outer coils to hot. This maybe a worthwhile trade off, however I'm left wondering if this can be achieved without that drawback.

This is good question. It may be worth but I've never heard sound of this "side effect" on clean and overdrive. 

[newey]

Yogi B-

Appreciate you stepping up to the plate on this one! (As soon as I typed that, I realized the baseball metaphor probably doesn't translate well across the pond . . .)

Yogi's diagram looks good to go. However:

with the assumption that the coil swap switch changes between inner and outer coils (rather than the foremost and rearmost of each pickup):

We need to talk about this. Seba's original post shows his Schaller pickups with the coils, from neck to bridge, as N-S and N-S. If this is indeed the case in reality, then Yogi's diagram will always select a north coil with a south coil, and all the coil split positions will be hum-cancelling (This further assumes identical pickups, but seba says they are, so we're good).

However, now look below seba's Schaller pix to where he has laid out his images of the components, using images of Seymour Duncan HBs. Here, we see that, as is often the case, SD shows a "matched set" of HBs, where the one HB is rotated with respect to the other. With that orientation, the screw coils are the outer coils while both slug coils are inner coils. If seba's pickups are actually in that orientation, then Yogi's scheme is selecting either both N coils or both S- and none of the split-coil positions will be hum-cancelling.

So, seba, you will need to check the orientation of the N and S coils of your Schallers to see whether they follow SD's pattern or not. If they are in reality set up like a set of SDs, yogi's scheme should be modified to ensure hum-cancelling. This can be fairly easily done, but maintaining hum-cancelling is a very worthwhile goal here, so let's be sure before seba fires up his soldering iron.

Also, seba, be aware that, if the coils of your Schaller HBs are identically wound, switching between cutting one coils versus the other is not likely to result in a different sound. If there is any distinction between those coil-cut positions, N or S, it is likely to be very subtle at best, and may well be indistinguishable one from the other. The ability to select which coil of a HB is split is primarily useful for pickups (like SD's "P-Rails") where the two coils are dissimilar, or where the two HBs are being combined with a third pickup,so as to maintain hum-cancelling with the third pickup.

Where the coils are identical, the slight difference in the position of one coil versus the other probably won't be audibly different, particularly at the neck position.

[reTrEaD]

Aug 23, 2017 2:38:25 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

Here's my crack at a diagram, with the assumption that the coil swap switch changes between inner and outer coils (rather than the foremost and rearmost of each pickup)

Yogi, that's very good work. In my opinion, inner/outer is a better choice than foremost/rearmost. Of course to get that, the pickups need to be oriented so you have a SNSN (or NSNS) arrangement. Most 2 HB guitars have their pickups oriented in a SNNS arrangement. Any visible writing on the pickups might look unattractive if one of the pickups is spun around. And where the cable exits the pickup might add some complication. But worst case, one magnet could be flipped (and appropriate changes made to the connections of the pickup with the flipped magnet).

What's nice about what you've done is the inherent hum-cancelling when one north and one south are combined. And the fact that you don't have any hanging from hot or shunted coils.

Aug 23, 2017 2:38:25 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

Something else to consider with this layout is: substituting the coil-swap switch to a 3-way DPDT centre-both, the new centre position would give the option of the humbuckers wired in local parallel, when the push/pulls are up (single coil position) -- however when the push/pulls were down (humbucker position) this would have the side effect of shorting the outer coils to hot. This maybe a worthwhile trade off, however I'm left wondering if this can be achieved without that drawback.

I don't think it will be possible to avoid the shunting of coils in the series mode when the inner/parallel/outer switch is in the parallel mode, if using DPDT push-pull for the 'split' switches. You would need another pole on those to make access to the inner + connection available to the inner/parallel/outer switch, *only* when in the 'split' mode. However that would be possible with S-1 push-push pot (4PDT).

Preference will vary by individual, but in my opinion the wart presented by shunting in the series mode when the inner/parallel/outer is in the parallel mode would be very undesirable. If using push-pulls, I think it best to just do inner/outer rather than inner/parallel/outer. JMO.

