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Post by reTrEaD on May 2, 2018 3:34:25 GMT -5
Fender continues to produce the guitars of choice for the Country market, which is significant. Gibson has its own appeal.
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Post by gitpiddler on May 2, 2018 20:17:44 GMT -5
HA! Ex-? I'm all five.
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Post by reTrEaD on May 3, 2018 16:32:29 GMT -5
Would it be fair to describe you as being Ex-ceptional?
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Post by sumgai on May 9, 2018 22:54:15 GMT -5
I'm vindicated. This piece comes from my second favorite site on the Web, it quotes and analyzes some statements from another article, which is the second link: EDIT: fixed the following link: It Ain't Innovation if No One Wants To Buy What You're SellingA cautionaray Tale About InnovationBe sure to read the comments in both articles, and perhaps follow the links as well. The takeaway of course is as my first line indicated: Gibson blew it, and Fender didn't have to do a thing to make it happen. I think I also said that this will possibly become a case study used in Harvard Business School, for all the obvious reasons. The linked articles don't go that far, but you can read between the lines well enough. sumgai
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2018 2:19:42 GMT -5
SG the 1st one points to this very page.
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Post by gumbo on May 10, 2018 4:10:21 GMT -5
SG the 1st one points to this very page. ...cut him some slack, gd...after all, he IS getting old...
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Post by reTrEaD on May 10, 2018 4:45:59 GMT -5
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Post by newey on May 10, 2018 6:00:43 GMT -5
. . .and clicking on it opened a "pop-under" ad for a gaming website on my machine.
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Post by sumgai on May 10, 2018 11:23:17 GMT -5
SG the 1st one points to this very page. That's what I get for not double-checking my own work. Fixed. And thanks for spotting that, gd.
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Post by sumgai on May 10, 2018 11:24:13 GMT -5
Well, that figures. After all, gumbo is entering yet another ice age, down below.
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Post by sumgai on May 10, 2018 11:27:54 GMT -5
. . .and clicking on it opened a "pop-under" ad for a gaming website on my machine. The actual link itself was a pair of empty quotemarks - no wonder it just came back here to The NutzHouse. If you got "whammied", then that's on you, not ProBoards. You kids these days. How many times do I gotta tell ya... all together now: Practice Safe Hex! And while I'm at it... get off my lawn!
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2018 11:46:02 GMT -5
Innovation might mean a lot of things and might imply many completely differenr paths. For instance, robo tuners and ethernet enabled guitars are OK for the mid-aged ex-hippie manager who can afford buying it. *BUT* the new average modern guitar dude wants fanned frets, long scale, 7 or 8-string guitars, headless designs, fancy colors and possibly other evolutionary things. Gibson focused on this hi-tech ex-hippie manager as a target group. Fender did the same but kept it more vintage-correct IMHO. But I am afraid Fender's fate will be similar.
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Post by newey on May 10, 2018 13:09:31 GMT -5
The quotes from Fender's CEO in the article sg linked would indicate the opposite- he noted that 40% of their market was first-time players who give up within a few months. I don't know any beginning guitarists who are lining up for a fanned-fret 8-string as their first axe. They might aspire to it someday, but they'll buy a "starter guitar" just like we all did when we started. You, yourself, GD- how long had you been playing before you bought your first 7-string? (I remember when you got it, BTW- not so long ago!) If there was a big market for those things, Fender would be selling them. You talkin' to me? I am probably past "mid-age", and I'm not an "ex-hippie". There are no "ex-hippies", we just got old and were forced by circumstances of employment to cut our hair. And I was a manager at various times. But that "inner hippie" fire still burns . . . And, as I said earlier, if it was people like me Gibson was trying to sell to, they missed their mark, as I've never really been a fan. I did once own a 1962 ES-125, and I wish I still had it for the vintage value, but I rarely played it- not my cup 'o tea, so to speak.
