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Post by newey on Feb 16, 2018 8:51:25 GMT -5
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Post by blademaster2 on Feb 16, 2018 9:44:41 GMT -5
That would be sad. I know they have been less than perfect in their business decisions, and probably hate having to compete with their own products that they sold decades ago, but what would music history have been had their not been the Les Paul guitar and a host of other icons coming from them?
Having said that, just last year I looked at some new Gibson electric guitars in a store (Flying V, Explorer, Les Paul) and saw that the workmanship on all of them especially in the finish was noticeably poor (not buffed flat in some areas, having that "orange peel" appearance, oddly placed masking that looked like they simply did not take the time or care about it). These were not cheap. By comparison, their lower brand Epiphone guitars on the same wall were far better in their finish and workmanship details overall. Had I been planning on buying anything that day it certainly could not have been one of the Gibson high-end instruments.
I do hope that interest in guitar music will rebound, perhaps as people become a little bored with the studio music offerings and "millennial yelps" and tired rapping I hear in new music these days, and I hope that Gibson remains part of the scene - and cleans up their act.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2018 10:42:50 GMT -5
Gibson guitars used to be everywhere during the last years, judging by the ads in thomann.de and other sites.
The problem is that young generation does not like rock'n'roll . Out of my daughter's friends , schoolmates, etc, I mean out of total 20 kids in their 15th year, I can barely count 2 who listen to rock/guitar music.
In my generation, kids were divided in lets say 40% Rock, 40% disco and 20% local folk Greek music.
Today, around 50% listen to (crappy) greek music and the rest listen to hiphop/mainstream or "Trap" (also ultra crappy) if you know this new genre (smth weird like rap / hiphop but with strange rhythm ).
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Post by sumgai on Feb 16, 2018 12:07:00 GMT -5
My cat is going bankrupt?  I didn't even know the little bugger had a bank account to rupture in the first place. How'd he sneak that by me? Then again, perhaps that explains his grumpy expression. Hmmmm..... |
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Post by reTrEaD on Apr 20, 2018 8:53:19 GMT -5
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Post by sydsbluesky1 on Apr 21, 2018 0:10:37 GMT -5
My angle is that of a homebrewer and luthier. Here, I will first go for beer.
Sales of the Big Boys have decreased... generally, across the two disciplines (I read articles about beer being dead ten years ago...Hm). But ten years ago I couldn't go to a town without a post office and get a beer of which my father had never heard. Today? I can! The decline of the big boys means room for the little boys to blossom. This is my thinking.
I know I haven't been around much! And for this I apologize sincerely. My current status is that I am in the middleish part of a Master Course (6 month... I 've been gone like ten times that, I know!) stay at Galloup School of Guitars Etc. Toss the degrees! This is what I'm going to do, and this is what my teachers do.
Guess what?
They all herald the end of Gibson as not harbinger of sorrow, but of sunshine. The end (purchase) of Heritage, too. Don't get me started on what they say about Heritage.......... One word. Fire? That'll do... Times four.
But I'm not here for the hearsay; I agree with them. Gibson has made a crap product for more years than should've been sustainable. I have a 2004 Les Paul Deluxe, and the thing can't hold up to my knock off cheap arse H-H ESP guitar of the same year(vintage!).
All bluster. No Mojo.
The sooner Gibson is gone, the sooner A.) that piece of crap guitar I have is worth half as much as I paid for it. B.) the sooner the smaller players in the market can scramble to contest for the vacuum Gibson leaves behind.
This is the best news any luthier has gotten since July 1st 1975. Yes, that is sincere.
Jesse
Hi, guys!