But again, fine work sir.

Aug 23, 2017 5:57:41 GMT -5 newey said:

Where the coils are identical, the slight difference in the position of one coil versus the other probably won't be audibly different, particularly at the neck position.

Mostly true if using just one coil but the comb filtering that occurs is very different with inners vs outers.

[Yogi B]

seba

1. Visio and the stencils from The Guitar Stencils Project

2. I disagree that parallel is objectively bad, it's a matter of personal taste. But the parallel positions were optional, and wouldn't exclude the series ones.

3. Yep. (unless you want the parallel option, in which case you might prefer the updated diagram below)

(4.) When I mentioned the "side effect", the more important thing I was trying to point out is that you would end up with only the inner coils active -- when the coil select switch was in the parallel position and the push-pull was in the humbucker (down) position. This should definitely be noticeable! What I presume you were referring to is the "hanging from hot" part, whilst the actual extent of the issue is debatable, I think of it like this: if we can avoid a potential source of noise whilst keeping (almost, if not exactly) the same components and switching arrangement, then why not?

---

Aug 24, 2017 11:04:26 GMT -5 reTrEaD said:

Any visible writing on the pickups might look unattractive if one of the pickups is spun around. And where the cable exits the pickup might add some complication. But worst case, one magnet could be flipped (and appropriate changes made to the connections of the pickup with the flipped magnet).

In this specific case 'upside-down' text shouldn't be an issue, as there doesn't appear to be any on the images I found of seba's "2in1" pickups, furthermore they are rotationally-symmetric insofar as they have 12 hex pole pieces.

For what it's worth, I might as well add that Schaller's installation instructions includes the following, albeit in their native German:

The orientation can be chosen: either the north pole coil in the direction of the neck and the south pole coil in the direction of the bridge or vice versa. It may depend on how the cable is best placed inside the guitar.

Aug 24, 2017 11:04:26 GMT -5 reTrEaD said:

I don't think it will be possible to avoid the shunting of coils in the series mode when the inner/parallel/outer switch is in the parallel mode, if using DPDT push-pull for the 'split' switches. You would need another pole on those to make access to the inner + connection available to the inner/parallel/outer switch, *only* when in the 'split' mode.

The parallel option was a last minute observation, to the extent that I didn't think about the effect on the non-split position until after I posted. However if one really wanted to pursue the parallel option, I'd note that whilst what you say is true, with the inner/parallel/outer switch as a DPDT on/both/on, I'd say a better solution would be to replace that with a 4PDT on/Z/on switch, thus keeping the standard DPDT push-pulls. Something like such:

[seba]

I'am very impressed with the professionalism of this forum! 

Next week I will make both diagrams and see which one is better. 

I'm looking some good soulution for making fast wirings. I thought about "tag boards" and small connectors something like EMG wirings, because it's a lot easier than soldering everything again and again. How you are making wirings? Just soldering?

[newey]

Just soldering?

Yep. One problem with quick connectors like the EMG ones- they're fine if you get your pickups with the connectors already in place. Heck, might as well use them if they're already there. But if you have to add a connector to your pickups, and then add the mating connector to the other side, where the pickup plugs into whatever, then you've got two solder joints- one for each half of the connector- instead of just one. That's two possible points of failure instead of just one.

Connectors of some sort do make it easier to take things apart if you change your mind about something, but I feel it's better to get it all planned out thoroughly in advance, then you shouldn't have to "go back in" anytime soon.

[reTrEaD]

Schaller instructions said:

It may depend on how the cable is best placed inside the guitar.

This would be the only cautionary issue. If the pickup route are shallow and the chosen orientation requires the cable to go under the pickup, that might present a problem which requires deepening the route. Else, life will be good.

Aug 27, 2017 8:24:38 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

with the inner/parallel/outer switch as a DPDT on/both/on, I'd say a better solution would be to replace that with a 4PDT on/Z/on switch

Unlike the single pole Gibson style toggle, there is no such animal as a DPDT on/both/on switch. To achieve that, one would use a 4PDT on/on/on switch (which you have deemed on/Z/on) and wire it to achieve the on/both/on function.

