oscarok
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Post by oscarok on Aug 29, 2017 0:14:43 GMT -5
Hi! Recently I got a pair of EMGs at a good price and I want to install them on my Jackson superstrat. I swapped original PUs (HSH) but since here where I live is very difficult to get a 3way blade switch I have to use the original 5 way switch (a regular "import switch") that comes with the guitar. I've been reading a lot and I saw some people say you can wire it in a way to get this options from the switch: 1) Neck PU 2) Both PUs 3) Both PUs 4) Both PUs 5) Bridge PU I know my EMGs can't be splited or phase inverted, and I wouldn't mind middle positions repeating as long as there are no dead spots. So far I can make each PU work alone (positions 1 and 5) but I don't know how to wire the switch to get positions 2, 3 and 4 working. The idea is to have 2 independent volumes, no tone pot. This is the closest diagram I could get looking around (I'd need to wire 2 vol, no tone) i0.wp.com/i57.photobucket.com/albums/g223/Creative_Cliche/WiringforGuitar.jpgI know it would be easier with a 3 way switch but they are really difficult to get where I live, so any suggestion will be much appreciated. Thanks in advance.
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Post by newey on Aug 29, 2017 22:28:47 GMT -5
oscarok-
Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2!
The diagram you posted is hard to decipher, but it doesn't look right to my eyes. It looks as if the diagram is wirng the volume pot as a blend between the pickups, and it's not clear to me how the switch is actually accomplishing anything.
With 2 volume controls, those would be wired "across" their respective pickups, before the 5-way switch. See any LP wiring diagram (with 4 pots) to see how to do this.
To wire the 5-way switch as you want, with the 3 middle positions all giving you B + N:
First, you must ascertain that the two poles of the import 5-way switch are not either connected together internally, or via an external jumper. Your switch should have 8 lubs, arranged like this:
1-2-3-C C-1-2-3.
Make sure there's not a tiny wire connecting the two "C" ("common") terminals. And, if you have a multimeter (or just a simple continuity tester), make sure that the two "C" lugs are not internally connected- some import switches are that way. Wire it as follows:
1) N hot wire goes to one common lug.
2) B hot wire goes to the other common lug
3) On the neck side, lugs 1 and 2 are connected together, and then lug 1 is connecteds to the output jack tip connection.
4) On the bridge side, lugs 2 and 3 are connected together, and lug 3 is connected to output jack tip.
5) Pickup ground wires get grounded.
Note that my designations of "1" and "3" are arbitrary. You will need to orient the switch correctly such that the lever points in the correct direction for the N and B positions, respectively, and then number the lugs accordingly. Also note that the lever position is opposite of the lugs which are connected.
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Post by reTrEaD on Aug 29, 2017 23:23:54 GMT -5
The diagram you posted is hard to decipher, but it doesn't look right to my eyes. It looks as if the diagram is wirng the volume pot as a blend between the pickups, and it's not clear to me how the switch is actually accomplishing anything. That's a very odd wiring diagram indeed. Also, note that the switch in the diagram is marked "5WAY SWITCH FOR 2HUM". This is a special switch Ibanez used for 2HB guitars that allowed Neck Series / Neck Parallel / Neck Series in parallel with Bridge Series / Inner Singles / Bridge Series. Although it looks like a three pickup 5-way from the outside, the guts are completely different. The good news is, oscarok's switch is probably the same as a 5-way for three pickups even if it looks the same as the switch in the diagram. Make sure there's not a tiny wire connecting the two "C" ("common") terminals. Even if there is, that wouldn't be a problem. Just use the joined commons as the output and connect one pickup to '1-2' and the other to '2-3' (I'd need to wire 2 vol, no tone) If you have two pots to work with, your options are: 2 vol, no tone or 1 vol, 1 tone 1 vol, 1 tone would have no ill effects but won't allow you to blend. 2 vol, no tones will allow you to blend, but only somewhat. When both pickups are selected, turning one volume to all the way to zero will kill the sound from both pickups. If that is not acceptable, you might prefer 1 vol, 1 tone.
