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Post by eljib on Jan 26, 2006 16:30:22 GMT -5
Hey there, everyone. I am going to be attempting John A's "S-Tastic" mod for the second time, and I've thought of some personal customizations I would like to make this time around, but I want to run them by you first to see what you think. Since I have never found tone controls to be useful, I wanted to replace the single tone control for a GFS on-board pre-amp. Probably this one: cgi.ebay.com/Built-in-Guitar-Distortion-Active-Overdrive-Circuit-F03_W0QQitemZ7340092631QQcategoryZ41416QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItemAlso, I've never much cared for volume controls either, since I prefer the sound of a pickup either completely on, or completely off. So this mod, with its TWO volume controls, is not as user-friendly as I think it could be, especially because of the wierd stuff that happens when you start rolling off one of the volume knobs. In John A's own words: "I highly recommend the optional second tone control. Without the second tone control the behaviour of the middle volume control will be just a touch quirky. With both volume controls turned all the way up and the neck or bridge pickup selected the behaviour will be exactly as on a stock Strat. However, if you roll either volume control off just a little the middle pickup gets isolated from the tone control and the treble will increase. Then, as the middle volume is rolled off further the treble will again decrease as the pickup is mixed out. This isn't a big problem, and might even be used to advantage, as long as you're aware of it." Also, this mod also calls for 500K pots to isolate the two volumes from each other. So then, I've got a few questions: 1. If adding a second tone control isupposed to remedy this isolation problem, what about getting rid of the tone (control) altogether? 2. If I lose the mid volume control and go for an on/off switch, would anything need to go in its place to isolate the pickups from each other? (I believe this was the original reasoning for the 500K pots). 3. Can anyone give me their opinion on the on-board effect I plan on using? I've ordered things before from the GFS guys, and it's all been very good quality, but I can't find any reviews for this particular effect. 4. Considering that the rules for me are that the end result looks stock fender, eliminate the wierdo in-between 0 and 10 treble imbalances, and get as many options out of what I already have inside the guitar (with the exception of a possible push/pull to activate the mid pup)...What sort of ideas do you have for implementing such a design? My own thoughts have led me toward the following: - Stock volume control as a master volume (thats redundant) - Stock neck tone control replaced with a push/pull pot to function as master tone AND on/off switch for mid pup. - Stock mid tone control as GFS 5-way overdrive selector. As far as I can tell (with my limited understanding of such things) this configuration will not be breaking any of the tabu's set forth in John A's explanation. (Also, as you can see, I have had a change of heart about eliminating tone and volume options, because I think this setup will get rid of the things I hated about them originally) ANY feedback is welcome! Thanks, Aaron |
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Post by jhng on Jan 26, 2006 19:22:22 GMT -5
I've always been tempted by the following:
"Basic" S-Tastic fiveway switching for the Neck and Bridge;
Master Volume and Tone;
Six position rotary switch controlling the Middle pickup (instead of the second Tone control).
The six positions would be:
1) Fiveway alone
2) Fiveway plus Middle in parallel
3) Fiveway plus Middle in series
4) Fiveway plus Middle in series and out of phase
5) Fiveway plus Middle in parallel and out of phase
6) Middle alone
A grand total of 26 distinct combinations. Haven't tried them all but the only seriously dud one I know is (N and B in parallel) in series with Middle. Sounds rubbish, IMO.
You'd have to have the patience of a saint to do the soldering, though!
Hastings
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Post by UnklMickey on Jan 26, 2006 19:44:27 GMT -5
...You'd have to have the patience of a saint to do the soldering, though!... well, you know what Archie says about patience! one bit of advice that will help make the soldering to the switch a little bit easier: use a panavise or other adjustable holder if you can get one. that will give you a secure way to hold the switch above your work surface. make all your interconnects first, while you have easy access to the switch. then mount the switch on the pickguard and complete the wiring. leaving the pickup connections for last. it still requires patience, just no quite as much. unk |
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Post by Mini-Strat_Maine on Jan 26, 2006 22:08:27 GMT -5
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Post by eljib on Jan 27, 2006 1:43:25 GMT -5
jhng: Wow, now that's the kind of contribution I was hoping to get. You got my mind spinning with new ideas. Hopefully, anyone who thought that my idea for lighted pickup indicators would be useless can now see where it might be beneficial!
As for the master volume and tone, am I to understand that there are no problems with such a thing?
And since I have never worked with push/pull pots I need to ask if they would be suitable for my needs. Could I make one function as a on/off switch for the mid pup, and still have it be the master tone regardless of switch position? I'm pretty sure that's what they do, but I'm not clear about if there are different types in which 0-10 value applies to two different positions. I just want to be sure about it because I'll probably have to order one.