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Post by sydsbluesky1 on Apr 21, 2018 0:24:06 GMT -5
Oh... also... I'm supposed to go fishing this weekend with Dan Erlewine (I'm so nervous. I've fished 1292472394 times in my life, and I still Youtube'd how to tie the knots I already knew). He came to the school to talk about a black walnut flying V he made for a guy you prolly all know... and he asked for questions. I asked him about fishing instead of guitars. One thing leads to another! Anyway, I'll ask him what he thinks about the entire Gibson affair. And hopefully post pictures? Going for Walleye I think?. They will be on Facebook (I'll add it to my profile stuff) if I can't figure out the cell phone proboards thing. With a few good Dan Erlewine stories.  |
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Post by newey on Apr 21, 2018 6:12:57 GMT -5
Hey, Syd, welcome back! |
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Post by sumgai on Apr 21, 2018 10:50:33 GMT -5
This is what happens when you can't dominate the market like an 800# gorilla, but you've deluded yourself into thinking that you do indeed weigh 800lbs - you trade on your reputation*, and that won't work in today's world economy. There are more guitars made in, and sold into, the Asian market per year than all of Gibson's output for the last 20 years. At which point, we don't need too many calculators to add up the difference both in pricing and marketing. When you have that many "beginners" coming into play, the market for so-called professional instruments is not a large enough percentage of the total to justify high prices for all of a company's output. In short, Gibson failed to read, and react to, the market properly. Fender, bless them, did - the resurgence of "student" models from yestercentury, plus the Squire and Affinity series', all of this has made sure that FMC extracts some amount of money from the entire hierarchy of potential buyers.
I do dislike Gibson solid-body guitars in general, and the company in particular. Since 1951, they've been trading on the reputation of Les Paul. He deserved his rep, Gibson didn't deserve to trade on it. Yes, at one time, in the first half of the 20th century, they were conscientous players in the market, but after Lester Polsfuss's name was attached to the headstock, it was all over but the shouting. Nothing new for the next 65 years, and I'm including all the riff-raff like the Robo-Guitar (auto-tuning), the fake Line 6 copycat, all of them. And to boot, nothing Gibson did was sexy - they simply had no pizzazz. Small wonder that almost any teenager that walked into a music store in 1965 looked at the wall, and chose a Fender nearly every time. Or possibly a Gretsch, if they were thinking of Geo. Harrison.
OK, OK, if Leo had not survived his Army experience, I suppose an ES-330 or ES-335 would be a viable purchase, particularly for the Blues. But I'd still have to take it to a luthier and the neck reshaped to be usable. For me, it really does boil down to one question - why in Gawd's name does Gibson think that guitarists like to play with baseball bats? And I have fairly large hands. One minute of handling a Fender neck, any Fender neck, and there's no going back. My feeling is, I should've become a psychiatrist, I could've made a large fortune off of analyzing handswursts who had the crazy notion that suffering excrutiating pain in one's left hand somehow led to fame and fortune.
And don't get me started on how my cat came to be named Gibson! 
sumgai
* Ironically, Jesse's screen name is sydsBlueSky, blue sky being another name for reputation. Of course, the fact that a budding luthier is speaking out about a former star on the playing field is only so much more irony. I admit, I love it. 
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Post by reTrEaD on Apr 21, 2018 11:19:19 GMT -5
The sooner Gibson is gone, the sooner A.) that piece of crap guitar I have is worth half as much as I paid for it. B.) the sooner the smaller players in the market can scramble to contest for the vacuum Gibson leaves behind. This is the best news any luthier has gotten since July 1st 1975. Yes, that is sincere. I'm not so sure the value of your guitar will drop if Gibson goes belly-up. It might do so in the short-term but in the longer term someone focused on name-value might be willing to pay more if they can't buy a new one. Hard to say, really. I've been a fan of Gibson long before I started to appreciate Fender. For the amps, of course, Fender has always been my preference. But for the guitars, I've always liked the look and feel of a Gibson, especially the student models like the LP JR, LP Special, and Melody Maker. As a company, I'm not impressed by their moves in the last half-century. But I do like some of their guitars. For me, it really does boil down to one question - why in Gawd's name does Gibson think that guitarists like to play with baseball bats? If I recall correctly, ChrisK was a big fan of fat 'baseball bat' necks. |
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Post by sumgai on Apr 21, 2018 22:26:52 GMT -5
For me, it really does boil down to one question - why in Gawd's name does Gibson think that guitarists like to play with baseball bats? If I recall correctly, ChrisK was a big fan of fat 'baseball bat' necks.
Awww, geeeez, you hadda go and play the ChrisK card, dinn't ya.... OK, you win, I'm not even gonna try. 