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oscarok
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Post by oscarok on Aug 30, 2017 22:43:25 GMT -5
Hey there! Thanks for all the info. So that wiring I posted seems to be useless. News are I searched more and I found a page with some wiring diagrams from EMG's pre-solderless era. One interesting wiring I found has a 5 way switch with 2 active pickups and a passive single coil. My switch is different form that one but I think I can understand it, and as I said my guitar is a HSH superstrat, so the middle passive single coil will stay in the guitar for cosmetic reasons. If I can make it work with the other pickups that would be a nice plus. Here goes the diagram: www.sonic.net/~emgman/pdf/2EMG%201Pass%201va%201vt%205wb.pdf(Anyone with EMGs can check that page. There are many options) So, in that diagram there's a passive pickup in bridge position with it's own volume. My idea is to have the passive pickup in middle position going straight, no volume or tone. And 2 EMGs with independent volume pots in Neck and Bridge. I know some might say that's strange and I'd love to have one volume and tone pot for each pickup, but this is what I can do with the things and pot cavities I have. If the sound it's too bright I can modify EQ from the amp (a 25w tube mini Rectifier). So, if it's possible, I'd like to get from the 5 way switch: 1) Neck PU 2) Neck and middle PUs 3) Something (can be all 3 pickups, just middle, or Neck+Bridge. It can be anything. It's an extra, my main concern are the other positions) 4) Bridge and Middle PUs 5) Bridge PU This is just an option to make the middle pickup usable since it will be placed in the guitar anyway. Maybe I can try to draw a diagram so you can check it. But anyway, if you have any suggestion I will carefully read it. Your opinions have been very helpful. Thanks guys!
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Post by newey on Aug 31, 2017 6:23:36 GMT -5
The regular 5-way switch that you have limits what can be done with the middle position. If position 2 is to be N + M and position 4 is to be M + B, then you're stuck with middle alone at position 3. There's just no other way to wire that switch. If you want something else in the middle, then either 2 or 4 has to change as well, or you'd need a more versatile switch like a Superswitch.
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oscarok
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Post by oscarok on Aug 31, 2017 19:06:43 GMT -5
Ok, no problem about that middle position! It can be middle pickup alone, that's ok for me. I draw a (very primitive) diagram. I'd like to know if the connections between pots and the switch are ok, and connections in general too.
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oscarok
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Post by oscarok on Aug 31, 2017 19:12:14 GMT -5
Here's a "template" of the diagram, in case someone wants to modify or explain something wrong I might have done.
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Post by newey on Aug 31, 2017 19:51:28 GMT -5
Two issues, oscarok:
1) You have all three pickups wired to one pole of the switch, and the commons from that pole then connects to the Bridge vol. pot. This means that all three pickups will have the bridge vol- it becomes a master volume. Meanwhile, the neck vol pot has no pickups connected to it.
2) You have the volume pots wired in a "vintage" wiring style, with the input from the switch going to the "wiper", i.e., the center lug. This will work, and there are those who like their pots wired that way. The more modern approach would swap the input and output wires, leaving the third, grounded wire as is. The difference is that, wired as you show it, turning the vol. pot to zero won't fully turn the pickup all the way "off".
As to the second issue, it's a matter of preference only. For the first, if what you want is individual volumes for the N and B, wire the "hot" output from each pickup to the clockwise lug of its pot (the one that's not grounded). Wire the center lug of each pot to the respective N and B lugs of the switch. M then goes to the M lug, all on the same side of the switch. The Common lug from that side of the switch then is wired to the output jack tip connection.
This is what we mean by wiring the pot "across" its pickup. It comes first in line after the pickup and before the switch.
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oscarok
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Post by oscarok on Aug 31, 2017 20:41:46 GMT -5
Ok, I'm analyzing your corrections and I'll upload a new diagram. Thanks newey! Edit: I tried to follow your suggestions. This is what I've got, let me know if I have to make some changes (sometimes I take some time to understand technical English) I have a little doubt, is that grounding of the passive pickup ok? Thanks again.