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Post by UnklMickey on Jan 27, 2006 2:13:07 GMT -5
...Hopefully, anyone who thought that my idea for lighted pickup indicators would be useless can now see where it might be beneficial!.... Aaron, if i am the one who made you think that my opinion was, your idea was useless, let me apologies. that was not my thinking at all. the limitation of it, is that it requires that you have poles available on your switches to implement it. i never seem to have enough poles available to implement the signal functions for my ideas, so for me, i probably couldn't make it work. if you can do what you need to with your switches, and can fit the lights in too, well that's not useless at all. as far as the other questions you had, i'll just get out of the way and let you and hastings chat. you two seem to be starting off to a really great relationship. further conversations between you guys will no doubt lead to good results. unk |
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Post by jhng on Jan 27, 2006 11:45:28 GMT -5
jhng: Wow, now that's the kind of contribution I was hoping to get. Thanks! It occurs to me that you could also have the same functionality by using three push/pulls: a) Middle pup on/off b) Middle pup series/parallel (when (a) is "on", obviously!) c) Middle pup in/out of phase (ditto!) (Or something similar to provide for "Middle alone" as well). As for the master volume and tone, am I to understand that there are no problems with such a thing? None at all. The tone issues discussed in Mr A's text only occur when you have two independent volume controls. And since I have never worked with push/pull pots I need to ask if they would be suitable for my needs. Could I make one function as a on/off switch for the mid pup, and still have it be the master tone regardless of switch position? I'm pretty sure that's what they do, but I'm not clear about if there are different types in which 0-10 value applies to two different positions. I just want to be sure about it because I'll probably have to order one. They might be suitable. A bit fiddly to use, so I tend to reserve push/pull pots for functions that I will only use occasionally. I try to get the everyday "bread and butter" stuff on a Three-Way with a couple of knobs. There are several different kinds of pots. I think GN1 has some discussion of volume and tone controls. In fact it's well worth dedicating some time to a thorough study of all the stuff on GN1 if you haven't yet. Key questions: a) "Linear or Audio Taper?" b) If Audio Taper -"Right or Left handed?" c) Value d) For push/pulls -"DPDT switch or SPDT switch" Hastings |
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Post by eljib on Jan 28, 2006 1:35:21 GMT -5
Aaron, if i am the one who made you think that my opinion was, your idea was useless, let me apologies. that was not my thinking at all. the limitation of it, is that it requires that you have poles available on your switches to implement it. i never seem to have enough poles available to implement the signal functions for my ideas, so for me, i probably couldn't make it work. if you can do what you need to with your switches, and can fit the lights in too, well that's not useless at all. as far as the other questions you had, i'll just get out of the way and let you and hastings chat. you two seem to be starting off to a really great relationship. further conversations between you guys will no doubt lead to good results. unk Don't try to fool ME, Unk. We all know how you feel about new-comers and their foolish dreams of guitar wiring enlightenment  Actually, I had been having a hard time explaining my reasoning for wanting lights, and Hastings' 2-switch/26 sound Strat perfectly illustrated my intended usage. In other words, I never thought of the lights as being "decorative." Rather, they would represent what was going on electrically, thus eliminating the need for someone to look down and try to determine it from 5-way and rotary positions...in the dark...on stage...with millions of screaming fans. Okay, that last part may only apply to me  , but surely you can see the benefit of lights in helping you keep track of 26 positions. No harm done, Unk. Now, back to the topic. Anyone know where I can get a push/push? And how about that effect I mentioned in the first thread? Comments/Suggestions are always welcome. And does anyone think I'd be able to change the pot on that effect with push/pull? -Aaron |
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Post by Mini-Strat_Maine on Jan 28, 2006 6:48:21 GMT -5
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Post by Runewalker on Jan 28, 2006 12:21:37 GMT -5
If you must have a "push-push" you can buy the Zep dvd of 'the Song Remains the Same' and view multiple crotch shots of RPlant punctuating nearly every song with "Push..Push". If that is not what you meant then an alternative is: secure.tubesandmore.com/an interesting store that I believe first got started in the vintage radio restoration parts business --- Wulitzer, Philco, etc. ... but has branched out into tube amp, chassis, and guitar parts. Go to the potentiometer link. Push....Push. |
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Post by Mini-Strat_Maine on Jan 28, 2006 12:52:30 GMT -5
an alternative is: secure.tubesandmore.com/an interesting store that I believe first got started in the vintage radio restoration parts business --- Wulitzer, Philco, etc. ... but has branched out into tube amp, chassis, and guitar parts. Dagnabbit, I wish I'd seen that before I bought a 1Meg push/pull at about twice AES' price.  |
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Post by eljib on Jan 28, 2006 15:54:31 GMT -5
Sweet deal! Where do you guys find these links?