Reverence is. |
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Post by sydsbluesky1 on Apr 22, 2018 1:24:20 GMT -5
I was stuck finish sanding an ebony bridge today, so I had to give Dan a rain check. Imagine that... me... telling Dan Erlewine No!... to a day of him showing me his favorite fishing spots. I died a little inside, but I knew he would respect me more for doing the sanding right. Got to play a 1931 Martin... that was nice! Exploded with sound. You could feel the back screaming against your abdomen with energy. Punchy, loud, and no frequency was underrepresented. I don't like "vintage" (unless it's MIJ 60s!) but I was impressed. Water is high anyway. Only scouting this trip. I'm going to call him tomorrow around noon and see what happens... I promise stories and pictures! I asked him what he thought about the Gibson deal. His immediate reply was that it was bad for the culture of guitar and music as a whole, but that it was fantastic for budding luthiers such as myself. I made the argument of craft beer to him, as I presented it here. He agreed with me, and replied that it might not be that bad after all. I offered that someone like Cort might buy the brand, and he said it was possible to likely. I finished sanded with twice the commitment after this. His presence inspired me. Me personal guess is that no matter what happens, the brand will continue on in some manner. The highly flammable Heritage shop comes to mind. The tradition of the Gibson brand will never die; it is already long immortalized. We already have the Gibson ripoffs... maybe whoever takes charge of the Church of Gibson after this actually decides to build with some hint of quality and gives people a high quality counterpoint to the omnipresent junk! That would be nice. I'm not so sure the value of your guitar will drop if Gibson goes belly-up. It might do so in the short-term but in the longer term someone focused on name-value might be willing to pay more if they can't buy a new one. Hard to say, really. Half is an increase not a decrease... Mine is in a fair bit less than "Good" condition due to wear and tear! ...And ideas I got here. Nice to be back, guys. Didn't we have an acoustic area once upon a time? Something about beer can holders. I'm more useful to the forum if we have an acoustic area. I have added my facebook to my sig, but most of the old stuff is from when I was 16. Ignore that if it bothers you to look at bird nests that only use red wire. |
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Post by sydsbluesky1 on Apr 22, 2018 1:32:46 GMT -5
And don't get me started on how my cat came to be named Gibson!
I'm super ready for this story. |
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Post by newey on Apr 22, 2018 8:26:11 GMT -5
Fender Vs. Gibson, it's almost like a yin-and-yang thing.
I've disliked LPs since the first time I slung one over my shoulder- way too heavy, and I've never been a fan of the PAF sound. But I'm with RT on the LPJs and Melody Makers, and an SG with P90s has long been on my radar screen.
I have an Epiphone LP Jr. that I have detailed elsewhere on these pages. It cost me $90 used at a time when Epiphone was selling new ones for about a buck twenty-five. Even though used, it was in flawless condition. I swapped out the HB for a GFS Filtertron clone, replace the machine heads with better ones, replaced the bridge with an adjustable one, and wired in a P/P pot for series/parallel on the single pickup. I then dropped it into the hands of my (now departed) set-up guy, who did a bit of fret work, not much, and set the intonation with the adjustable bridge. I play this one quite a bit. And I will put it up against any actual Gibson LP Jr. in terms of playability and sound.
Of course, I like strings that are a bit beefier (.10s or .11s, mostly, I think the LPJ has .11s on it at present), and I have my action a bit higher than the shredders would like. I don't know if perhaps my Epi would need more work, or be unsuited for, extra light gauge strings and super low action, since I've never tried that type of set-up on this guitar. But overall, I don't see the extra $$ an actual Gibson would have cost me as being at all worth it.
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Post by reTrEaD on Apr 22, 2018 10:16:07 GMT -5
If I recall correctly, ChrisK was a big fan of fat 'baseball bat' necks.
Awww, geeeez, you hadda go and play the ChrisK card, dinn't ya.... OK, you win, I'm not even gonna try.