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Post by newey on Sept 1, 2017 6:13:24 GMT -5
In this latest version, we seem to be missing the "hot" wires from the EMGs. And, both outer lugs of the pots are shown grounded.
Wire both vol. pots as follows
Clockwise lug = pickup "hot" wire
Center (wiper) lug = to switch
Counterclockwise ("anticlockwise", for our British cousins) lug = to ground
Be aware that most modern pots are plastic inside. You have to be careful when soldering ground wires to the backs of them; apply too much heat for too long and the insides of the pot will melt. Most of the modders here avoid this by using "star grounding", in which all the grounds are collected at a single point, which is then wired in turn to the output jack sleeve. I usually use a washer to solder all the grounds wires onto, and then screw the washer to the side of the cavity with a screw to secure it. If you do this, you have to sand the shiny surface of the washer a bit to get good solder adhesion.
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Post by reTrEaD on Sept 1, 2017 14:44:30 GMT -5
This is just an option to make the middle pickup usable since it will be placed in the guitar anyway. Worth doing, imho. But passive pickups and active pickups don't play well together. The active pickup will dominate when placed in parallel with a passive. Because of that, you might consider putting the middle pickup an the end of the sequence. That will allow you to have Neck and Bridge (a good combination) and only one position were an active (or both actives) are combined with the passive middle. Either Neck Neck and Bridge Bridge Bridge and Middle * Middle or Middle Middle and Neck * Neck Neck and Bridge Bridge In either of these configurations, the (*) could be wired to give Neck and Middle and Bridge instead. -------------------- Regardless of the sequence (the one you started with or one of those I suggested) you will get best results by wiring the middle pickup directly to the 250k pot. One half of the 5-way will be used to connect either the neck or bridge (or both) to the 25k pot. The other half will be used to select the 250k pot or 25k pot or both pots.
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oscarok
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Post by oscarok on Sept 1, 2017 20:44:02 GMT -5
In this latest version, we seem to be missing the "hot" wires from the EMGs. And, both outer lugs of the pots are shown grounded. Wire both vol. pots as follows Clockwise lug = pickup "hot" wire Center (wiper) lug = to switch Counterclockwise ("anticlockwise", for our British cousins) lug = to ground I might be misreading something, but the hot wires from EMGs are inside the screen cable (the "blue" ones), so in the diagram I ground the "blue" wire, and then I take the hot wire (green that it's inside the blue one) to the clockwise lug of each pot. Sorry if I'm confusing something.
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oscarok
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Post by oscarok on Sept 1, 2017 21:27:48 GMT -5
This is just an option to make the middle pickup usable since it will be placed in the guitar anyway. Worth doing, imho. But passive pickups and active pickups don't play well together. The active pickup will dominate when placed in parallel with a passive. Because of that, you might consider putting the middle pickup an the end of the sequence. That will allow you to have Neck and Bridge (a good combination) and only one position were an active (or both actives) are combined with the passive middle. Either Neck Neck and Bridge Bridge Bridge and Middle * Middle or Middle Middle and Neck * Neck Neck and Bridge Bridge In either of these configurations, the (*) could be wired to give Neck and Middle and Bridge instead. -------------------- Regardless of the sequence (the one you started with or one of those I suggested) you will get best results by wiring the middle pickup directly to the 250k pot. One half of the 5-way will be used to connect either the neck or bridge (or both) to the 25k pot. The other half will be used to select the 250k pot or 25k pot or both pots. Those are very interesting options! How should I wire it to get a position as you mention with all PUs combined? I have to say that both pots are 25k, one for each EMG. That's why the passive pickup it's wired directly to the switch. Also because it's probable that most of the time I'd switch between neck and bridge with different volumes, as I do with my SG to get "clean" and distorted sounds from the amp. Also, in case I use the sequence I draw, if I choose positions 2 or 4 with EMG's volume at let's say 40% maybe they could work with the passive PU. Maybe. Example: position 4 with neck pickup at 40% and middle, playing clean, and then switching to just bridge humbucker at full volume for distortion. I don't know. Maybe they are too "hot" to get something like I did with the standard HSH on the guitar (although those humbuckers were pretty intense). Anyway, this is my "metal" guitar, If I can get more options is great, if not I have a Strat and a SG to play clean and "classic" rock. This thread started as a way to use a 5 way switch with 2 EMGs, the rest is a plus and knowledge for the future too Thanks!
