Help Please? HH with 5 way, Coil Split and Coil Choise.

[papaginseng]

Hello All,

I am new to this Forum so i hope i am posting this in the right thread.
Last year i started out building a guitar from scratch ( well .. raw body and neck were bought ). I got most of it done by gettin answers to all my questions on the web.
But now i am stuck. I am a guitarist with NO knowledge of elektronics. I tried to work my way thru all the theory and such .. but its beyond me, honestly.
What i am seeking to do is the following:

2 Humbuckers + 5 way Switch + 2 Volume ( Push / Pull ) + 2 Tone ( Push / Pull ).

5 way Switch:
    1. Neck
    2. PUs in Series
    3. PUs Parallel
    4. PU out of Phase
    5. Bridge
Volume: Does Coil Split
Tone: Selects wich of the 2 Coils will be active.

Now i found tons of wiring schemes that do .. something .. like this. But i am not able to adapt it to do just this.

If anyone can shed a light on how to achive that it would be awesome. Atm i keep looking at my guitar ( buhuu ) without hardware.
any help would be greatly appreciated

Kind regards,
Marc

[newey]

pg-

Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2!

We can definitely help with this, but there is one big question we need answered before we can begin: What type of 5-way switch do you have?

What you want can be achieved, but it will require the Superswitch™ or an equivalent 4-pole, 5 throw (4P5T) switch. The standard Strat-style 5-way switch, as found on myriad Strat-type and other guitars, is just a 2P3T switch and won't do what you want here.

Second, and not that I'm trying to talk you out of your desired scheme, but food for thought, is the topic of hum-cancellation. If you are using one P/P to split both HBs to single coils, typically one would want to select one slug coil with the other screw coil so as to have the series and parallel 2-pup combos be hum-cancelling. That can certainly be done with a push/pull. But if the second P/P then just flips to the opposite coils, you'll still have hum-cancellation but that setting isn't likely to sound much different either way. OTOH, if your goal is to select inner coils vs. outer coils with that switch, hum-cancellation will require rotating one of the HBs 180°; (or by flipping magnets around on one of the two HBs, but that's a whole 'nother level of complexity here)

[papaginseng]

Hi

Thank you!
I do Think i got the right 5-way. Its a rotary knob with 4 underlying "layers" ( well 2 .. ).

Food for thought is always good. yes!
Hum canceling: Good point. I took that into account .. my simple thought was: Hmm can't be that bad?! But since i havent found a soundclip yet of how it sounds, i've got no reference.

So:
Will the "not" humcanceling be that bad? And wont I have that issue with the coil split on one, and the other being in HB mode?
If no ( on the last ). Then why not live with the not-canceling, so that i can still get the coil select wenn in Single-HB mode. ( Using a SD 59 / Hybrid )?

But maybe i am making this to simple?
Kind regards,
Marc

[newey]

Will the "not" humcanceling be that bad?

This depends on a number of factors, starting with your perception of: "How bad is bad?". The electrical environment (neon lights, fluorescent tubes, fan motors) also varies from place to place, so while your practice space may be tolerable, the juke joint where the boys are playing next Friday may be a different story. But there are certainly those who don't bother themselves with hum cancelling. Do these people sleep well at night? I dunno, I err on the side of maximizing hum cancelling where possible.

And wont I have that issue with the coil split on one, and the other being in HB mode?

I thought we were splitting both HBs with one push/pull, making the above scenario unachievable.

Then why not live with the not-canceling, so that i can still get the coil select wenn in Single-HB mode. ( Using a SD 59 / Hybrid )?

See the above, I'm still confused on the wish list here.

Originally:

Volume: Does Coil Split
Tone: Selects wich of the 2 Coils will be active.

Correct me if I am misapprehending what you intend here. I took this statement to mean that you wanted a single P/P on the Volume to simultaneously split both HBs to single coil operation (meaning you would either have 2 SCs or 2 HBs, but never one of each), and that the tone P/P would then switch between the 2 coils of both HBs.

I should have added that you might not hear much difference if the HBs had identical coils, but if the coils are dissimilar, then there may well be an audible, useful difference.

I was not suggesting that you had to give up anything to get hum-cancellation, you don't. You can have your hum-cancellation and your coil selections, too. I just thought you ought to consider the subject.

[papaginseng]

Thank you again!