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Post by thetragichero on May 10, 2018 13:12:19 GMT -5
I am afraid Fender's fate will be similar. i wholeheartedly disagree 1. do you know how many squier strats i see in craigslist? why that is important is because people are getting the budget starter models and then moving on. these cost probably less than it takes for me fill 1/4 of my gas tank so even at $99 or $199 with a cheap combo amp they're making a decent profit and what are a lot of these kids moving up to... 2. fender owns jackson, charvel, and evh (and gretsch but that doesn't support my point) so the big boy models of strat/tele guitars spanning from the classics (branded fender) to the modern/metal stuff (jackson, charvel, evh) all under one roof 3. fender makes amps. good ones too if that is the sound you're going for 4. fender makes basses whenever i see live music they're either playing a P or a J, a music man, or an ibanez bass. i never see a gibson-made bass (although those firebirds look pretty sweet) diversification is a good thing that fender is doing. trying new stuff that may sometimes be fugly and sometimes be killer (pawn shop type stuff can fit into either category) is a whole lot better than another sg or paul having products that run the gamut of $99 cheapo squier strat to several thousand dollar custom shop dealies means there's a product for every price point i also happen to be heavily biased against gibson, so take me with a couple grains of coarse kosher salt
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Post by reTrEaD on May 10, 2018 13:22:11 GMT -5
*BUT* the new average modern guitar dude wants fanned frets, long scale, 7 or 8-string guitars, headless designs, fancy colors and possibly other evolutionary things. This is the kind of statement which occurs when we make the mistake of thinking the rest of the world (or in this case the rest of the age demographic) shares our wants and desires.
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Post by thetragichero on May 10, 2018 13:50:08 GMT -5
the more i play with other dudes, the more i realize that most frankly don't give a damn about series/parallel or out of phase wiring, POOP SHOOP SOOP, pot tapers, swapping tone caps, etc; nor do they have the faintest idea how the hell one would do it (both the worship leader at church and my partner think i'm some like steve jobs electronics genius because i can paint-by-numbers solder a few wires together) and that's okay!
i got a reputation as a four year old because i would "break" toys taking them apart wanting to know how they worked i've ruined my fair share of guitars, amps, and effects doing the same thing as a teenager/adult-looking person i like to tinker! some guys just like to shut up and play, and don't care that they're plugged into the wrong impedance output for their speaker cabinet, etc
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2018 15:06:49 GMT -5
So 40% of fender's market is a target group EASILY dominated by some Asian makers making beginners "one-use" guitars? Then things are worse than I thought! And Newey, about mid-age hippies, I actually mean ... me reTrEaD I happen to know young guitarists, and also I hang out in YT a lot. You won't find many new virtuosos still playing strats or LPs. The best of the best play with Stanberg, the rest Ibanez, Schecter even Agile, etc. Look at the latest designs of those companies. Lets face it. Electric guitars is 1920 technology. There *HAS* to be some kind of evolution that won't go against the very nature of what a guitar should do or what it is supposed to be. Apparently the Gibson strategy didnt' work, and the Fender one (which translates to "lets keep it all 1950-correct") isn't very likely to work either. Anyway, we'll be here to see what happens I guess.
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Post by reTrEaD on May 10, 2018 15:48:57 GMT -5
Moving goalposts. *BUT* the new average modern guitar dude wants fanned frets, long scale, 7 or 8-string guitars, headless designs, fancy colors and possibly other evolutionary things. reTrEaD I happen to know young guitarists, and also I hang out in YT a lot. You won't find many new virtuosos still playing strats or LPs. The best of the best play with Stanberg, the rest Ibanez, Schecter even Agile, etc. Look at the latest designs of those companies. ... Virtuosos and "the best of the best" don't represent the "average" guitarist's choices any more than Lewis Hamilton and Sebastian Vettel do for the "average motorist".
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Post by newey on May 10, 2018 22:10:46 GMT -5
Tragic's point about amps and basses is a valid one. Gibson got out of the amp business early on, as their offerings never really went anywhere in the market. The more products in different categories, the easier to weather the storm, so to speak.
We should also mention acoustics. I've never looked at sales figures, but Gibson used to be a big player in acoustics, and that seems to have dwindled over the last several decades- Taylor, Godin and Martin have, I suspect, been cleaning their clocks in the soundhole* biz. And the market for acoustics is 3.5 times that for electrics, keep in mind.
And GD-
.
While their latest designs may be great, what keeps a company afloat is sales (at a profit). Sales figures for guitar manufacturers are hard to come by- unless you want to pay, because the firms that compile those numbers know that they can charge for the data.