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Post by reTrEaD on Sept 1, 2017 23:19:22 GMT -5
Okay, that's not a deal breaker. I still think having the middle at one end or the other in the sequence is still a better choice.
Let's look at one possibility. Middle is at the 'neck' end of the sequence.
Middle All 3 Neck Neck and Bridge Bridge
The neck and bridge each have their own volume control and are wired directly to their control. Middle has no volume control
Wiper of the Bridge volume is connected to both the B and N lugs of the first half of the 5-way. Wiper of the Neck volume control is connected to the M lug of the first half of the 5-way. Common of the first half of the 5-way is connected to the M and B lugs of the second half of the 5-way. Middle pickup is connected to the N lug of the second half of the 5-way. Common of the second half of the 5-way is connected to the output jack.
The 'All 3' position is likely to be rather unremarkable. The actives will dominate and even when rolled back, those 25k pots will seriously load the Middle pickup, making its contribution rather dull. Still, it may be of some use. And the 'Neck and Bridge' position is imho a very useful combination that was missing from your sequence. So I'd consider this a win.
Also, the 'Middle' only selection might be too bright for your tastes, without a pot loading it down. But that would be easily mitigated by wiring a fixed resistor in parallel with the middle pickup.
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oscarok
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Post by oscarok on Sept 2, 2017 10:25:12 GMT -5
Okay, that's not a deal breaker. I still think having the middle at one end or the other in the sequence is still a better choice. Let's look at one possibility. Middle is at the 'neck' end of the sequence. Middle All 3 Neck Neck and Bridge Bridge The neck and bridge each have their own volume control and are wired directly to their control. Middle has no volume control Wiper of the Bridge volume is connected to both the B and N lugs of the first half of the 5-way. Wiper of the Neck volume control is connected to the M lug of the first half of the 5-way. Common of the first half of the 5-way is connected to the M and B lugs of the second half of the 5-way. Middle pickup is connected to the N lug of the second half of the 5-way. Common of the second half of the 5-way is connected to the output jack. The 'All 3' position is likely to be rather unremarkable. The actives will dominate and even when rolled back, those 25k pots will seriously load the Middle pickup, making its contribution rather dull. Still, it may be of some use. And the 'Neck and Bridge' position is imho a very useful combination that was missing from your sequence. So I'd consider this a win. Also, the 'Middle' only selection might be too bright for your tastes, without a pot loading it down. But that would be easily mitigated by wiring a fixed resistor in parallel with the middle pickup. Ok, I'm gonna trust in your advice and wire it that way. I'm still considering to wire it to get Neck and middle instead of all 3 PUs (that would probably sound like a "weird Neck+Bridge" position, don't you think?) I do think the overall sound might be pretty bright. I mean, EMGs tend to be bright too, and none of them have tone pot so I might change eq on the amp (most of the time I use tone at 100% on my other guitars). But what value of resistor would you suggest in case I want to tame middle pickup's brightness? Something around 250k?
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Post by reTrEaD on Sept 2, 2017 18:25:29 GMT -5
I'm still considering to wire it to get Neck and middle instead of all 3 PUs (that would probably sound like a "weird Neck+Bridge" position, don't you think?) Neck and Middle seems a better choice to me as well. Not so much because all 3 would sound weird but because you stand a better chance of getting a usable sound if the passive is competing with just one active. Change the to make that happen would be connect the wiper of the bridge volume to just the B lug of the first half of the 5-way, instead of the B lug and N lug. All other connections remain the same. Normally a single coil pickup sounds best with a 125k load. (Two 250k pots, volume and tone 250k essentially in parallel works out to 125k) So let's guess at a 250k resistor in parallel with your middle pickup to brighten it up because your amp settings will probably be compensating for the somewhat bright EMGs. Closest values in common fixed resistors would be either 220k or 270k. You won't hear a huge difference between them. If the result is too bright, change to a 150k or 120k resistor. If too dark, maybe a 470k.