To clarify: The orignial intend was to make this wiring all versatile ( with total disrespect of humcancelation )
So .. to make both HB splittable and selectable.

I have 2 SD PUs: www.seymourduncan.com/pickup/59custom-hybrid and Seymour Duncan SSHPG1N BLK. Now the SH-16 ( 59 / Hybrid ) is the one that is differently wound.

@newew: Thanks for trying to help here. I value ur input a lot and it has given me a lot to process up to a point where i am not sure that this all splittable / selectable is the right thing.
I "came up" with this wiring mainly for the reason:
1: That i can have the SC sound on the Guitar ( wich would be perfectly allright if its only inner or outer Coils )
2: That i can have the Pearly Gates go with any of the 2 Coils on the Bridge PU. ( Is this doable without making hum? )
3: That in Single HB mode in can select either of the 2 coils.

Another food for thought was: The hum we would be creating on some of the settings would be below 60Hz? Since this guitar is only used at home and in my homestudio, wouldnt this be rolled of anyhow on the mix ( usually, on the guitars, i have a anything below, lets say 80Hz, out of the mix )?

So ye :-) i considered / pondering / thought and rethought. Thank you.
To sum up: Its mainly the SH-16 that i want to shine. so points 2 and 3 are the main reason i would like this. Is this doable without any hum? Prolly not.
Is there any "Traditional ( non humming )" wiring that comes close to this?

Kind regards,
Marc

[JohnH]

When you engage coil combos that are not humcancanceling, its usually not too bad. Like a single-coil hum approximately.

But it is often not just 60hz (or 50hz where I live). There can be higher haronics of mains-generated buzz dependent on what appliances and lighting is nearby. Good shielding and grounding help significantly.

[papaginseng]

Ok. Tried to read more on how PUs work .. Polarity and Phase. ( Dizzy now! )
Would this be correct if i wanted to sum my Scheme up: ( Using 5 way, and 2 * 2 P/P )

1. Neck + 5 Bridge: Coilsplit and Select Ok .. since only 1 PU active.
2. PUs in Series and 3 PUs Parallel: 

• Leaving 1 of the HB as HB, Single coiling the other, will give: one Humcanceling and one not.                                                    
  
• Splitting both i would have 2 canceling and 2 not canceling.

4. PUs out of Phase: I gotto pass on that one :-P

Right?
So most traditionally wired Guitars that Split HBs will tend to only wire the hum canceling combinations?

With the way i would like to wire, i get all? And then i choose for canceling or not?

Kind regards,
Marc

[newey]

This was exactly why I was trying to get you to "zero in" on exactly what you want. Your latest wish list is certainly possible, but it may not be possible to do so with just two P/Ps. Consider that a P/P has but two positions, meaning it can only do two separate things.

You have (apparently) a 4 pole rotary switch with 5 positions (we probably should verify that this is exactly what you have.) As you have listed it currently, including an out-of-phase setting and a series setting, you will have used up all of the poles on that switch. For now, we'll hold that thought that you had of eliminating the out of phase and come back to that later.

So, the 5-way switch is then accounted for, and we have 2 P/Ps left. If you want to be able to split each HB independent of the other, so that you can have SC/HB combos, then each pickup gets its own coil-cut switch-"down" is full HB, "up" splits to one coil. This can then be set up to split to opposite coils for each one (i.e., one HB splits to the North coil, other to the South), giving hum-cancellation when both switches are "up"). Typically, you'll then have one inner coil with one outer, but again, rotating one HB can allow for either inners or outers. But we have now used up both P/Ps, and you can't select which coil gets split (without adding more switching).

Or, if you decide that it's the individual coils of the hybrid you want, we could use both P/Ps to split the hybrid-one P/P does the split, the other selects which coil of the hybrid you get. But now we've used up the two P/Ps and the Pearly Gates doesn't get split.

Given that you want HB/SC options, the two above scenarios are where we're at. As stated earlier, we can also split both HBs at once with one P/P, but this doesn't give any SC/HB possibilities.