You spotted what I missed. By making the connections to the outer(+) in a parallel path through the push-pull and inner/both/outer switch and making the connection to the inner(+) in a series through the push-pull and inner/both/outer switch, this eliminates the connection of outer(+) to inner(+) when the push-pull is in the pushed (series HB) position.

Good work, Yogi. Very good work.

*like* x∞

[newey]

*like* x∞

And I *like* this idea.

We used to have (in a prior version of Proboards software), a "Karma point" function, whereby a contributor could recognize good work by another by awarding a +1 karma point. We all collected "karma points" as we helped others. Yeah, OK , cheesy as hell, but it served a function.

Somewhere along the line, Proboards ditched this concept. Now we get to reward someone with virtual gifts, for which a price is charged . . .

So I like RT's idea. Whenever you like what someone else has posted, "*like*" it. AFAIK, the asterisks don't implicate any BBC coding, so no worries on that score.

I'll keep track of a person's "*like*"s, and if the total reaches 10, I'll add it to the user's signature. It's a way to build street cred, so to speak.

(that's one "like" for Yogi B, BTW)

[sumgai]

Aug 28, 2017 21:56:11 GMT -5 newey said:

Whenever you like what someone else has posted, "*like*" it.

I'll keep track of a person's "*like*"s, and if the total reaches 10, I'll add it to the user's signature. It's a way to build street cred, so to speak.

Yes, newey and I can "mess" with your signatures... comes as part of the Admin's duties/privileges.

Note to newey: You do realize that 'TrEaD *liked* Yogi an infinite number of times, yes?  You're gonna have to spend an inordinate amount of time adjusting Yogi's signature, or so it appears to me....

sumgai

[Yogi B]

Aug 28, 2017 12:06:09 GMT -5 reTrEaD said:

Unlike the single pole Gibson style toggle, there is no such animal as a DPDT on/both/on switch. To achieve that, one would use a 4PDT on/on/on switch (which you have deemed on/Z/on)

I had always assumed that a six terminal switch with that functionality was very rare -- so much so that I wouldn't know where to acquire one -- however I have a vague memory of coming across an instance of someone somewhere that had one, maybe I'm thinking of a slide switch rather than a toggle?

I'm not sure where I first came across the on/Z/on notation, but I know at least Das Musikding also uses that convention. I like it because it is a visual cue that I'm talking about a switch where in the centre position the common terminals are connected to their counter-clockwise neighbours (when viewed from the bottom), not its mirror image, or something else.

(I was going to say that Z could also be associated with the German word zusammen, to reinforce the idea that in the middle position the shorted terminals are in opposite directions. But anyone who knows either their German or organic chemistry should know that zusammen means together, and in fact I'm getting confused with entgegen)

If we wanted to be a bit more explicit we could perhaps write something like:  | |  /  | |  /  | | , or similar.

---

sumgai
I would read that the other way: reTrEaD is trying to make it so that newey would only ever need adjust my signature exactly once.

In any event, what would take an inordinate amount of time would be tallying up the *like*s that I would give retroactively to you guys.

[col]

Aug 28, 2017 12:06:09 GMT -5 reTrEaD said:

Aug 27, 2017 8:24:38 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

with the inner/parallel/outer switch as a DPDT on/both/on, I'd say a better solution would be to replace that with a 4PDT on/Z/on switch

Unlike the single pole Gibson style toggle, there is no such animal as a DPDT on/both/on switch. To achieve that, one would use a 4PDT on/on/on switch (which you have deemed on/Z/on) and wire it to achieve the on/both/on function.

I'm not so sure about that:

www.mojotone.com/guitar-parts/guitarSwitches_x/DPDT-Mini-Toggle-Switch-On-On-On

What's 8012c?

[Yogi B]

Aug 29, 2017 10:12:23 GMT -5 col said:

What's 8012c?

