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Post by lordquilton on Sept 15, 2017 11:14:40 GMT -5
Hello all, I just put new pickups in my strat, so I'm reviewing wiring possibilities. Right now there's a master volume, master tone and a no load blender pot. All 250k. The tone control is wired modern style, and there will be a treble bleed 120k/1nf.
In the course of searching the site for threads that match my idea (which I'll get to shortly), I found a thread by moosie with a similar title to this one. My blender pot is currently set up to sweep between the neck and bridge, but a post by JohnH in that thread alludes to involving all three pickups by wiring the output of the blender pot to the common lug of the switch that also goes to the volume pot. Does that mean that the lugs 1 and 2 of the blender are receiving the neck and bridge?
Moving on, I don't have any clear idea about how to achieve what I'm imagining, so rather than speculating I will just describe what I want to happen.
First of all, I'd like to be able to quickly bring the signal from the blender pot in and out of circuit with a push push master tone pot. I know push pull's are more reliable, but particularly with strat knobs they're too clumsy for what I have in mind.
The second part is like a blower switch type of thing, I'd like to take the output of whatever pickups are currently selected/blended, and send them straight to the output jack. I want this function on the same push push as the first function. Though I couldn't actually tell you why, using the same push push sounds problematic to me.
The master volume pot I'm using is a Seymour Duncan "YJM", engineered to make "violining" very easy to do. It's an excellent pot, and I really don't want to surrender it, hence the drive for just one switching pot. However I do have a DPDT toggle switch I can mount on the pickguard.
So, in my imagination it goes like this:
In the first position of the toggle switch, the blender is engaged in the circuit by hitting the push push. In the second position of the toggle switch, hitting the push push introduces the blender pot and also takes the output of the 5 way straight to the jack.
Is this possible, and what would be the best way to go about it?
The new pickups I mentioned above are hand wound, low output, vintage reproduction types. As such, I'm inclined to keep things simple and just let the pickups speak for themselves. On the other hand, if there are simple modifications that can bring out some really worthwhile tones from already great sounding pickups, why waste them? Suggestions along these lines would be welcome!
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Post by sumgai on Sept 15, 2017 12:35:50 GMT -5
This will depend on how your blend pot is wired, or will be wired when all else is done. But for the most part, yes, it can be done. Do you have a current schematic of what's in the guitar now? Quite easily done, no problem there. Well, there's no physical reason why you couldn't do this (a 4PDT switch will do the job), but I'm skeptical of the practical applications. To me, it would make more sense to be able to 'blend' without being forced to bypass the vol/tone controls (the 'blower' function). Same goes for the other way around, you may wish to "go blower" without the blend function in the circuit. That will fulfill one of the two functions - the other can be had via a standard DPDT push-pull pot, but you don't like those (and I understand your reasons for that, I agree with you on that score). Sadly, the only push-push pot of which I am aware is a 4PDT unit from Fender, nomenclated as the much-ballyhooed S-1 switch. If you insist on having both functions on the same switch, this will do the job, but you already know my views on that particular subject. Yes, it's possible, but now you've added a level of complexity - i.e. in your scenario, why not just use the toggle switch to directly make the blower function as intended? Stated more succinctly, if you want the blower function, you must perform two physcial switching operations... is that really your desire?
And using one switch to control the function of another switch? That just begs for problems somewhere along the line, trust me on that one.
HTH
sumgai
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Post by lordquilton on Sept 15, 2017 19:32:42 GMT -5
Hiya Sumgai, it's nice to see you. Couldn't get an image to embed, here's a link. Simple Blender WiringOh, there's a treble bleed on the volume pot too, forgot to put that in the diagram. Perhaps I didn't make myself clear enough, this is what I want to do. I think I see what you are driving at, it makes more sense to have two independent controls. Actually, I haven't come across you holding forth on that subject yet. I imagine (like most things from Fender) that they are somewhat overpriced? Part of it is ergonomics, I want to engage these functions as quickly as one would flick between neck and bridge positions on the 5 way switch, in the middle of a phrase even. Toggle switches are something I prefer to keep tucked away from the main action to be engaged between songs for instance. So I guess the most sensible thing would be to have 2 push push knobs, one for the blender and one for the blower. I reckon I could smack both with one shot with a minimum of practice, but then I lose the speed pot; which I value higher because I can phrase with it, where as the blender and the blower I see as colouring a phrase. Now I think we're coming down to it, and I'm caught on the horns of a dilemma. Remain ignorant and always wonder what might have been, or ask Sumgai what the risks are and potentially struggle to understand his highly knowledgeable and complete answer. Maybe I should just put the blower switch between the 5 way and the volume pot for now, and see if any of the blended/blowered sounds have enough merit to warrant the added level of complexity.