In response to Hastings' question: I'm looking at (probably 3) right-hand, audio taper, DPDT. What values do you guys recomend? 500K or 250K? The pickups are from a standard Fender MIM strat...and they sound REALLY good, though I don't have the readings on them yet.
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Post by Mini-Strat_Maine on Jan 28, 2006 17:27:26 GMT -5
Sweet deal! Where do you guys find these links? It was an extra-credit class at Wizard School.  The CW (Conventional Wisdom) is 250K for singlecoils, 500K for humbuckers. Then there are those who advocate "knocking down" a 500K to 300K or so with a parallel resistor, for an SSH Strat or whatever. www.projectguitar.com/tut/potm.htmUnless you have one or more really hot humbuckers on yours, we won't get into the 1 Meg (or 2 Meg) pot discussion. |
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Post by jhng on Jan 30, 2006 8:24:04 GMT -5
Thinking further about push-pulls (BTW the ones you have lined up look fine) how about:
S-Tastic 5- way for N and B;
Three push/pulls:
a) Switches on the Mid pup in parallel;
b) Switches on the Mid pup in series;
c) Mid pup phase switch.
When (a) and (b) are both pulled out you have the Middle pup alone. Should be easier to find your way around this set up than a rotary switch.
I would also suggest a Master volume and separate Tone controls for Neck and Bridge.
Hastings
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Post by eljib on Feb 1, 2006 12:34:15 GMT -5
Hastings, I really like your "on, s/p, phase" idea the best, but have not been able to find an effect to put into the unused tone slot that will still allow me to select phasing. I'm thinking about just going for a 25db boost. GFS sells one that they recommend be used with a 50K low impedance pot. How much of a difference will that make? Does anyone know of a procedure where I can disassemble two pots to make a frankenpot that would be 50K low impedance push/push?
-Aaron
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Post by Mini-Strat_Maine on Feb 1, 2006 12:57:31 GMT -5
Does anyone know of a procedure where I can disassemble two pots to make a frankenpot that would be 50K low impedance push/push? How about a parallel resistor on one "side" of the push/push? I did the math, and a 62K fixed resistor (Xicon ¼-watt metal film, to name one maker) would give you 49.679K with a (nominally) 250K pot. Then again, maybe I should just let someone who knows their impedance from their resistance work this out. |
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Post by UnklMickey on Feb 1, 2006 13:09:55 GMT -5
...Then again, maybe I should just let someone who knows their impedance from their resistance work this out.... JohnH is probably our best authority on this forum, for modifying pots, both internally and with external resistors. |
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Post by jhng on Feb 1, 2006 13:16:40 GMT -5
Hastings, I really like your "on, s/p, phase" idea the best. -Aaron Thanks! Actually, I've reckon the second version is more elegant and would be easier to work with. a) On in series b) On in parallel c) Phase And it also gives you the "Middle-alone" extra sound when both (a) and (b) are pulled. As to a control for the extra pot: How about simply having separate tone controls for Neck and Bridge? You can have different values of capacitor for each (my favourites are 0.033uf for Neck and 0.01uf for Bridge). Hastings |
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Post by JohnH on Feb 1, 2006 15:09:36 GMT -5
Does anyone know of a procedure where I can disassemble two pots to make a frankenpot that would be 50K low impedance push/push?
I have tried a bit of 'pot surgery', to get the blender on the ToneMonster2 design to work. Sometimes it is possible to totally remove the rear wafer from a dual-gang pot, in which case, a 500k pot and a 50k pot can swap wafers. However, single gang pots, and those with oter elements such as detent mechanisms, and (im guessing) push/pull switches cant do this without too much destruction.
Putting resitors in parallel can produce a reduced value, but the response of the pot is altered. For example, all of the action can get concentrated to the end of the travel, say 0-1 and/or 9-10. From 2-8, turning the pot may have very little effect. This is particularly true where a large pot resistance is being shunted by a much smaller resistor.
Not very helpful.
If you cant get a 50k pot with a switch, that GFS booster may be able to work with a higher value pot, either before or after the booster. Would need to test it before building it in however. GFS may be able to advise. The downside could be that the benefit of low output resistance is not achieved.