From the description, with added emphasis:

Double Pole Double Throw mini toggle switches control four circuits, allowing only two circuits to be energized at the same time. The center position one circuit on both sides of the switch are connected (See chart below 8012C).

Thus it's a  | |  /  | |  /  | |  or  | |  /  | |  /  | |  type switch.

(Whereas, reTrEaD is discussing is the existence of a  | |  /  ¦¦  /  | |  type switch.)
 

[col]

Yeah, I'm familiar with the types of switches to which reTrEaD was referring. You are probably right - I was looking at the table and found it less than clear. I have found several references to the second type of switch you sketched, but no direct references to suppliers:

www.unofficialwarmoth.com/index.php?topic=17675.0

(Unless I'm mistaken) there are no set naming conventions for on-on-on types of switches. In the above, Line6man suggests that 'on-on-no' denotes a switch shorts across all three terminals on each pole in the centre position. I also came across this references:

hermeticoguitar.blogspot.com/2012/07/wiring-diy-part-03.html

And this variation:

music-electronics-forum.com/t44447/

They could be wrong, of course. I have seen references to these mythical (or, at least, very elusive) switches at Gnuts too. Is it just rumour? It seems that a switch like this should exist.

[reTrEaD]

Aug 29, 2017 11:08:33 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

(Whereas, reTrEaD is discussing is the existence of a  | |  /  ¦¦  /  | |  type switch.)
 

More accurately, I was discussing the non-existence of said switch.

Aug 29, 2017 17:33:13 GMT -5 col said:

It seems that a switch like this should exist.

Seems so, but that isn't our reality.

Aug 29, 2017 17:33:13 GMT -5 col said:

hermeticoguitar.blogspot.com/2012/07/wiring-diy-part-03.html

That page is rife with bad information.
1 - SPDT on-off-on does exist. SPDT does NOT exist.
2 - DPDT on-off-on does exist. DPDT on-on-on does exist but ONLY in the 'type 2' flavor.
3 - 3PDT on-off-on does exist. 3PDT on-on-on does NOT exist
4 - 4PDT on-off-on does exist. 4PDT on-on-on exist but ONLY in the 'type 2' flavor.

Note1: Once upon a time WD music marketed a 'Kent Armstrong' 4PDT switch where two poles were on-off-on and two poles were on-on-on (in the type 2 arrangement) but they are no longer available.

Note2: SP3T (and DP3T) mini-toggles exist but it's just a DPDT (or 4PDT) on-on-on with a permanent jumper between two (four) of the lugs.

[newey]

RT has it right- only the "type 2" on-on-on flavor exist AFAIK- and I've looked.

However, I do recall seeing the "Kent Armstrong" 4P switch recently for sale somewhere- I just can't recall where.

Also, it should be noted that, when searching for guitar switches, I narrow the search criteria to focus on only those switches that would be suitable for guitar use, size-wise. Some of these other switches may indeed exist in other (read: bigger) form factors.

[reTrEaD]

Aug 28, 2017 23:49:58 GMT -5 sumgai said:

Yes, newey and I can "mess" with your signatures... comes as part of the Admin's duties/privileges.

You can also mess with forum titles. Yogi has skills. 'Apprentice Shielder' doesn't suit him.

[newey]

You can also mess with forum titles. Yogi has skills. 'Apprentice Shielder' doesn't suit him.

True. The titles are set automatically, based strictly on post count, but I'll see what I can do.

[sumgai]

'TrEaD,

<rant>

Yes, we can ratchet up someone's post count, thus giving rise to a 'promotion' that wasn't intended by Proboards.  That lack of foresight on Proboard's part irritates both newey and I to no end, let me assure you.  This isn't a script-kiddie Forum, it's based on the give-and-take of valuable information, said information requiring skills and experience well above those possessed by the average Joe Bleaux.  I think we're all in agreement here that Proboards has exhibited exemplary skills of their own, by the hiring of more and more code monkeys that have no idea how the real world works.  If they were any more malicious, I'd have to call them script kiddies. 

Bah!