Now, back to the 5-way. If we eliminate the phase option, this then allows for some more possibilities, and might(I emphasize might 'cause I'm not sure this can all be done until we put pen to paper) allow for all you want to do, but with the added limitation that it may take manipulation of multiple switches to get at all the desired settings. Basically, one P/P would become a "mode switch" controlling the 5-way rotary into two separate modes. Your SC selections then move to the second "mode" of the 5-way switch. The other P/P selects which coil gets split. Again, I think something like that might work for you, but it gets rather "switchy" in that you end up having to manipulate three separate switches to get the various coils you want. Not great for switching on the fly, but maybe not a deal-breaker if you don't play live or don't switch in mid-song.

[papaginseng]

Heyas .. Just to clarify:

1* 5-way-switch for options: Neck, Series, Parallel, Phased, Bridge
4* P/P ( 2*2 P/P ): 2 for Coilsplit and 2 for Coil selection .. Like Vol and Tone Poti go for one HB: Vol ( Pull ) Coilsplits and Tone ( Pull ) Switches the Coil.

I loved the the thingie with using one P/P to give the 5-way a differnt function ( sounds nasty ) but shouldnt i have enough room on the switch and enough Potis ( P/P ) to realize this?

Kind regards,
Marc

[newey]

Sorry, I misunderstood, you have 4 P/Ps.

OK, so each HB gets its own set of two.

I'll have a go at a diagram for this, I don't think we have exactly this in the archives. But it may be next week before I can get to it, as work takes over my life for the next few days.

[papaginseng]

Thank you! very so much. It is really greatly appreciated that you would take the time for this.
I wouldnt have been able to do this even if i studied this subject foranother decade ( or two ) so another few days .. wow that would be nice!

Again. Thank you!
Kind regards,
Marc

Oh.. here some pictures of how things look. now.

[newey]

Its a rotary knob with 4 underlying "layers" ( well 2 .. ).

If it is a 4-pole rotary with 2 decks, it will have 12 soldering lugs on each of the two decks. Let's first verify that this is what you have. A pic of the switch would be great.

[papaginseng]

Heyas.

Its a 4-pole rotary: It has, as you said, 12 lugs on each "layer".
But has 5 positions. www.rockinger.com/index.php/de/5-fach-Drehschalter/c-WG121/a-07015




Kind regards,
Marc

[newey]

Marc-

OK, here's a first stab at this. We will need it vetted, my confidence level that it is correct is about 50%. I think it does what you want. At position 4, I made the Out-of-phase setting to be series out-of-phase (SOOP). You didn't specify which way you wanted it, and SOOP generally sounds better than POOP.

However, I am not sure that you won't have a dead spot (or spots) in the series setting and in the series OOP setting when the coil cut switch(es) are pulled and with one particular coil selected.

[papaginseng]

Hey Newey

First of all, awesome! Thank u for remembering this.
Vetted? I guess u mean .. looked over?

Ok .. and Soop deffo sounds better than Poop ( i like the smell much better as well )

With dead spots u mean: where there is a setting .. nottin will come out?

Kind regards
Marc

[newey]

With dead spots u mean: where there is a setting .. nottin will come out?

Yes. And that's one reason I want someone else to look this over, one, to see if I'm right an that, and two, to see if there is a way around that problem. And, yes, by "vetting", I mean having someone else double-check it generally to ensure I haven't made some other error.

[reTrEaD]

Mar 6, 2018 7:17:46 GMT -5 newey said:

With dead spots u mean: where there is a setting .. nottin will come out?

Yes. And that's one reason I want someone else to look this over, one, to see if I'm right an that, and two, to see if there is a way around that problem. And, yes, by "vetting", I mean having someone else double-check it generally to ensure I haven't made some other error.

Normally I'd be happy to do that but I'm juggling a bunch of other things, atm. Let's tag the usual suspects and see if one of them might not be too busy.

JohnH Yogi B sumgai wolf ashcatlt

[Yogi B]

Looks good apart from that the grounds from the neck controls should be attached to the neck's south start (green wire) rather than directly to ground.

Other than that, the splitting / coil selection could be tidied up a bit: the split switches disconnect the series links only to have the coil selection switches re-connect them in either position.

---

I always like to run stuff like this through QCoils, both to check I'm not missing anything, and as a test to see if it produces the correct output. In this case the latter was false: Qcoils returned the output from position 5 (neck) was nothing whenever the bridge pickup was set to split to the south coil. Obviously that was nonsense.

[newey]

Looks good apart from that the grounds from the neck controls should be attached to the neck's south start (green wire) rather than directly to ground.