But I will guarantee you that you could add up the global sales of Ibanez, Schecter, Agile, Stanberg, and probably several other brands, and their total wouldn't come close to matching Fender (and Fender-owned brands).
RT's point above about Fender's popularity in Country music is well taken also. GD, guys in Europe don't see this (and probably wouldn't get it- I sure don't!), but here in the U.S., there are probably 10 Country records issued/sold for every Rock record. Bars that have live Rock "Bar bands" are few and far between, but I can go any number of places to hear live C&W. And all those guys are playing Fenders, mostly, and there are a whole lot more of them than Rock guitarists these days. Of course, there are not two distinct groups of players here, as a good number of C&W pickers are rock 'n roll refugees.
*aka "beer can holders" Where's D2o when we need him?
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Post by sumgai on May 10, 2018 23:38:07 GMT -5
So 40% of fender's market is a target group EASILY dominated by some Asian makers making beginners "one-use" guitars? Then things are worse than I thought!
While the article quotes the CEO of Fender (and he said 45%, not just 40%), in actuality that figure is pretty good for all guitar makers that are selling low- to mid-range guitars. Tellingly, acoustics are outselling electrics in this arena, which explains Fender's offerings.
In point of fact, Fender is a major importer of Asian-made guitars, both with their brand name on the headstock, and under other names. I can't say for certain that they're the biggest player in the field, but they certainly aren't bush league either.
The point of this lesson is, Fender is willing to go to the mat with any other guitar maker, no questions asked, no quarter given. Gibson, bless their historical soul, tried a different business model, and was soundly ejected from the marketplace for their efforts.
sumai
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Post by reTrEaD on May 10, 2018 23:57:16 GMT -5
In point of fact, Fender is a major importer of Asian-made guitars, both with their brand name on the headstock, and under other names. Samick (whose name hasn't been mentioned yet) is a South Korean manufacturer which supplies quite a few 'American' manufacturers with mid to low cost offerings. They also sell guitars with the Samick name on the headstock. They have the capacity to make a large number of guitars at a very reasonable cost. I think they'd actually be a major player in their own right but they haven't focused on creating a brand identity for themselves. It's almost as if they make the Samick headstocks and other details intentionally ugly.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2018 1:11:30 GMT -5
Moving goalposts. *BUT* the new average modern guitar dude wants fanned frets, long scale, 7 or 8-string guitars, headless designs, fancy colors and possibly other evolutionary things. reTrEaD I happen to know young guitarists, and also I hang out in YT a lot. You won't find many new virtuosos still playing strats or LPs. The best of the best play with Stanberg, the rest Ibanez, Schecter even Agile, etc. Look at the latest designs of those companies. ... Virtuosos and "the best of the best" don't represent the "average" guitarist's choices any more than Lewis Hamilton and Sebastian Vettel do for the "average motorist". It's boring writing trivial facts : a) THE BEST GUITARISTS ARE THE ONES WHO DRIVE THE MARKET b) the average MODERN (not beginner, did i ever say beginner ?) guitarist of today is a VIRTUOSO (ESPECIALLY compared to the "guitar legend" of the 60s) It's very simple actually. I am sure you'll go around in circles again, as always to disprove my point, but I don't think i'll bother answering. And if you really wanna think about the future of the electric guitar just take a look at all the metrics involved. This includes "buzz" such as traffic in forums and such. Look at this forum for instance, measure the number of posts since 2011 (or even before) till today. Electric guitar is pretty much dead. Rock'n'roll is dead. Dislike me all you want, but cannot change the course that things have taken.