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Post by sumgai on Sept 16, 2017 1:09:51 GMT -5
Couldn't get an image to embed, here's a link. That image looked fine to me, it should do what you want, vis-a-vis the blending operation.
Sorry, but I was referring to the previous bit about two separate controls for two different functions, not about the S-1. As it happens, a new S-1 from Fender will set you back close to a night's worth of beer at your local pub. I see on eBay where they're starting at about 20 bucks USD (that's roughly 140 doggie dollars), depending on what model of guitar the part is destined for. There are different versions for the Strat, Tele and Jazz Bass, and over the years, cosmetics (the knobs) have played a part in which model of S-1 gets installed. so choose wisely. Well, I have no quibble about one's personal ergonomics. I do speak from experience, both personal and that relayed to me via past contact with customers, and of course this very NutzHouse. But in the end, it all really does come down to your wants/needs, not anyone else's.
One more thing to consider - you do realize, don't you, that the Fender S-1 is not built like a standard push-pull. There is an insert, inset within the outer diameter of the main knob, that's what you push to make the switch change. Getting to the point, you won't be "mashing" two closely spaced units at the same time, these require a delicate finger touch. They're plastic, and they can break if abused. (At least that's true for the Strat versions - I can't speak to the jobbies found on the Telecasters or the Jazz basses. They look like they're metal, but these days, you never know....)
This of course will be up to you, but here's one possible solution. Procure a pickguard (used or abused, it doesn't matter) and mount some dummy knobs on it. Hold it in playing position, and test the "feel" of moving your hand to various locations to accomplish some function. Many people love the push-pull, even when they use slick ("speed") knobs, which I can't understand at all. Others like toggles, they can be operated with a light, almost glancing, pressure. "Flick", and it's in the opposite position. Still others like rotary switches, or lever switches, the list goes on. Your call, but I'm trying to get you past the "cost of experimentation" hurdle here. A mock-up is ideal in this scenario.
And lastly, Proboards allows linking to Imgur, but for some reason Imgur doesn't respond to the link. Perhaps they don't want anyone to "deep link" directly to an image, in some mis-guided attempt to force one to receive advertising... I don't know, I'm just speculating here. But for you, the bottom line is "oh crap." Have you tried just attaching the image directly, right from your computer?
HTH
sumgai
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Post by lordquilton on Sept 16, 2017 10:16:17 GMT -5
Folly thy name is Quilton. In the morning I'll type out how it works for my own benefit. EDIT - In the cold light of day, it would seem I'm going back to the drawing board.
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Post by lordquilton on Sept 16, 2017 18:57:08 GMT -5
Back for another attempt. Will this work? The outputs of the pickups arrive at the left hand side of the 5 way switch. The combined signals leave the common lug of the left hand side of the 5 way and proceed to the common lug of the left rail of the push push switch. When the push push switch is down, the signal leaves the lower lug of the left rail, proceeding to the input lug of the volume pot and from there taking the "unblended" signal through the usual circuit terminating at the output jack. When the push push switch is up, the signal jumps from the left side upper lug to the right side upper lug, thence to the output jack, completing the blower function for the "unblended" signal. For the blender function, the right hand side of the 5 way switch is employed. The bridge and neck pickups lugs are jumpered to the right and left rail common lugs of the DPDT mini toggle respectively. With the toggle in the OFF position, the signals from the right side of the 5 way switch terminate here (blender off). With the toggle in the ON position, a circuit is completed between the blender pot and the common lug of the right hand side of the 5 way switch. The blended signal now goes to the common lug of the right hand rail of the push push switch. When the push push switch is down, the "blended" signal (if present) is jumpered to the bottom lug of the left rail where it joins the "unblended" signal and proceeds to the volume pot. When the push push switch is up, the "blended" signal (if present) is joined by the "unblended" signal via a jumper from the upper lug of the left rail. The combined signals proceed to the output jack to complete the blower function. Attachments:
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Post by sumgai on Sept 16, 2017 19:38:57 GMT -5
lord,
Look again at your diagram, specifically the output jack. See those two wires coming off the 'hot' terminal? One of them is going to the 'blower' switch, true enough, but trace out the other wire, the one going to the pot.... see anything undesirable yet?