Reverence is. lol that's kinda funny. It's one of the few areas where my opinion ran in the polar opposite direction to Chris. I've always been a fan of thin, narrow necks. I only mentioned his preference because apparently there are some folks who are into heftier handles. |
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Post by reTrEaD on Apr 22, 2018 10:16:33 GMT -5
Nice to be back, guys. Didn't we have an acoustic area once upon a time? Something about beer can holders. I'm more useful to the forum if we have an acoustic area. The main page had become cluttered with too many boards and some of them didn't fit neatly into categories. "Beer Can Holders" was one that really wasn't necessary, so I convinced the powers that be to make some changes and we moved the threads from BCH into appropriate boards and did away with it. The other option would have been to divide the threads from BCH into three groups and add two new boards. But that seemed the wrong direction for a board that already had light activity. Any thread you might like to start should be in The Lutherie if it pertains to repairs, modifications, or building techniques. The Gallery would be a good place for a project heavy with pics. Guitars if it's a review of a stock model. If it's about addition of a piezo or magnetic pickup and the content is more about the wiring/preamp rather than the physical mounting, it could go in Guitar Wiring. I have added my facebook to my sig, but most of the old stuff is from when I was 16. Ignore that if it bothers you to look at bird nests that only use red wire. Cool. Feel free to link any work you do here or anything else on GN2 that you find interesting to your FB postings if you're still active there. At some point we might discuss the possibility of making an official GuitarNutz page on FB. idk |
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Post by sumgai on Apr 22, 2018 16:05:47 GMT -5
Awww, geeeez, you hadda go and play the ChrisK card, dinn't ya.... OK, you win, I'm not even gonna try.
Reverence is. lol that's kinda funny. It's one of the few areas where my opinion ran in the polar opposite direction to Chris. I've always been a fan of thin, narrow necks. I only mentioned his preference because apparently there are some folks who are into heftier handles.
What's even funnier is your recent post about Tom Scholz. He has two Les Pauls with arguably the fattest necks ever made by Gibson. Guitar Player magazine had an article on his axes a few decades ago, and the powers-that-be of that day-and-age recognized the necks as being the thickest they'd ever seen or heard of. But then again, TS stands 6'5", so he's probably got hands to match, and there's no doubt that he makes good use of those particular examples of mahogany!
Still and all, I think Gibson just got tired of wasting time cutting necks down to the size they should be, and simply forced players to deal with the resultant baseball bats. Economics over ergonomics, that was their motto.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2018 13:59:15 GMT -5
I heard some ppl tend to make big necks for teles as well, they think light body and meaty necks is a recipe for good tone.
But, as ppl age older, the most important thing is ergonomics. I got a LP shaped Ibanez and the Aria copy with the new neck. The new think neck of the Aria is much better than the LP. It is important to play for hours without issues. I got some problems with the 7-string as well but this is expected.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2018 14:02:49 GMT -5
Now about fender - gibson , IMHO those things are happening :
a) players become better and better and more demanding for gear
b) players actually get fewer and fewer as new generations dont actually listen to rock
c) small luthiers "boutique"-type become more and more
So the buyers get fewer, more picky, need newer designs, the overall supply increases and the overall demand decreases .... = formula for problems for the big names.
Today, IMHO even Ibanez is outdated ... People like Carvin (Kiesel) and Standberg designs, this is the future (if any).
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Post by blademaster2 on Apr 25, 2018 15:37:55 GMT -5
What I have seen is more publicizing of different boutique guitars, plus the vintage market (which really took off in the past 20 years). Combining that with declining quality of Gibsons of late (which, sadly, I saw for myself in a music store) and you have at least part of a perfect storm. It must be frustrating to see your own products become your primary competitor.
If there truly is also a long-term trend for guitars to be less desirable then that also adds to it, although I saw that happen before during the 'electro-pop' years of the early 1980's, and I suspect that these things cycle in pop culture like wide ties and lapels. As a very expressive and (fairly) democratic instrument, I am confident that people will look to guitars again once they get a little bored of the more-than-a-decade love affair with Hip Hop and Rap.
Whether Gibson has the stored fat to survive until another cyclic resurgence makes guitar music fashionable again is another question. Although I have no Gibsons myself, I would be sad to see them disappear. The Fender/Gibson rivalry, like the cola wars, is part of our DNA. I would like to see them return to instruments of more substance and quality, too.