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oscarok
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Post by oscarok on Sept 2, 2017 20:17:57 GMT -5
Maybe I can try to get a 500k trimpot. That way I could choose the value. Don't know if there's something different in the wiring for that case. I'll probably do it on Monday/Tuesday because stores here are closed on Sundays.
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Post by JohnH on Sept 3, 2017 3:10:52 GMT -5
Just a thought on pursuing the idea of getting M involved as a passive pickup along with the N and B actives:
Rather than try to force a viable parallel combo, I think it would work much better as a series combo. The hot output from the neck active volume pot could feed through the M pickup to get to the jack. M will not be loaded by the active pickup and just add its own bright clear signal on top. The neck volume pot will fade smoothly from M only to N+M, all with about the impedance of the passive M pickup.
There would be various ways to switch such an option, but using the current switch, I could envisage B, B+N, N, N, N+M where the last one blends down to M only.
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Post by reTrEaD on Sept 3, 2017 12:51:36 GMT -5
Maybe I can try to get a 500k trimpot. That way I could choose the value. Don't know if there's something different in the wiring for that case. A trimpot would work. Nothing special about the wiring to it. Use the wiper and one of the end lugs. Measure between those points before you install it in the circuit and dial it in for something in the general vicinity of 250k ohms. You won't be able to measure the resistance when it's in parallel with the pickup. As with a fixed resistor, one connection goes to the lug on the second half of the 5-way to which the middle pickup is connected. The other connection will go to ground.
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Post by reTrEaD on Sept 3, 2017 13:16:36 GMT -5
using the current switch, I could envisage B, B+N, N, N, N+M where the last one blends down to M only. There's a lot to like about that, John. The series combination will give a much better result than the parallel combination of a passive and active. The second position from the neck end of the sequence is redundant, but that doesn't seem so important that it would be a deal breaker. However, getting M only would required dialing the Neck volume to zero. It boils down to whether getting the Middle Only by direct switching is more important than having a better sound when using Neck and Middle together. Alternately, if a DPDT switch or (push-pull pot for one of the actives) could be used, that opens the door to adding the Middle in series with Neck, Neck and Bridge, or Bridge. And a return to the original target of N / N+B / N+B / N+B / B for the 5-way sequence. However, given the fact a simple 3-way switch is hard to get in his location, a 25k push-pull is also likely to be difficult to acquire.
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oscarok
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Post by oscarok on Sept 3, 2017 15:59:30 GMT -5
Some interesting ideas going on there JohnH and reTrEaD!!! How could that wiring be done? I can figure out the other wiring ideas, this one I don't get it. EMGs would be in parallel and then the passive would be in series with the neck? I remember having read that wiring 81s and 85s in series can be difficult because their outputs are too high and also because the preamps inside them could be oversaturated. Don't know if that's true. Also, I can understand what kind of sound could be possible to achieve wiring in parallel Neck and Middle pickups (if the neck doesn't make middle PU unnoticeable it should sound close to the standard HSH configuration). But what kind of sound would I get in series? That won't sound like a Strat wired in series haha Yeah, I don't know how they don't have a simple Tele switch. I even had problems getting a regular 25k pot because the ones they import here didn't fit in my guitar. One guy at an electronic store told me the ones I needed didn't even exist, and that wasn't true :facepalm: So, I have to work with my limitations of knowledge and materials haha But well, that can stimulate imagination I could get a DPDT switch but it should be placed inside the pot cavity, so that wouldn't be very useful.