</rant>

newey and I will discuss this off-line.  We certainly don't want to open a Pandora's box of unintended consequences.  Yogi isn't the only Nut who posts just infrequently enough to keep his post count down, but exhibits a formidable skill level when he does post. 

sumgai

[reTrEaD]

Yes, we can ratchet up someone's post count

Bad plan. Let's not go there. And I just noticed your 'Master Fwipper' title isn't actually where the forum rank resides. So if you dubbed Yogi as 'Prodigal Sun' or somesuch, he'd still have the same 'Apprentice Shielder' rank above his stars.

[sumgai]

'TrEaD,

I changed my own Title, true, but if I change anyone else's Title, then the next time they advance (due to increased post count), the Title reverts to whatever the rankings call for. I suppose that once a Nut reaches the top level, the Title would stay as I set it, but that's a guess.

EDIT: No, that's a fact.  A long time ago, I set JohnH's Title to "Premier Mastermind", after someone posted the fact that John had been (minorly) featured in an article in Premier Guitar.  That hasn't changed, which I assume is due to his being already at the top of the rankings.

Like I said, newey and I are hashing this out, off-line.

[Yogi B]

Aug 29, 2017 5:33:07 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

I have a vague memory of coming across an instance of someone somewhere that had one

What I'm probably thinking about (or at least is another mention of the non-existent switch) is over on wolf 's site at 1728.org/guitar.htm.

Specifically:

There are 2 special cases of DPDT switches, pictured in diagrams 'C' and 'D'.
Diagram C shows the middle position of the more common type of "DPDT center-on switch". Here the common terminals connect to the top and bottom terminals simultaneously. This is the typical DPDT center on switch that you would find at Radio Shack and most electronic parts suppliers.
Diagram D shows the middle position of a highly specialized type of DPDT center-on switch. Here the common terminals connect as shown in the diagram.
Some refer to this as a "DPDT on/on/on switch" but as you can see, the switch in Diagram C could be referred to in the same way. The biggest use of this switch is for wiring humbuckers in series / coil-cut / parallel. This is the only way you can get all 3 options in one switch.

So not only does he state that such a switch exists, but that it's the most common centre-on DPDT, twice! There's also a diagram elsewhere on the site that makes use of such a switch:

---

Aug 28, 2017 12:06:09 GMT -5 reTrEaD said:

...Gibson style toggle...

Thinking on that (and coincidentally the above diagram), I was already aware of the Switchcraft toggle switches for use on three pickup guitars which aren't quite what we're looking at, but are a step in the right direction...

... then I found this, the Switchcraft EP-4378-000:

A switch for use in double neck guitars which is essentially two regular SG-style toggle switches on one frame. And are available from at least two sources: Allparts and Vision Guitar

In response to newey's point about size, it is certainly intended to be suitable for guitar use, but in far more limited situations due to the fact that it's a helluva lot bigger than a 4PDT micro switch. Thus I can't really see why anyone would use it over a 4PDT which achieves a superset of the functionality. Maybe for use as a main toggle switch for people who would prefer something meatier to grab? But for that purpose I'd be happy enough with a Dimarzio EP1111.

[reTrEaD]

Sept 1, 2017 12:13:42 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

So not only does he state that such a switch exists, but that it's the most common centre-on DPDT, twice!

Wolf has been a good contributor on GN2 and there's quite a bit of valuable info on his site. But he got that one wrong.

Sept 1, 2017 12:13:42 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

... then I found this, the Switchcraft EP-4378-000:

Nice switch. I wasn't aware of that one. Gibson/Switchcraft also has another mutant for their 3HB guitars. archive.gibson.com/Files/schematics/lpafwiring.gif

Sept 1, 2017 12:13:42 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

Thus I can't really see why anyone would use it over a 4PDT which achieves a superset of the functionality. Maybe for use as a main toggle switch for people who would prefer something meatier to grab? But for that purpose I'd be happy enough with a Dimarzio EP1111.

I haven't used the EP1111 but I reckon just from looking at it, it will have a rather heavy 'feel' compared to the Gibson style toggle. I do like the increased functionality though.