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Post by reTrEaD on Apr 27, 2018 9:33:11 GMT -5
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Post by blademaster2 on Apr 27, 2018 15:52:24 GMT -5
.... and the founder of Tronical actually said in the press release that most beginner guitarists give up because they cannot tune their instrument.
Not at all true in my experience with teaching and observing. With their timing in this lawsuit they seem more like vultures now than any boon to guitarists.
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Post by newey on Apr 27, 2018 18:03:55 GMT -5
If a Gibson bankruptcy is likely upcoming, there were probably strategic reasons to file the suit now. But if Gibson actually goes bankrupt, the likelihood is they get nada in any liquidation of the company, as secured and/or prior creditors stand ahead of them in the payment line.
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Post by sumgai on Apr 27, 2018 19:44:46 GMT -5
Tronical is probably doing this because Henry J. told them to go fly a kite. (More likely, the phrase was "lextamarsh", very loose translation indeed. )
Reading through one of reTrEaD's links, I learned that Gibson did not attend the NAMM this year. That right there says to me that they're in more trouble than we can imagine - you simply do not skip out on the biggest audience to whom you can announce your latest wares, period. That wasn't a tactic, as in "we've got better places to display our stuff", that was both a tactical and a strategic error of highest order.
While I dislike any company selling their stuff for stupidly (and unsupportably) high prices, Gibson in particular has doggedly refused to admit that they don't dominate the market, let alone control it in any fashion, and have exhibited what we call a textbook example of how to ruin one's reputation as well as drag a solid business down into total extinction. I predict that this whole fiasco will become a case study in Harvard Business School, about how to not run a business. Probably before the decade is out.
sumgai
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Post by sumgai on May 1, 2018 13:26:34 GMT -5
And..... it's happened.
This morning, May 1st of 2018, Gibson Brands filed for Chapter 11. For our non-USA friends, that means that they are asking a Federal court for protection from their creditors while they attempt to restructure their debts. In effect, the court will tell creditors to stop attempting to collect money from Gibson until the court has looked at everything and made a judgment. What this really means is that creditors cannot sue Gibson for the money owed until a final judgement has been rendered. Sometimes a court will order the sale of assets in order to satisfy debts, but not always.
Usually this works out somewhat nicely for the bankrupt company, and secured creditors get something as well (though not as much as they wanted). Unsecured creditors generally take it in the shorts, sorry to say.
Perhaps Gibson will be able to continue, but it won't be unscathed - they'll be a long time recovering to even a modest level of production. Competition in the marketplace is mandatory, but Gibson won't be a contender to the likes of Fender et al for some time to come.... if at all.
sumgai
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Post by newey on May 1, 2018 21:17:18 GMT -5
What should also be pointed out is that Gibson will remain what is called a "debtor in possession" of its assets while the reorganization in bankruptcy proceeds. So, just like all those bankrupt airlines that keep flying through the bankruptcy process, Gibson will, no doubt, continue to make and sell their products.
In the short run, there may be an uptick in values of older Gibsons because some in the market will assume bankruptcy means the production stops.
Often, the restructuring plan will involve a refocus on the core business, while selling off other assets to pay something to the creditors. So it wouldn't surprise me that Epiphone and other parts get sold off, and Gibson continues as a low-volume upmarket producer selling a streamlined product line.
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Post by sumgai on May 1, 2018 23:27:47 GMT -5
I don't just color outside of the lines, I make up new lines, and then overstep those bounds too.... in spades! I tend to think in a contrary manner, always looking for "the other side of the story". That's a prelude to this little bon mot:
Tronical is suing Gibson for 50Megabux, claiming unpaid licensing fees, etc. Now lets say that Gibson plays by the book, and lists this unpaid debt on the "claim for relief" form in the bankruptcy proceedings. Being unsecured, Tronical will likely end up with a fat bunch of nothing. And to pour salt into the wound, Tronical won't be able to sue Gibson later - the debt has been settled by the grace of the Bankruptcy court.