Other than that, the splitting / coil selection could be tidied up a bit: the split switches disconnect the series links only to have the coil selection switches re-connect them in either position

Thanks, Yogi. I'll make those changes just to have a final version of the diagram. PG, if this is what you want, then you should be good to go once I do so.

[newey]

Here's V2.0:




Now, I show the green wires from the switches connected to the green pickup wires with (green) dots. (All other wires which cross and which do not have a dot do not connect.) I do not mean that you should actually solder one wire to another. I showed it that way on the diagram just to avoid creating even more "spaghetti". IRL, you should wire all the greens to the same place- to the common on the rotary for the neck green(s) and to the grounding point for the bridge green(s).

And, thanks again, Yogi, I did a facepalm when I looked at that N/S selector again. What was I thinking?

[Yogi B]

Mar 6, 2018 22:30:36 GMT -5 newey said:

And, thanks again, Yogi, I did a facepalm when I looked at that N/S selector again. What was I thinking?

The way I'd envisaged it both ends of the series link would be permanently connected at one of the centre terminals of the coil split switch. Thus the link to the coil select going from only a single "up" terminal.

However I'd be more concerned as to why the tone caps are labelled R1 & R2.

[papaginseng]

Lol. Amazing!
Thanks again for doing this!
Its all a bunch of jibberisch lol. I dont understand a word ur saying.

But this scene keeps popping to my mind: What wire do we cut? The red or the blue? From Lethal Weapon :-P

For now i think i ll just wait a bit till someone says: Yes! Now Solder! And i ll prolly go Nuts from looking at the scheme.

Kind regards,
Marc

[newey]

However I'd be more concerned as to why the tone caps are labelled R1 & R2

UGH. Well, at least I made them green like the poly capacitors.

PG- what Yogi means is that the second diagram is good to go, except the capacitors on the tone controls I mislabeled as if they were resistors. Should have been "C1" and "C2" instead. JUst be sure to use capacitors for those green things and you'll be fine.

If you have questions, fire away. Better to get a clear understanding before you start than to have to troubleshoot afterwards.

[papaginseng]

Awesome.

Well there'll be lots of questions prolly. But for today  i ll prolly only gonna do all the "in between" cables.
First question would be:

What way am i looking at the rotary? is the turning knob on the bottom or the top?

And, do i get this correct? .. there is gonna be 6 wires running all the way thru the guitar .. to the rotary? Just asking so i know wich wire ( thickness ) to take ( as the wholes are rather small ).

And, From the Top Pick Up, the green wire, can i lay that on the Coil N/S .. and then Connect Coil N/S to Coil Split where the green wires are and then go up to the rotary?

And with Ground u mean either of the Poti-backs? right?

Kind regards,
Marc

[newey]

And with Ground u mean either of the Poti-backs? right?

If that's where you will be grounding things, yes. I personally dislike soldering to the backs of pots; modern ones are mostly plastic inside and I've ruined my share by holding an iron on the back of the pot for too long. So, I use "star grounding"; if you search these forums for that term you'll find a wealth of info on using star grounding.

Tip: If you are going to use the back of the pot, use a tiny piece of sandpaper to "rough up" the back of the pot a little- you'll get the solder to adhere better that way.

What way am i looking at the rotary? is the turning knob on the bottom or the top?

You're looking at it from the bottom, and with the two "decks" separated for the purposes of the diagram. But it really doesn't matter- since it's a rotary, it's rotationally symmetric. So, if the positions aren't where you want them once you install it into the guitar, you can simply rotate the switch.

However, another tip: Most rotary switches will have an "index tab", which is a little metal tab which sticks out a bit. These are meant to be installed not into a round hole, but a round hole with a little notch to fit the index tab. The purpose of this is to keep the entire switch from rotating in the hole as you turn the knob. It locks the body of the switch into place. You should make use of the tab; this means cutting a notch in the hole to fit the tab. And, make sure the switch is in the position you want it before you mark and cut for the tab.

And, From the Top Pick Up, the green wire, can i lay that on the Coil N/S .. and then Connect Coil N/S to Coil Split where the green wires are and then go up to the rotary?

If you mean: "Can I 'daisy-chain' the green wires from pickup to switch to switch to rotary?", the answer is "no"- there must be a direct connection between the pickup green and the rotary as shown on the diagram.