That wire is always hooked up to the pot, thus the pot will always work to reduce the volume level - it can't help it, it's permanently in the circuit.
The only way to entirely remove the control pots from the circuit is to also switch the line coming into the jack 'hot' terminal. One of the two poles of a DPDT switch will essentially be wired such that the output of the pup selector is directed either to the jack, or to the controls. The remaining pole will be used to select which signal gets to enter the output jack - from the selector switch, or from the controls.
Fortunately, you have the correct switch already in place, it's simply wired incorrectly. I'll leave it to you to divine where each wire needs to go in order to accomplish the above scenario.
As to the blender circuitry, I'd like to see a Truth Table, please. That makes it ever so much easier to figure out if the switch is wired up properly, when reviewing the circuit.
HTH
sumgai
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Post by lordquilton on Sept 17, 2017 2:43:14 GMT -5
I love it when they call me lord Thank you. Hmm, cryptic. Something to do with what's actually being input, maybe?
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Post by lordquilton on Sept 17, 2017 6:58:46 GMT -5
Alright so I think we have arrived at what you were alluding to in your first post sumgai. A blender in and out on the mini toggle, blower switch on the push push. Assuming it all works of course(?), is there anything useful that can be done with the unused pole of that mini toggle?
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Post by sumgai on Sept 17, 2017 12:17:50 GMT -5
Quilty,
Your blower switch is wired correctly - congratulations!
Your blender switch is also correct, but... tell me again, what's the pot supposed to do? I see no wiring that hooks the control to any pickups....
A "Truth Table" is a table showing the results of each whatever that is connected to somewhere else, for each switch position under examination. As an example, I've lifted the drawing from reTrEaD's "Zero Bux Series Addition" thread:
That table across the top of the drawing is included right in the drawing, but the same thing could be a separate bit of text. The advantage in the first case is that the table is always there, should someone decided to "borrow" the drawing, as I just did. The advantage in the second case is that if the image hosting service should decided to go gunnysack, the text describing the desired results is still with us. And from that, an astute circuit designer can come up with a suitable diagram, should the need ever arise.
HTH
sumgai
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Post by lordquilton on Sept 19, 2017 7:01:17 GMT -5
I'm working under the assumption that the lugs on one side of the 5 way share their signal with their sister lugs on the other side of the 5 way. I think I may have confounded that idea for the reality - moving the switch through it's positions activates partnered lugs on both sides, but signals aren't shared between the sides unless they are jumpered somehow. Yes? If that's the case-
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Post by sumgai on Sept 19, 2017 11:47:03 GMT -5
I'm working under the assumption that the lugs on one side of the 5 way share their signal with their sister lugs on the other side of the 5 way. I think I may have confounded that idea for the reality - moving the switch through it's positions activates partnered lugs on both sides, but signals aren't shared between the sides unless they are jumpered somehow. Yes? You're correct, the two sets of terminals are mechanically connected, but electrically isolated. If signal is desired between terminals of each pole (they need not be in the same position), then a short jumper will need to be installed. Or in your case, the second pole is not required at all - your revised circuit will do the job, blending Neck to Bridge, or Bridge to Neck. The added avantage is that you get all seven possible (parallel) combinations, and at your desire, some of them are available in more than one switch position. Nifty trick, that.
Hook it all up, and post some sound samples!
sumgai
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Post by lordquilton on Oct 15, 2017 19:55:55 GMT -5
Just a note to say I found push push pots on ebay from a large supplier in Singapore. The company seems to have several names including Swinger Electronics, but the ebay store I bought from is called swivelelectronics. They have both A and B taper in 250k and 500k push push pots.
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