But if Gibson were to claim that Tronical's claims are null and void, meaning that they are willing to spend money on defending against Tronical in another court (not Bankruptcy) and tells the Bankruptcy court Tronical's claims should not be considered in the filing, then in theory, Tronical can prosecute the suit in (that other) court - Gibson as not asked for protection from them. Here, Gibson is in a bit of a bind - either they are asking for relief, thus admitting that they screwed Tronical, or they are denying any wrong-doing, and taking a large chance that this other court (judge or jury) will find them guilty anyway, for some additional amount of money. Importantly, if there is an award of money for damages, then Gibson will not be allowed to go back to the Bankrupcy court and ask for additional protection. They had their chance during the initial filing, and they made their choice. Under bankruptcy laws, the old saying is: Once done, that's all she wrote, folks.
I wonder how many other vendors will come out of the woodwork with similar claims of unpaid bills, or somehow they've been screwed? Possibly with threats of lawsuits.....
Either way, until the dust settles, Gibson can continue to operate, that's true. But you can bet your heiny that they will be conducting all their purchses with cash only - not very many suppliers are willing to bet on a losing horse, no matter what the racing form says.
sumgai
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Post by wolf on May 2, 2018 1:06:54 GMT -5
Well it seems I should make a posting on this subject.
And without sounding too much like a grumpy old man ....
In my day when I first started playing guitar (1966), Gibson was considered THE guitar to own. It took me a long time to buy one (1980 Gibson SG Standard), but it had everything I expected:
1) Fantastic appearance, well-polished, etc.
2) Unbelievably low action (you can think the strings down).
3) Very well-made. (no sharp fret ends, no buzzing frets, etc.) So, well-made that I think it could survive an atomic blast!!
The only problem I had was with their "Super-Deluxe-Extra-Special Sealed-In-Epoxy-For-Eternity Humbuckers". I'm sure we've all heard that about Gibson guitars sounding a little too thick and so I had to know how to cure this problem. I was told that a coil-cut switch would solve the problem. (THE very beginning of my becoming a Guitar-Nut™) Yes, it did involve opening the pickup and adding some wires and switching but I was willing to do the work. But then I found out, that around 1980, Gibson was making their humbuckers completely sealed in epoxy and it was impossible to get at the wiring!!! ARRGGGHHHH!!!!! So, I realized I'd have to buy 2 new pickups and then rewire those!!! (Maybe this was the beginning of Gibson making stupid decisions.) Other than that, I've been quite happy about my 38 year old Gibson.
It would seem that Gibson should have made a decision a LONG time ago (maybe like 1956?), to equip their guitars with coil cut / series parallel switches. Instead they did nothing for decades except develop a "revolutionary" self-tuning guitar. A few extra switches would have cost very little and would have created a huge amount of versatility for their guitars. (But we can all rest assured that they will stay in tune.  )
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Post by reTrEaD on May 2, 2018 2:44:01 GMT -5
Hi Wolf. I was hoping to see you post in the Anniversary thread but I'm glad to see you here. And without sounding too much like a grumpy old man .... What do you have against fitting in with the rest of us grumpy old men? lol The only problem I had was with their "Super-Deluxe-Extra-Special Sealed-In-Epoxy-For-Eternity Humbuckers". I recall that being something which annoyed you mightily, way back when. This might be the first time when Super-Deluxe-Extra-Special was part of the description, though. I seem to remember something more like: tight as a drum, chrome covered, epoxy-filled, sealed-for-eternity ^&%$!( (*@#)$ *&%!&^(_) &^%&$# BRICKS !!!You've mellowed with age. Do you reckon Gibson might scale back and stop trying to touch all the bases and return just to high-end guitars? Scale back the number of choices and focus on quality of finish and construction, etc? |
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2018 2:44:22 GMT -5
Pppl in their 50s are the ex-thrashers. Ppl in their 60s are the ex-metalheads. Ppl in their 70s are the ex-rockers. Ppl in their 80s are the ex-hippies.
So ppl in their 40s and younger are people who grew listening to Korn and nu-metal and 7-8 String guitars, long scale, and now need new designs, fanned frets, headless instruments.
And Gibson/Fender are NOWHERE near at filling this gap.
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I didn't even know the little bugger had a bank account to rupture in the first place. How'd he sneak that by me?
)