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Post by JohnH on Sept 4, 2017 15:07:45 GMT -5
Here's a basic diagram using any standard switch: With more switching, or a superswitch, other variants would be possible, but this one would be easy as a way to try it out.
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oscarok
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Post by oscarok on Sept 4, 2017 19:03:46 GMT -5
I have a dumb question: That resistor is the Middle pickup, right?
The lug from the switch to the output would be the one known as "common"?
I'm a little bit confused about the lugs from that switch in the diagram. My switch has the sequence Bridge, Middle, Neck, Common, Common, Bridge, Middle, Neck.
It's highly unlikely for me to get a superswitch here, or I would have used one on my Strat, but what kind of other variants could be possible to achieve with one of those? Just in case someone else reads this in the future.
Thanks!
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Post by JohnH on Sept 4, 2017 21:16:02 GMT -5
The diagram is only using 1/2 of your switch. the 'out' corresponds to a 'c'. On the switch, the bridge, middle abd neck lugs correspind to diagram lugs 1,3 and 5. We have put the neck to where middle would usually go.
With a superswitch, there is a free choice of the order of combinations, and instead of a repeated neck setting, there could be a dedicated middle-only setting.
Although with your switch, the diagram is only using half the switch, I couldnt come up with anything really compelling to do wifh the other half.
The middle is intended to be drawn as a coil.
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oscarok
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Post by oscarok on Sept 5, 2017 0:27:37 GMT -5
Ok, now I see it! I'm gonna try this and the other option and then I'll decide which one I like best.
Yes! I misread the symbols, although I realized the pots were there as variable resistors.
Thanks to everybody, you have been really helpful!
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oscarok
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Post by oscarok on Sept 5, 2017 23:27:50 GMT -5
Well, today I soldered the first option, suggested by reTrEaD. The sequence I get is:
Middle Middle and Neck (parallel) Neck Neck and Bridge Bridge
The problem I'm experimenting is that Neck PU (EMG 81) has way more output than the other 2 PU. It would be logical if that was just compared with the single coil, but why compared to a EMG 85? I mean, the 85 has just a little bit more output than the single coil.
Could it be because I wired the ground of the middle PU to the Bridge pot's chassis?
Pots work OK, one for each EMG, there are no cracks or noises when I use the switch.
Height of PUs is not a cause, I tried adjusting neck PU at a way bigger distance from the strings than Bridge and middle.
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Post by newey on Sept 6, 2017 5:35:03 GMT -5
I can't imagine that would cause what you're describing.
Was this EMG working, to your knowledge, before you put it in this wiring? I don't recall whether you said previously that these were new pickups, or new to you, or if you had used them in the guitar before.
If the pickup was know to you to be working OK, then I'd suspect a bad connection with that pickup.
Unfortunately, troubleshooting active circuits is a lot more involved than with passive circuitry. There's probably a limit to how much hep we can be over the web.
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oscarok
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Post by oscarok on Sept 6, 2017 12:26:03 GMT -5
I bought them used, but I had the chance to test them on the seller's guitar. I'm gonna check the connections, maybe the batteries are not supplying enough due to a bad wiring. I don't know
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Post by newey on Sept 6, 2017 16:04:50 GMT -5
Another possibility, since each EMG has its own pot, is a faulty pot.
Are the values of both pots the same? If so, what are they? 25KΩ??
And, did you check the pots with a multimeter prior to installing them?
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oscarok
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Post by oscarok on Sept 6, 2017 18:38:18 GMT -5
Now I know the problem! I've soldered the pots wrong. I made it work now but I'll have to solder many things again haha. So, maybe tomorrow it will be ready. Thanks Edit: It's perfectly working now! Yesterday I had a rehearsal and the guitar sounded nice. I really like the sound of Neck and Middle in parallel, It's nice for clean sounds (I like it more than just neck or middle). I'm considering wiring it to get a middle + bridge option, perhaps it's useful. I'm also considering changing the resistance value I used from middle PU to ground to make it a little less bright, I used a 150k resistor and a 100k trimpot together in series.
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