And, do i get this correct? .. there is gonna be 6 wires running all the way thru the guitar .. to the rotary? Just asking so i know wich wire ( thickness ) to take ( as the wholes are rather small ).

Well, I only count 5 wires, but you might need to enlarge the hole. 22 AWG wire (or 20 gauge) is typically used, if you go much smaller than that soldering becomes more difficult and the whole thing is more fragile.

[papaginseng]

Ok Thanks all clear.

Except for the bit: From the picture it looks like i am running 3 green wires up onto the switch.
1. The PU.
2. The Coil N/S
3. The Coil Split.
I need to prevent this! Too much wire and my wire is too thick as it is ( used 0.5 ).
So .. i really cannot do PU => Coil N/S => Coil Split => Switch?
If not .. where do i connect Coil N/S and Coil Split to? U said in a earlier post .. connect them to the comon on the rotary .. would make 7 going up? right?

Kind regards,
Marc

[newey]

Sorry, PG, my prior was unclear, and I realized it as I was running out the door this morning . . .

What I meant was that you cannot connect the green wires across the switches, that is, those wires cannot be subject to the switching. You can wire from pickup to switch, and onward, as long as you are connecting to the same lug on the switch.

Hopefully that's more clear . . .

[papaginseng]

Perfectly!

Unfortunately i have to wait for new wire to arrive. The one i used is just to thick to fit thru the wholes that are predrilled ( and i dont have a drill that goes horizontally ).
Allthough i am not sure this is gonna help me cause from the specs the outer diameter is only 0.2mm apart. Cross my fingers. I have some short bits of wire still laying about and will try out this afternoon to see if both PU wires AND the 5 wires coming from "above" will fit thru.

Allready, Thank u greatly for ur Help. I would have been totally lost without your help.
So yes! I appreciate it very much for You, and others, to make time for a Person u don't really know and help out in such a way!

Rock on!

Kind regards,
Marc.

[newey]

It is always the case that, regardless of how neat and cool a given wiring scheme may be, it doesn't mean anything if you can't get it into the guitar.

There are several ways those holes can be enlarged without a right-angle drill. In fact, I have a right-angle drill but it's useless for this sort of thing because the drill head is too big to fit horizontally into the cavity- it would end up drilling at an angle through the back of the guitar body.

I have successfully enlarged holes between cavities using a piece of a rat-tail file. The whole file was too long, so I put the length I wanted in a vise and broke off the tang and the rest of the file with a blow from a hammer (down and dirty, but high-carbon tool steel is hard to saw, but is pretty brittle). There are probably more elegant ways to do it as well. It is slow going with the file, but eventually I got the hole large enough.

[papaginseng]

Aye Aye,

I tested the new wires today .. but the hole is only big enuf for the to PU cables.
Doesnt matter.
Enlarging the premade hole is no option, i have neither the tools ( nor the patience for that ). And my file is too valuable to just chop it :-P

Gonna use a drill and shizzle to just chop a new channel thru the body ( its under the pickguard anyhow ).

Like i said: This is my first guitar ( twont be the last ) and a lot has been learned during the process. i ll Finish this project now this way. So i have a sound sample of what this set up can do. After that i restart the project but this time the mistakes made will be eliminated from the start ( and new ones will arise ). Thus: Purchasing a body that is more up to specifications and has a way better finish, maybe even buy a neck that fits to the body ( without chopping it up ). Doing the sanding and paintwork in a waaay more orderly fashion. Adding the hardware ( bridge and mechanics ) measured .. and not on: "Oooh this looks ok". And making sure! that the wiring will have place have enuf space inside :-).
Also a few more issues have arisen from this boards thread. Star Grounding ( and thus SHIELDING ), And the obvious .. does a guitar need to do everything, or do certain "positions" just dont make sense.
This guitar has 2 HB wich are switchable to any position. Who needs that? Well .. someone that wants a reference for how this all would sound. My next guitar prolly will be just a "diminition" of this. Reduced to the setting most used / usable. Prolly standards u all r used to.

Hopefully, i ll have sunday to finish up the drilling and wiring.
I am not sure? what is forum standard, do we post "done" pics and sounds samples? video?
Just let me know please because i will be happy to do so. Not only because i am proud of this "insane" project, but because i couldnt have done this without sites/forums like GuitarNutz ( newey will get named credit! ).

Thanks!
Marc ( PapaGinseng )