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col
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Post by col on May 11, 2018 1:55:38 GMT -5
Moving goalposts. ... Virtuosos and "the best of the best" don't represent the "average" guitarist's choices any more than Lewis Hamilton and Sebastian Vettel do for the "average motorist". It's boring writing trivial facts : a) THE BEST GUITARISTS ARE THE ONES WHO DRIVE THE MARKET b) the average MODERN (not beginner, did i ever say beginner ?) guitarist of today is a VIRTUOSO (ESPECIALLY compared to the "guitar legend" of the 60s) It's very simple actually. I am sure you'll go around in circles again, as always to disprove my point, but I don't think i'll bother answering. And if you really wanna think about the future of the electric guitar just take a look at all the metrics involved. This includes "buzz" such as traffic in forums and such. Look at this forum for instance, measure the number of posts since 2011 (or even before) till today. Electric guitar is pretty much dead. Rock'n'roll is dead. Dislike me all you want, but cannot change the course that things have taken. I've no dog in the fight, but, GD, I think you have misunderstand/misinterpreted the word virtuoso*. It means highly skilled in anything (but especially music). If I read you correctly, you are suggesting that "average MODERN" guitarists are much better musicians than "guitar legends of the 60s", so they should be considered as 'virtuosos'. Putting aside how I and others might disagree with your assertion that average modern guitarists are better the 'guitar heroes of the past', 'average' relates to all those in the pool as it exists (now). * Virtuoso - as you probably know - is an Italian word, appropriated into English long ago. I suspect that it is not used in Greek**, so there is no reason why you should know its precise meaning. But, to be frank, I think this is more about you being determined to win the argument, as your English (and presumably its appropriations of Italian words) is excellent. ** Seems that my assumption about that may be wrong. It appears that there is a close derivative word in Greek (though it could have derived from the original Latin word, virtuosus). The Romanised version of the Greek word being, virtouózos. I'm not meaning to cause an argument with you. Just calling it like I see it.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2018 2:48:53 GMT -5
I've no dog in the fight, but, I have not owned any dogs either, ever I don't care about winning any argument. Too busy.
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Post by newey on May 11, 2018 6:24:44 GMT -5
GD-
I don't think anyone's disagreeing with you on that. In the very first post on this thread, I said essentially the same. Where you are getting argument is the idea that "virtuosos" who buy fanned fret, 7 or 8 string guitars are "driving the market". If that were true, then the biggest-selling models should be fanned fret 7 or 8 string guitars- and they clearly aren't. When I walk into my local music shop, there are hundreds of guitars on the walls- but there are NO fanned fret 7 or 8 strings. If there was a demand for those, they'd have them. But they don't, because it's a tiny fraction of the market.
If you want to assert that that's where all the innovation in guitars takes place, fine, we could debate that but I wouldn't rule out that point as potentially valid. But we're talking mass-market sales here. Gibson isn't going under because they didn't jump into the 7-string market; Fender's not in that market either, and they're doing OK because they sell a hootload of Squier Strats (and P-basses, amps, and other things as well).
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2018 6:41:29 GMT -5
GD- I don't think anyone's disagreeing with you on that. In the very first post on this thread, I said essentially the same. Where you are getting argument is the idea that "virtuosos" who buy fanned fret, 7 or 8 string guitars are "driving the market". If that were true, then the biggest-selling models should be fanned fret 7 or 8 string guitars- and they clearly aren't. When I walk into my local music shop, there are hundreds of guitars on the walls- but there are NO fanned fret 7 or 8 strings. If there was a demand for those, they'd have them. But they don't, because it's a tiny fraction of the market. If you want to assert that that's where all the innovation in guitars takes place, fine, we could debate that but I wouldn't rule out that point as potentially valid. But we're talking mass-market sales here. Gibson isn't going under because they didn't jump into the 7-string market; Fender's not in that market either, and they're doing OK because they sell a hootload of Squier Strats (and P-basses, amps, and other things as well). I agree, truth must be somewhere in the middle. In the stores there are not many new designs, but ppl get those online. The iconic Strat had big names behind it with great talent and great records. The same is true for the LP or SG. But this was till the 90s. Then the big names started using other designs, Ibanezes, ESPs, and so forth. People buy traditionally but investors think evolutionary. How many electric cars did Toyota sell?? However they are still leading this sector cause they want to be the ones who move the evolution. And this has an impact back to the clients in a self loop feedback manner, like a circle. Tata or some domestic chinese maker sell *many* cars, but they dont lead the market. Its about prestige as well. Its nice to have a crappy low-end BMW knowing that the brand name is worth a lot and that this company makes super cars, than having lets say a Tata even if this is cheaper and more reliable than the BMW!! But BMW does not sell history or vintage. They work their butt off to design those super cars! So the prestige does not come just by itself. And if lets say, (swithcing to guitars) Stanberg or Kiesel or Agile produce those super-guitars of tomorrow, what will be left for old Fender and Gibson? They will look more like "Tata" in the cars-analogy presented above. Anyway, that's my POV
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Post by blademaster2 on May 11, 2018 9:11:51 GMT -5
I remain slightly more optimistic about guitar and R&R in general.