J
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Post by Mini-Strat_Maine on Feb 1, 2006 16:05:19 GMT -5
Putting resitors in parallel can produce a reduced value, but the response of the pot is altered. For example, all of the action can get concentrated to the end of the travel, say 0-1 and/or 9-10. From 2-8, turning the pot may have very little effect. This is particularly true where a large pot resistance is being shunted by a much smaller resistor.
Not very helpful. Oops. I'm sure that's been mentioned to me before, but this time I'll remember it. (And maybe on some future date not be so likely to wonder why what I once thought was a "bright idea" really isn't so bright.  ) |
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Post by eljib on Feb 3, 2006 2:48:55 GMT -5
I wrote GFS this afternoon to ask them about the 50K pot for the 25Db boost circuit. I don't quite understand the answer, but they sure did get back to me fast. Here is their reply:
"No I don't know of a 50K push pull- you'll have to use the push pulls and feed them into the input of the board, rather than feed the output of the board into the 50K pot
Jay"
Anyone know what he's talking about? And while I'm at it...has anyone ever heard of a 5-way rotary with push/p switching? (This is my last ditch effort find a way to add an effect for the third pot)
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Post by JohnH on Feb 3, 2006 3:33:32 GMT -5
Heres my guess - He's talking about using those higher value push/pull pots, including volume, to feed into the board. The 50k pot might be intended for use after the board. I dont know if that s the case, but it makes some electrcal sense. It would be logical to use high value pots for before the active circuit, and a low value one (being the 50k) after.
J
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Post by eljib on Feb 3, 2006 4:12:37 GMT -5
For what is's worth: GFS recommends using the 50K pot if the effect "will be used as a master device." Otherwise, the higher value pots seems to be okay. I, however, would like it to be a "master device."
Oh, well, this project is for my little bro, and I can't have his only guitar be THAT much better than ANY one of mine. I'll save the onboard effects for another day.
Now then, Hastings, I finally see the beauty and wisdom of your most recent proposal, and I was wondering if you (or anyone else capable of such things) could draw up a diagram for me? I'll be ordering the three p/p pots tonight!
Thanks for all of your help and suggestions so far, guys.
-Aaron
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Post by eljib on Feb 3, 2006 4:19:58 GMT -5
I just found a 50K audio DUAL pot at the link RW posted in this thread. Does this offer switching or does it just move two pots at the same time?
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Post by jhng on Feb 3, 2006 6:07:24 GMT -5
 This is the basic concept for the two "Mid-on" switches. It's dead simple. The two switches are shown in the "push/pull-down" position. if you want I can try to modify the S-Tastic wiring diagram to show it in "picture" form. The phase switch isn't shown as it is pretty standard. The Neck and Bridge are wired together using the S-Tastic 5way switch wiring. I suggest one tone for Neck and Bridge and one for Middle pup. The S-Tastic wiring uses one pole of the switch for the tone capacitors, I suggest something similar for the Neck and Bridge tone control. Separate middle tone control is useful: I suggest 0.045uf. When the middle pickup is in series you can roll of the middle tone to get a really cool "half-series" sound with chunky bottom and clear top. Hastings |
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Post by Mini-Strat_Maine on Feb 3, 2006 10:07:37 GMT -5
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Post by eljib on Feb 4, 2006 13:21:54 GMT -5
I would love to have it in picture form, but I feel like I'm cheating. How 'bout I try drawing up a picture version and then you guys can critique it (but not on artistic merit, though)
-Aaron
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Post by eljib on Feb 4, 2006 13:23:41 GMT -5
Aw, who am I trying to kid. I just took another look at the schematic. Please modify a "picture" form for me. Thanks!
Hastings: What happened to the idea of having separate tone controls for N and B? If I use one for NB and one for M, which value do you recommend for the NB tone: .033, .022 or .01?
Is it possible to wire separate caps for N and B pups, but still use the same pot? If such a thing is immpossible (or at least not recommended) could someone explain why?
-Aaron
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Post by eljib on Feb 5, 2006 15:58:32 GMT -5
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Post by eljib on Feb 5, 2006 15:58:58 GMT -5
URL="http://photobucket.com"]  [/URL] This is as far as I can get right now. I know I need to connect the outs on the phase switch, but I don't know where to. Also, I can't figure out how to do the series/parallel switches, or how to connect the tone controls. Could use some help on the capacitor suggestion from hastings, too. I eagerly await your criticism. -Aaron EDIT: If possible I would like the volume pot to serve as the Mid On/Parallel switch. NB Tone for Mid On/Series. Mid tone for phasing. |
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, but surely you can see the benefit of lights in helping you keep track of 26 positions.