Short term, low ebb for sure (I saw it in 1982 also). However my son and his friends still hold high regard for classic and Prog rock and say that the 70s was the best decade. They hate today's offerings. I cannot honestly believe that Hip Hop, cheap drum machines, videos of bikini-clad twerking women and rappers wearing gold chains in Hollywood mansions will not *someday* get tiresome for more of the industry and public.
Maybe the next wave will be more electronic and techno, maybe acid jazz, maybe something else before guitar comes around again but I believe that the honesty and expressive nature of our beloved instrument will survive even if Gibson does not. After all, music with the message that "Rock is Dead" has been around for decades, and even the Beatles in 1965 felt that their run of success would be brief.
Of all groups of folks out there, at least *we* Nutz need to keep the faith.
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Post by newey on May 11, 2018 9:15:08 GMT -5
They will continue to be low-volume producers catering to a small segment of the market, for people who are already accomplished players or professionals. Beginners aren't going to jump in the deep end with a 7-string, they'll continue to buy 6-strings.
Well, as for Fender, they'll be selling lots of guitars, from entry-level to Custom-Shop designs for the Pros. They'll sell many more of those guitars to Country players, as I said earlier, and lots of acoustics, which has always been three times as big a market.
Gibson, well, we'll see how they come out of the bankruptcy proceedings, but I suspect they will end up as a high-end low-volume producer catering mostly to professional musicians, and competing primarily with Fender's Custom Shop and various boutique builders.
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Post by reTrEaD on May 11, 2018 11:39:07 GMT -5
I am sure you'll go around in circles again, as always My logic is direct and linear. The only circles involved here are those you spin yourself. It's boring writing trivial facts : While the two sentences you wrote following that are correctly characterized as trivial, calling them 'facts' is an overstatement, particularly in regards to them supporting your earlier claims. a) THE BEST GUITARISTS ARE THE ONES WHO DRIVE THE MARKET Fanned frets and 7-string guitars (which were at the core of your errant supposition, earlier) have been around for decades. How have the "best guitarists" driven the market in that aspect? Their impact in that matter has been meager. While there has been at least a doubling of market share for guitars with fanned frets and/or 7-string and 8-string guitars, the market share for them is a tiny fraction. Yes, the most visible guitarists and those selling lots of recordings do affect the market, although in many cases those who sell the most records aren't the "best" guitarists. Fender has cashed in well on sales of their Stratocaster and Telecaster models named for various guitarists. Electric guitar is pretty much dead. It surely isn't what it once was. Dead? I think not. Sales continue to this day and will continue going forward. Smaller market? Definitely. But not insignificant. I remember hearing that same false claim during the Disco era. Decades later, rock and roll still survives yet Disco faded into near obscurity. But that's another red-herring you presented in your circle-spinning. Rock and roll never was the exclusive use of an electric guitar and whether or not it survives won't change the fact that electric guitars continue to be an integral part of today's music. The strong sales of Country music proves that.
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Post by reTrEaD on May 13, 2018 9:36:36 GMT -5
It seems Joe Bonamassa has some skin in this game. What does Joe Bonamassa do in his downtime? If he’s not recording, touring or guitar shopping, he’s working on signature models with Epiphone, it seems, and he’s already teased next year’s: the Joe Bonamassa ES-355 www.musicradar.com/news/joe-bonamassa-teases-signature-epiphone-es-355-guitars-for-2019And that does provide a clue as to one path Gibson might take if they hope to emerge from bankruptcy. Although the Epi headstock is ugly AF, high end Epis and Gibsons will be an area of focus, particularly in small regions of the market where they've traditionally dominated. Like hollowbody jazz boxes. If they go on a diet and undergo liposuction to remove excess fat, then focus on being great as a small company, they might position themselves for growth in the long run. Maybe.
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